QANTAS - WHERE TO NOW?
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Don't get angry at each other, we are all but simple engineers.
As the great man said, the meek shall inherit the earth. The love of money is the root of all evil, the last eba the the most evil of all time, more than we even asked for. Ask yourself, why throw so much at the wretched? There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Look after each other and watch your brothers back.
As the great man said, the meek shall inherit the earth. The love of money is the root of all evil, the last eba the the most evil of all time, more than we even asked for. Ask yourself, why throw so much at the wretched? There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Look after each other and watch your brothers back.
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@ mahatmacoat
Understand this. No one is letting management sack 200, just that no one can stop them, not even the ALAEA, AWU or any other by-standing union. If you haven't got the message yet, management have said they'll accept volunteers for redundancy, then the rest will be compulsory. No consultation is going to stop that.
Overtime is not saving any managers. What has let everyone down over the years, not just now, were the self-serving that took the bait for going on outstation postings, not claiming their entitlements, so they could get more travelling engineer jobs, or those that wanted to do a certain "elevated" position, and were given it if they bent the company's way. This has been, to use a certain term used by Tony Sheldon, a slow bake by the company on us, and many engineers allowed it to happen.
Engineering is cut so deep, there's not much left to cut. How many fought when SYD HM was shut down in 2005? Who helped those guys. Who helped S.I.T. when wave after wave of redundancies took place due to "loss of foreign operator contracts? Who helped to stop MEL HM being shut down this year? How many engineers would have signed a new contract to be let in back to work last year after AJ shut the company down, had it got to the stage you lost a week's pay or so?
Mahatmar, if I decide to come on to your crew to do some O/T, I will, and don't worry, I wouldn't want to sit next to you, the stench may make me dry reach.
This is round 2 of 10 so are you going to let them sack 200 and then work overtime to save the Managers? If you do they will cut deeper. Overtime is killing us. Don't come in on my crew and if you try don't sit near me.
Overtime is not saving any managers. What has let everyone down over the years, not just now, were the self-serving that took the bait for going on outstation postings, not claiming their entitlements, so they could get more travelling engineer jobs, or those that wanted to do a certain "elevated" position, and were given it if they bent the company's way. This has been, to use a certain term used by Tony Sheldon, a slow bake by the company on us, and many engineers allowed it to happen.
Engineering is cut so deep, there's not much left to cut. How many fought when SYD HM was shut down in 2005? Who helped those guys. Who helped S.I.T. when wave after wave of redundancies took place due to "loss of foreign operator contracts? Who helped to stop MEL HM being shut down this year? How many engineers would have signed a new contract to be let in back to work last year after AJ shut the company down, had it got to the stage you lost a week's pay or so?
Mahatmar, if I decide to come on to your crew to do some O/T, I will, and don't worry, I wouldn't want to sit next to you, the stench may make me dry reach.
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QF94 you are spot on with some of your analysis. We are to blame for many of the problems we now face. As I was once told by someone who taught me when I was an Apprentice " the company will get away with whatever you let them get away with". I've worked with countless morons who wouldn't be prepared to do anything to support someone else or defend our Industry for us and future generations.
A culture of "I'm alright Jack....f#@! you" has now come back to bite us all on the arse and even know when death is at the Hangar doors, these same morons just ramp up that same attitude. I hope you give yourselves a pat on the back when it's all done and dusted and you explain to your kids how you helped destroy any prospect for them to ever work in this Industry when it no longer exists.
A culture of "I'm alright Jack....f#@! you" has now come back to bite us all on the arse and even know when death is at the Hangar doors, these same morons just ramp up that same attitude. I hope you give yourselves a pat on the back when it's all done and dusted and you explain to your kids how you helped destroy any prospect for them to ever work in this Industry when it no longer exists.
Last edited by genxfrog; 16th Nov 2012 at 13:21.
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Understand this. No one is letting management sack 200, just that no one can stop them, not even the ALAEA, AWU or any other by-standing union. If you haven't got the message yet, management have said they'll accept volunteers for redundancy, then the rest will be compulsory. No consultation is going to stop that.
AWU can't stop them - Agree
management have said they'll accept volunteers for redundancy, then the rest will be compulsory - Agree
No consultation is going to stop that - Agree
no one can stop them, not even the ALAEA - I don't agree here.
We can stop them and you can help. We aren't going to talk our way out of it via consulatation but Qantas are breaking every rule under the aviation sun to force in unsafe change. From discussions with CASA, MOD is only a few steps away from being put on the scrap heap. This will reverse numbers the other way. HM Mel may have been shut but again, CASA are a poofteenth from ordering Qantas to shut down a line in Bne unless they hire more staff.
