5th September QF Announcement
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The only problem with that analysis (which I accept) is that if the average punter paid $2,000 to UK and return and FF took $1280 of that, no wonder International is losing money.
Now lets compare that to a thimble and pea trick, because thats about what it is.
Now lets compare that to a thimble and pea trick, because thats about what it is.
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And that's (partly) why the FF Program is so profitable to QF.
Merchants have found that they can recoup the costs of the program by charging a fee for accepting a credit card for payment. Even Qantas/Jetstar do the same online with an outrageous fee that does not reflect the true cost.
The public cops it because they have no choice unless you have the Jetstar Mastercard. Then, no fee is charged, but they charge an annual fee for you to use it. It's become a common practice among airlines now to have their OWN card and cut out the middle man.
The list goes on.
We accept it because the card is convenient and the promise of lots of points to spend on travel is very inviting if you want to travel a lot.
The downside is trying to get a seat in the class you want and when you want it. Currently it's still difficult to get an upgrade when you want it.
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And here we were on PPrune thinking that those in QF management had been sniffing glue.
Fly QF from SYD-BKK & wait 5 hours plus for the connecting BA flight to LHR. Like really ? That's gonna work? What were these guys thinking?
BA has been shafted in the deal.
Thinking QF was continuing with the JSA. Moving QF pax to Asia to pickup their BA connecting flights to LHR. Good old QF telling porky pies, they were withdrawing from unprofitable routes between BKK / HKG to LHR. Where, at the time they were shifting full flights on premium fares.
When really the intention was to withdraw from the JSA. Reschedule the timetable from Australia to Asia to suit those travelling to Asia only (not Europe) Meanwhile jumping into bed with EK, avoiding LHR & servicing Europe via the Dubai hub.
In the meantime, Qantas makes some coin on the side leasing the landing slots in London to BA. Knowing that the QF frequent flyers travelling to mainland Europe with EK will want to avoid Heathrow & fly one stop to their European destination anyway.
MC.
Fly QF from SYD-BKK & wait 5 hours plus for the connecting BA flight to LHR. Like really ? That's gonna work? What were these guys thinking?
BA has been shafted in the deal.
Thinking QF was continuing with the JSA. Moving QF pax to Asia to pickup their BA connecting flights to LHR. Good old QF telling porky pies, they were withdrawing from unprofitable routes between BKK / HKG to LHR. Where, at the time they were shifting full flights on premium fares.
When really the intention was to withdraw from the JSA. Reschedule the timetable from Australia to Asia to suit those travelling to Asia only (not Europe) Meanwhile jumping into bed with EK, avoiding LHR & servicing Europe via the Dubai hub.
In the meantime, Qantas makes some coin on the side leasing the landing slots in London to BA. Knowing that the QF frequent flyers travelling to mainland Europe with EK will want to avoid Heathrow & fly one stop to their European destination anyway.
MC.
Last edited by Mstr Caution; 6th Sep 2012 at 12:07.
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Originally Posted by Liv's
Romulus,
The majority of what you've outlined is already in place now, without the Emirates deal. What I was trying to allude to in my previous post was that for this deal to be a win for QF, the number of EK FF points redeemed on QF services has to exceed the number of QF FF points redeemed on EK services.
The majority of what you've outlined is already in place now, without the Emirates deal. What I was trying to allude to in my previous post was that for this deal to be a win for QF, the number of EK FF points redeemed on QF services has to exceed the number of QF FF points redeemed on EK services.
The mug punters who get their FF point with every transaction at Coles/Caltex/Optus/wherever build up that point base. QF and EK may be called upon to redeem trips for those points, they control the number of trips they will give away and when. Hence the angst at not being able to redeem points at will whenever, wherever (unless paying the premium anytime reward seats for the "luxury").
So QF and EK win because the costs are subsidised by all those other merchants (I'd really love to know the actual proportion of FF points earned on non airline activities) who then pay for people to fly. Or not fly if the points aren't redeemed. And put cash in QFs bank account. The overall pool is massively expanded by those merchants which is how both airlines can, and probably do, win.
