Qantas AIPA FWA Ruling Thurs 17th Jan

[Just Relaxin]

Sandy Palms

I hope you are not in charge of doing any maths on board an a/c.

A simple example:
A pilot on $100,000 pa gets a pay rise of 3% on 1/1/2011 with a further increase of 3% on 1/1/2012 with the back pay to be paid on 1/1/2013. Even ignoring compounding the back pay would be $9,000.

Now the same pilot gets a 4.5% pay rise on the 1/1/2012 to cover the same period from 1/1/2011 to 1/1/2013. The back pay on 1/1/2013 is $4,500.
Surprisingly Qantas has exactly halved their back pay liability by gaining a pay freeze of 12 months plus only then giving 4.5% not 6%. The flow on effects of this grow exponentially the longer the pilot has a career ie the younger he is. This is a financial catastrophe for the pilot(s) and an enormous win for Qantas.

They also got away with a 6 month pay freeze in EBA7 Rollover with the 2010 pay rise delayed to July of that year. I will let you do the maths if the $100,000 above is multiplied by some factor in the real world!

[virginexcess]

The sad message here is that we all need to hope that the labour government isreturned at the next election. There would not have been as good an outcome if the coalition were in power.

[AnQrKa]

"This is a financial catastrophe for the pilot(s)"

Get a grip!!!!

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The Aviation expert has called it - Pilots lose to Qantas.

Pilots lose to Qantas - The West Australian


The backpay loss is correctly calculated by Just Relaxin when comparing it to a typical 3% outcome. If memory serves me correctly though the AIPA claim was only for 2.5% pa.

The sad message here is that we all need to hope that the labour government isreturned at the next election. There would not have been as good an outcome if the coalition were in power.

It was Labor who created the law that allowed them to ground the fleet and have the Govt intervene. It was Labor who decided to intervene. It was Labor who sought in their FWA application to have all pia stopped (as opposed to only having the Qantas lockout/grounding stopped). Labor worked hand in fist with Qantas to screw all of us by preventing us securing greater job security clauses.

The LAME 2008 dispute was run under Johnies laws and we never encountered such an issue. I will not be voting Labor.

[caneworm]

* Allowances in Australian ports to be paid via payroll retrospectively.

Don't think this will be received too well.
Would not allowances paid by EFT into a nominated a/c on day one of the trip be better?

[The Full Monty]

"The hard part about playing 'chicken' is knowing when to flinch"

Quote from actor Scott Glenn (playing Captain Bart Mancuso) in The Hunt for Red October.

Hot and Heavy, your right about negotiating a better deal - the offer Qantas made to AIPA on the last day of the 21 day compulsory conciliation (which AIPA walked away from as our negotiators were instructed by COM not move from their "final position") was much better for pilots than this decision.

That QF offer document was floating around some AIPA folk for a while (although that 21 day period was supposed to be confidential). I'm sure its confidential now!

[theheadmaster]

Monty, perhaps you can explain why you feel the QF offer was better? What did it contain?

[Tuner 2]

The Full Monty,

In what way was the offer better? A little more pay than this determination? I don't think pay was ever the big issue here.

Amazing how quickly some people turn into Monday morning quarterbacks

[Just Relaxin]

rmcdonal


You’re worse at maths than Sandy Palms

Sloooowwwly:

$100,000 at 3% for all of 2011 is $3000. Then you also get another $3000 in 2012 as you still have the 3% increase. Total $6000. The 3% is not a one off it’s in your pay forever.

Then you get another $3000 in 2012 for the second 3% increase of 1/1/2012. Total $9000.

Where did you guys go to school?!

[Transition Layer]

Pilots lose to Qantas

Geoffrey Thomas you are a joke! The grounding of the airline cost far more than any "win" Qantas may have achieved.

Neither side "won" this battle, it will drag out some more and Qantas will stall negotiations again, just as they are now doing with the SH Agreement.

[theheadmaster]

3% off $100k is paid out over the year, so 2011-2102 =$3000 and 2012-2013 =$3000, total $6000 not $9000. You have included 2013-14 which hasn't happened yet.

$100K. 3%. at 1 Jan 2011.
1 Jan 2011 to 1 Jan 2012 = $3K
1 Jan 2012 to 1 Jan 2013 = $3K
= $6K backpay on first 3%
THEN 3% at 1 Jan 2012
1 Jan 2012 to 1 Jan 2013 = $3K on second 3% increase.

Total, not accounting for compounding effect = $9K.

What was determined, less compounding effect:
4.5% at 1 Jan 2012
Total backpay 1 Jan 2011 to 1 Jan 2013 = $4.5K

The simple addition (ie non-compounding) wage increase from 1 Jan 2011 to 1 Jan 2014 would be 12% under what was asked by AIPA (ie 3% from 1 Jan 2011), what was achieved was 10.5%.

Note that the last pay increase under the previous EBA was 3% at 1 Jul 2010, so another 3% 6 months later was not a realistic expectation. QF wanted no back pay at all. Overall, I don't think what was awarded was unreasonable. Neither party has been rewarded for not coming to a timely agreement.

The big winner (if Qantas ever hires again) is no B scale for new entrants.

[Captain Gidday]

The big winner (if Qantas ever hires again) is no B scale for new entrants.

Oh yeah, there's a B scale, all right. It's just that it's located in all the other constituent companies in the Qantas Group!

[ruprecht]

"This is a financial catastrophe for the pilot(s)"

Get a grip!!!!

+1

This may be a lot of things, but "catastrophe" is not one of them....

[Keg]

WRT bacpay, our last pay rise was Jul 10. So whilst we may have liked to have received 3% from 1 Jan 11, that was always unlikely. I'd always worked on the probability of 3% from 1 Jul 11 and then another 3% 1 Jul 12. That would have lead to back pay of $6K using the figures above- 12 months of 3% and 6 months of 6%- and a pay rise due in Jul this year. Instead we've got $4.5K back pay but a pay rate now 1.5% higher than I expected but that won't change until Jan next year when it will be 10.5%.

So we've lost 6 months back pay I reckon and a 6 month pay freeze.

As with Ruprecht and AnQrka, this hardly constitutes a financial 'disaster' let alone a 'catastrophe'.

[Keg]

PS: Keep in mind the previous EBA had an additional pay rise hidden beind the 'headline rate' when the classic was retired. I think it was 3% or so. It's how we managed to get our pay rises set to mid year on the last EBA.

[DirectAnywhere]

Given annual CPI was 2% in the Sept quarter it's not a bad deal at the moment.

[virginexcess]

It was Labor who created the law that allowed them to ground the fleet and have the Govt intervene. It was Labor who decided to intervene. It was Labor who sought in their FWA application to have all pia stopped (as opposed to only having the Qantas lockout/grounding stopped). Labor worked hand in fist with Qantas to screw all of us by preventing us securing greater job security clauses.

Agreed, and I strongly suspect it would have been a lot worse under a coalition government.

[Twin Beech]

The cost of living has increased much more than that, especially in the tax brackets suffered to one degree or another by most pilots. Loss of the private health cover rebate, carbon tax, reduced super contribution, novated leases being kneecapped, etc.

Energy, school fees, psychological counseling after every Joyce pronouncment...these things all add up.

[Mstr Caution]

Don't forget pilots scored big time with the $100 travel voucher in August 2012


Haven't read the determination in full, but did pilots get a win on the facials & preflight massages.

[Ken Borough]

And some are banging on about 'loss' of back pay. Pity about the poor shareholders who've not only suffered a pay freeze but also a significant reduction in the value of their asset. At least you are being well paid: get a grip and be thankful.

Standing by for incoming!