CN is destroying the business and making mistakes on the way. The lapdogs are being told what to do by people with no Engineering exprience and leaving a trail of evidence a mile wide. Please help gather the evidence and send it to us.
CN can only destroy Qantas Engineering while he is still there. He only stays if he keeps them compliant and planes are getting out on time. With the changes he has made (and wants to make), this only happens if people bend the rules.
Don't give up the fight guys. This battle is a long way from over either way.
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Overtime will cost you your job along with your mates. Consider this.
They need 20 for o/t in SAM. If nobody comes in and aircraft go late then they have to answer to other departments. Where are our fukcen planes? If this goes on long enough they will work out that they can't sack so many of us if any at all.
Overtime costs jobs. Its pretty simple to work out.
They need 20 for o/t in SAM. If nobody comes in and aircraft go late then they have to answer to other departments. Where are our fukcen planes? If this goes on long enough they will work out that they can't sack so many of us if any at all.
Overtime costs jobs. Its pretty simple to work out.
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Quote..Mahatmacoat..Dont come in on my crew and if you try, dont sit near me.
No.QF94 ...Go take a bath, your the one that stinks. Spoken like a true Jack
from the old days, or a true hypocrite from the present.
Genxfrog ...Well said.
No.QF94 ...Go take a bath, your the one that stinks. Spoken like a true Jack
from the old days, or a true hypocrite from the present.
Genxfrog ...Well said.
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Who would want to be a manpower planner at SYD Base now, the crew structures have fallen apart and unworkable due to lack of manpower and VR and MtX is yet to come!!!
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The whole O/T thing has me a little annoyed too. I personally won't be engaging in it because I don't believe that in this current climate when so many jobs are at stake that it is sensible to.
I have had discussions with people who have no qualms about doing O/T and they put forward some valid points supporting their stance, however, I just can't act in the same way that they do. Perhaps a moral stance is out of line..
The very fact that for months O/T has been almost non-existent and since the announcement it has been a virtual open slather should be be speaking volumes. It looks very much to me as though the company intends to clear as much work as it can prior to culling, and all our O/T sculling colleagues are doing is helping to accelerate this process. Well done guys!
I have had discussions with people who have no qualms about doing O/T and they put forward some valid points supporting their stance, however, I just can't act in the same way that they do. Perhaps a moral stance is out of line..
The very fact that for months O/T has been almost non-existent and since the announcement it has been a virtual open slather should be be speaking volumes. It looks very much to me as though the company intends to clear as much work as it can prior to culling, and all our O/T sculling colleagues are doing is helping to accelerate this process. Well done guys!
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I actually think they are clearing all the work so they can have a 'successful' roll out of mxi to the 74/76 fleet……
ie, bugger all work so less chance of grounding the whole fleet!
of course, this will all be happening right about when 200 people are being escorted by the yes-men to the gates…….
Sheer genius!!
Say No to Nappystains - Say No to OT
ie, bugger all work so less chance of grounding the whole fleet!
of course, this will all be happening right about when 200 people are being escorted by the yes-men to the gates…….
Sheer genius!!
Say No to Nappystains - Say No to OT
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It seems that there are many paradoxes currently in the SAM business.
Employees are being told that there is not enough work to justify their employment and yet the overtime requests are still coming through thick and fast.
Employees are told that new gen aircraft are technologically advanced and require less maintenance but the reality is the A380 bucket is overflowing, and the aircraft are not fixing themselves.*
Employee feedback meetings are being held weekly by the management and yet no believable answers or strategies are being presented.
There are two main components that drive the efficiencies on the shop floor.
First is the can do attitude of the Qantas engineer.*
Second is the 12 hour roster.
The can do attitude and dedication of the Qantas engineer is the single most effective tool that enables the efficiencies on the floor.*
This quality is something that cannot be measured by any accounting model and is an enigma to the management types as they have no direct control over it.
The 12 hour roster was adopted by the management and worker alike and has served both parties well.
However it appears that it also has created a corrupted labour hours data set that is now working against the engineers.
SAM is a supply / demand business.*
Aircraft numbers go down, there is a need to reduce the manpower.
To test the supply vs labour paradigm that is being used for the need to reduce the workforce, a reversion to an 8 hour roster will provide a much needed "resetting of the clock".
Engineers know the importance of working with accurate data.
It is therefore imperative that they provide an accurate data set to the management in order for them to crunch their numbers.
The idea is to give Chris Nassensteins' strategy team a more realistic perspective as to what labour hours are required, which will hopefully provide a more measured response to the impending redundant positions.
An 8 hour roster will capture those lost hours everyone is looking for.