Some time ago there was a thread that made the point that flying a Russian airline (S7) and buying a round trip business class ticket Sydney-Moscow cost about $2900 yet the first sector was QF Syd-Fra which, according to the QF website, costs around $6,000 if bought from QF.
To be on the very same plane.
I'd suggest that shows the level of fare that airlines charge each other, all we ever see are the retail fares offered to the mug punter.
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I agree that less SO's will be needed on the 380. 4 pilot ops to DXB, 2 pilot to LHR with the 7 hour flight time. Maybe they might augment during winter ops.
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Romulus,
I believe that 80-90% of frequent flyer points are earned through non aviation activities. However, 90% of redemptions are done via air travel.
I believe the margin on points to be at least 15% as a minimum i.e. co. buys the points at $1 and redeems them at $0.85. Not a bad business considering the lack of costs to run it.
I believe that 80-90% of frequent flyer points are earned through non aviation activities. However, 90% of redemptions are done via air travel.
I believe the margin on points to be at least 15% as a minimum i.e. co. buys the points at $1 and redeems them at $0.85. Not a bad business considering the lack of costs to run it.
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What EK does get though is cheap crews both flight and cabin and all other employees. Desert to build on is free as it is owned by the ruling family and cheap cheap construction costs due slave labour thus giving it a huge advantage over other competitors like BA,QF,LH etc etc etc.
Even SQ with cheap labour cannot compete with EK because land is expensive to build on.
Even SQ with cheap labour cannot compete with EK because land is expensive to build on.
Last edited by millerscourt; 6th Sep 2012 at 13:33.
Gonna get interesting for reservations/check in/cabin crew.
QF have Chairman's Lounge Members/Platinum/Gold/Silver/Bronze FFs
Not to mention the OneWorld Emerald/Ruby/Sapphire.
EK have Gold/Silver/Blue Skywards.
Does this point to reshuffling of the FF programs to align the tiers? And will QF Chairman's Lounge members still get all the perks they are used to in DXB (i.e. private lounge, guaranteed bookings/seats, limo service etc etc etc)
I suppose the reservations/onboard passenger lists will show the respective airline tier designator and airline code next to the pax names. Add another foot of length to the printout then!
QF have Chairman's Lounge Members/Platinum/Gold/Silver/Bronze FFs
Not to mention the OneWorld Emerald/Ruby/Sapphire.
EK have Gold/Silver/Blue Skywards.
Does this point to reshuffling of the FF programs to align the tiers? And will QF Chairman's Lounge members still get all the perks they are used to in DXB (i.e. private lounge, guaranteed bookings/seats, limo service etc etc etc)
I suppose the reservations/onboard passenger lists will show the respective airline tier designator and airline code next to the pax names. Add another foot of length to the printout then!
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Read an email today which states there will be a celebratory BBQ tomorrow at the brand new multi-million dollar 'campus'.
How good is this outfit eh ? Not only do they hatch a plan that will make thousands of operational staff redundant, whilst preserving the every increasing gravy train of consultants / management and other hangers on, they then have a party to celebrate the job losses !.
Ar$eholes of the highest order. Every single one of them.....
How good is this outfit eh ? Not only do they hatch a plan that will make thousands of operational staff redundant, whilst preserving the every increasing gravy train of consultants / management and other hangers on, they then have a party to celebrate the job losses !.
Ar$eholes of the highest order. Every single one of them.....
So basically QF keep SYD/MEL - LHR. EK/SQ/CX get the other capital cities with QF getting a commission from EK via code share.
SQ/CX pick up the secondary Asian cities via their hubs. Who wants to fly QF to SIN and then endure a Jetstar flight. Preheaps if QF had a premium carrier based in Asia to transfer their passengers onto.....