Employees are being told that there is not enough work to justify their employment and yet the overtime requests are still coming through thick and fast.
Employees are told that new gen aircraft are technologically advanced and require less maintenance but the reality is the A380 bucket is overflowing, and the aircraft are not fixing themselves.*
Employee feedback meetings are being held weekly by the management and yet no believable answers or strategies are being presented.
There are two main components that drive the efficiencies on the shop floor.
First is the can do attitude of the Qantas engineer.*
Second is the 12 hour roster.
The can do attitude and dedication of the Qantas engineer is the single most effective tool that enables the efficiencies on the floor.*
This quality is something that cannot be measured by any accounting model and is an enigma to the management types as they have no direct control over it.
The 12 hour roster was adopted by the management and worker alike and has served both parties well.
However it appears that it also has created a corrupted labour hours data set that is now working against the engineers.
SAM is a supply / demand business.*
Aircraft numbers go down, there is a need to reduce the manpower.
To test the supply vs labour paradigm that is being used for the need to reduce the workforce, a reversion to an 8 hour roster will provide a much needed "resetting of the clock".
Engineers know the importance of working with accurate data.
It is therefore imperative that they provide an accurate data set to the management in order for them to crunch their numbers.
The idea is to give Chris Nassensteins' strategy team a more realistic perspective as to what labour hours are required, which will hopefully provide a more measured response to the impending redundant positions.
An 8 hour roster will capture those lost hours everyone is looking for.
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@ ALAEA Fed Sec
Regarding the hiring of more staff for a line in BNE. This would more than likely come from those that don't want to be shown the door just yet, and accept a relocation to that port. With MOD heading for the scrapheap, we'll just wait and see. As for the numbers, as each 747 leaves our shores to not return, this will build up numbers should MOD fail. Less aircraft means less engineers required, but may transfer to going back to pre-MOD days.
If this evidence is so wide, why aren't CASA doing something about it? Being a poofteenth away from ordering anything, is just as good as "keeping an eye on it" until it fails, and then say "I told you so".
Not sticking up for CN, but hasn't engineering been eroded and destroyed by D Cox and M Harris before the current regime? Cox shut down HM SYD. CN shut down HM MEL. Same game, different players. As for the S.I.T. redundancies, there has been redundancies under every manager since 2003.
@ engine overspeed
In my nearly 30 years in the aviation game, I am not doing anything different now than when I started. I was apprenticed to fix aircraft and still do. I don't do O/T for the benefit of the company. I don't make something work that shouldn't work and I don't stop something from working that should be working.
I have always done O/T, but not with scheduled regularity. My lifestyle doesn't depend on O/T, but I will do it when a large bill is in, Christmas, car repairs, etc.
Engine O/S, whether you believe I'm an old Jack or current hypocrite is of no relevance to me whatsoever and has no bearing on what I do or don't do. Just keep babbling.
For all of those that believe that cutting the O/T and working to schedule and holding everything up is going to save jobs, dream on.
Remember October 2011 when QANTAS AIRLINES WAS SHUT DOWN! Who stopped them? Who won that battle in the end? If you cut off your nose to spite your face and ban O/T that is your problem.
Despite what has been said or not yet said, jobs are going both now and in the future, O/T or no O/T. We can fight all we want, but the end result will be the same. Out the door and on the dole queue.
Is it defeatist? Not in the slightest. Just looking ahead as the door hits us all in the rear end as we're escorted out.
no one can stop them, not even the ALAEA - I don't agree here.
We can stop them and you can help. We aren't going to talk our way out of it via consulatation but Qantas are breaking every rule under the aviation sun to force in unsafe change. From discussions with CASA, MOD is only a few steps away from being put on the scrap heap. This will reverse numbers the other way. HM Mel may have been shut but again, CASA are a poofteenth from ordering Qantas to shut down a line in Bne unless they hire more staff.
We can stop them and you can help. We aren't going to talk our way out of it via consulatation but Qantas are breaking every rule under the aviation sun to force in unsafe change. From discussions with CASA, MOD is only a few steps away from being put on the scrap heap. This will reverse numbers the other way. HM Mel may have been shut but again, CASA are a poofteenth from ordering Qantas to shut down a line in Bne unless they hire more staff.
CN is destroying the business and making mistakes on the way. The lapdogs are being told what to do by people with no Engineering exprience and leaving a trail of evidence a mile wide. Please help gather the evidence and send it to us.
CN can only destroy Qantas Engineering while he is still there. He only stays if he keeps them compliant and planes are getting out on time. With the changes he has made (and wants to make), this only happens if people bend the rules.
Don't give up the fight guys. This battle is a long way from over either way.
Don't give up the fight guys. This battle is a long way from over either way.
@ engine overspeed
Quote..Mahatmacoat..Dont come in on my crew and if you try, dont sit near me.
No.QF94 ...Go take a bath, your the one that stinks. Spoken like a true Jack
from the old days, or a true hypocrite from the present.
Genxfrog ...Well said.
No.QF94 ...Go take a bath, your the one that stinks. Spoken like a true Jack
from the old days, or a true hypocrite from the present.
Genxfrog ...Well said.
I have always done O/T, but not with scheduled regularity. My lifestyle doesn't depend on O/T, but I will do it when a large bill is in, Christmas, car repairs, etc.
Engine O/S, whether you believe I'm an old Jack or current hypocrite is of no relevance to me whatsoever and has no bearing on what I do or don't do. Just keep babbling.
For all of those that believe that cutting the O/T and working to schedule and holding everything up is going to save jobs, dream on.
Remember October 2011 when QANTAS AIRLINES WAS SHUT DOWN! Who stopped them? Who won that battle in the end? If you cut off your nose to spite your face and ban O/T that is your problem.
Despite what has been said or not yet said, jobs are going both now and in the future, O/T or no O/T. We can fight all we want, but the end result will be the same. Out the door and on the dole queue.
Is it defeatist? Not in the slightest. Just looking ahead as the door hits us all in the rear end as we're escorted out.
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@ The masked goatrider
Consider this. When aircraft aren't getting done and being asked where are they? You know what the answer will be? F***ing engineers and their O/T ban. They're costing the company money and driving our passengers away. This is what will be told to the disgruntled and overly delayed passengers in the terminal. This will make the news, and we know how the media love to give it to QANTAS and we all know what the spin from Coward St Mascot will be. "Engineers have taken unprotected industrial action in the form of O/T bans due to upcoming redundancies, blah, blah, blah".
Just remember, we don't have the upper hand. Never forget Ocotber 29 2011, the day QANTAS was shut down after nearly 91 years of continual service. The unions and the government could do nothing to stop it then, and can't stop the redundancies now.
Overtime will cost you your job along with your mates. Consider this.
They need 20 for o/t in SAM. If nobody comes in and aircraft go late then they have to answer to other departments. Where are our fukcen planes? If this goes on long enough they will work out that they can't sack so many of us if any at all.
Overtime costs jobs. Its pretty simple to work out.
They need 20 for o/t in SAM. If nobody comes in and aircraft go late then they have to answer to other departments. Where are our fukcen planes? If this goes on long enough they will work out that they can't sack so many of us if any at all.
Overtime costs jobs. Its pretty simple to work out.
Just remember, we don't have the upper hand. Never forget Ocotber 29 2011, the day QANTAS was shut down after nearly 91 years of continual service. The unions and the government could do nothing to stop it then, and can't stop the redundancies now.
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Consider this. When aircraft aren't getting done and being asked where are they? You know what the answer will be? F***ing engineers and their O/T ban. They're costing the company money and driving our passengers away. This is what will be told to the disgruntled and overly delayed passengers in the terminal. This will make the news, and we know how the media love to give it to QANTAS and we all know what the spin from Coward St Mascot will be. "Engineers have taken unprotected industrial action in the form of O/T bans due to upcoming redundancies, blah, blah, blah".
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QF engineering is in damage control,whole of aircraft engineering guys all over the world is talking about what the management is doing to their staff,not good for the airline,Tim of emirates said he agree what AJ has done in QF but he dare not do it in EK ,they would have sacked him maybe he can sack the indians and Bangladeshi over there try sacking the locals.
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Too little too late are you kidding!!! This is round 2 of 10
Nasty, Lowy and Harass promised Cliffy and Joyci that they will cull QE. It is a pure numbers game to achieve an industrial agenda and aircraft maintenance, secondary.
QFuture.
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Overtime has been growing steadily for some time now not because they are trying to clear the books but because they need to clear the work. Try and get anything defered, it takes an act of god!
Work is stacking up and while they may clear the number of engineers it won't make any difference to the amount of work growing. They can move the work offshore but the engineering cost will still skyrocket because now there is no-one to oversee what we are being ripped off for and the work still has to be done.
I am resigned to the fact that QF engineering will die in Sydney, it will still have to be done here but not by QF, and not to the world class standard we set.
Work is stacking up and while they may clear the number of engineers it won't make any difference to the amount of work growing. They can move the work offshore but the engineering cost will still skyrocket because now there is no-one to oversee what we are being ripped off for and the work still has to be done.
I am resigned to the fact that QF engineering will die in Sydney, it will still have to be done here but not by QF, and not to the world class standard we set.