SQ/CX pick up the secondary Asian cities via their hubs. Who wants to fly QF to SIN and then endure a Jetstar flight. Preheaps if QF had a premium carrier based in Asia to transfer their passengers onto.....
Last edited by Metro man; 6th Sep 2012 at 13:45.
short flights long nights
EK has stated many times that the 787 is too small for them.They are pushing Boeing for a 777 "NG". I may be wrong, but I dont think EK wants the 787, I am pretty sure if they did an order would already be in.
There is absolutely no requirement to have more than 2 crew going anywhere in Europe from Dubai at any time of year. That is one of the 'secrets' to EK's rise. Geographically central to most of the worlds population with the exception of The Americas and the Antipodes.
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Joyce on Sky Business stated they hope to maintain jobs in the medium to long term.
It seems to me that the midget has spelled out quite clearly how this is all going to work, even if he had to correct himself in the process. The flights are code share services, and with the exception of a few, will obviously be operated by EK. Eventually I'd expect even the few red-tail flights to be dropped. The vision is for QF international to become a virtual international airline, a strong domestic brand and network feeding a codeshare international network, where QF doesn't operate any aircraft whatsoever (internationally).
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You have to hand it to AJ this time. This alliance is a real master stroke!!
By getting Emirates to babysit their customers for a while it will allow QF to operate as a virtual airline. Virtual in the sense that in the main it is effectively, as far as international operations are concerned a travel agency where it can sell tickets and not incur operational risk just sit back and cream profit off the top. The utopia of all business!!
Meanwhile in the back office the HR department have been tasked with making redundant all operational staff and crew that are now surplus to requirements until there are a fraction of the former workforce left.
A little down the line AJ or more likely his successor will use the cash and the profitable accounts to build up the operational side of qantas again with lower wages and much inferior conditions and move to take customers back from Emirates.
Big question is Will they come back?
The mantra 'treat each others customers as our own.' may not work for emirates customers as they are used to a far superior product that the current qantas offering.
More to Follow
The Kelpie
By getting Emirates to babysit their customers for a while it will allow QF to operate as a virtual airline. Virtual in the sense that in the main it is effectively, as far as international operations are concerned a travel agency where it can sell tickets and not incur operational risk just sit back and cream profit off the top. The utopia of all business!!
Meanwhile in the back office the HR department have been tasked with making redundant all operational staff and crew that are now surplus to requirements until there are a fraction of the former workforce left.
A little down the line AJ or more likely his successor will use the cash and the profitable accounts to build up the operational side of qantas again with lower wages and much inferior conditions and move to take customers back from Emirates.
Big question is Will they come back?
The mantra 'treat each others customers as our own.' may not work for emirates customers as they are used to a far superior product that the current qantas offering.
More to Follow
The Kelpie
Wait there, QF now get to carry punters that want to travel to somewhere other than LHR out of OZ. All be it just to DXB, but still better than they do now. Maybe the Greek, Leb, Itialian and Maltese etc ozzies will consider the Rat again. If done properly these two services from SYD and MEL could be increased.
But wait there, one man at the table this morning hatched, grew and actively grows his business, the other one was from Qantas.
Bummer,
the Don
But wait there, one man at the table this morning hatched, grew and actively grows his business, the other one was from Qantas.
Bummer,
the Don
Words just fail me.
Emirates will eat Qantas alive, one passenger at a time. Someone ought to teach Joyce about product differentiation. How can anyone possibly understand this ricochet? Last year we were all going to China! Everything now smells of desperation.
Emirates will eat Qantas alive, one passenger at a time. Someone ought to teach Joyce about product differentiation. How can anyone possibly understand this ricochet? Last year we were all going to China! Everything now smells of desperation.
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The Greek, Leb, Itialian and Maltese etc ozzies are unlikely to consider the Rat again. They have been using Emirates for well over a decade. As most of them are now senior citizens they like simplicity, ie get to their destination with one airline. Good luck to the travel agent trying to convince them to fly QF to Dubai and then EK from there, and vice versa again for the return.