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Engineers have to work a "reasonable" amount of overtime. It 's in the agreement.
The company will always pull the "overtime ban " card at times like these if ALL staff cease working overtime. The practice should be a CONTROLLED amount of overtime.
This can be done by in house agreement so it somewhat satisfies those who will work no matter what, as after all, some is better than none, and it gets shared around.
Co -operation is what is needed..... Not confrontation.
The company will always pull the "overtime ban " card at times like these if ALL staff cease working overtime. The practice should be a CONTROLLED amount of overtime.
This can be done by in house agreement so it somewhat satisfies those who will work no matter what, as after all, some is better than none, and it gets shared around.
Co -operation is what is needed..... Not confrontation.
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@ 1me
I never said there was an O/T ban, but that is how it will be perceived. Particularly those that have had O/T on a regular basis, or always made themselves available, and all of a sudden they're not able to make it for what ever reasons. I know the company cannot force you to do O/T, nor should they. What you do with your time outside your normal roster is no one's business other than your own, and you do with it as you wish.
Just referring to a few here that are banning or refusing to do O/T or smear those that wish to do it and some of what people had to say about it. Their words, not mine.
Each one to their own. Just as those that have their reasons for not doing O/T, should not be pushing their views onto others that wish to do O/T.
@ mahamacoat
@ The masked goatrider
@ engine overspeed
@ 1me
Which O/T ban are you referring to QF94? There is no ban as far as I am aware.. The company cannot force an employee to work O/T. I, myself, have kids to look after and other family committments that currently preclude me from engaging in work outside my normal roster. I'm sure there are many others who are in the same boat or are unable to make themselves available for other genuine reasons. If you are able to take up the slack on behalf of your SAM brothers then good for you!
Just referring to a few here that are banning or refusing to do O/T or smear those that wish to do it and some of what people had to say about it. Their words, not mine.
Each one to their own. Just as those that have their reasons for not doing O/T, should not be pushing their views onto others that wish to do O/T.
@ mahamacoat
Too little too late are you kidding!!! This is round 2 of 10 so are you going to let them sack 200 and then work overtime to save the Managers? If you do they will cut deeper. Overtime is killing us. Don't come in on my crew and if you try don't sit near me.
I understand this
Quote:
Too little too late mate.
Sounds like you have given up. Just leave then. Don't ruin what the rest of us are willing to fight for. I don't want anyone around who wants to save Managment by working a stack of hours.
Quote:
Too little too late mate.
Sounds like you have given up. Just leave then. Don't ruin what the rest of us are willing to fight for. I don't want anyone around who wants to save Managment by working a stack of hours.
Overtime will cost you your job along with your mates. Consider this.
They need 20 for o/t in SAM. If nobody comes in and aircraft go late then they have to answer to other departments. Where are our fukcen planes? If this goes on long enough they will work out that they can't sack so many of us if any at all.
Overtime costs jobs. Its pretty simple to work out.
They need 20 for o/t in SAM. If nobody comes in and aircraft go late then they have to answer to other departments. Where are our fukcen planes? If this goes on long enough they will work out that they can't sack so many of us if any at all.
Overtime costs jobs. Its pretty simple to work out.
Quote..Mahatmacoat..Dont come in on my crew and if you try, dont sit near me.
No.QF94 ...Go take a bath, your the one that stinks. Spoken like a true Jack
from the old days, or a true hypocrite from the present.
Genxfrog ...Well said.
No.QF94 ...Go take a bath, your the one that stinks. Spoken like a true Jack
from the old days, or a true hypocrite from the present.
Genxfrog ...Well said.
The whole O/T thing has me a little annoyed too. I personally won't be engaging in it because I don't believe that in this current climate when so many jobs are at stake that it is sensible to.
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@ aeromedic
Agreed.
Engineers have to work a "reasonable" amount of overtime. It 's in the agreement.
The company will always pull the "overtime ban " card at times like these if ALL staff cease working overtime. The practice should be a CONTROLLED amount of overtime.
This can be done by in house agreement so it somewhat satisfies those who will work no matter what, as after all, some is better than none, and it gets shared around.
Co -operation is what is needed..... Not confrontation.
The company will always pull the "overtime ban " card at times like these if ALL staff cease working overtime. The practice should be a CONTROLLED amount of overtime.
This can be done by in house agreement so it somewhat satisfies those who will work no matter what, as after all, some is better than none, and it gets shared around.
Co -operation is what is needed..... Not confrontation.
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Each one to their own.
Remember October 2011 when QANTAS AIRLINES WAS SHUT DOWN! Who stopped them? Who won that battle in the end?