QANTAS - WHERE TO NOW?
You forgot one thing 7600.
Tiger is not there to make money. It's a strategic move to weaken Qantas in the oceana region. See if Qantas can milk the cow of domestic and cash up, they can then wage war in Singapores market. By keeping them competing in domestic by setting pricing, they reduce the yields and keep Qantas hungry.
Qantas are doing the same thing back to them with Jetstar Asia
Tiger is not there to make money. It's a strategic move to weaken Qantas in the oceana region. See if Qantas can milk the cow of domestic and cash up, they can then wage war in Singapores market. By keeping them competing in domestic by setting pricing, they reduce the yields and keep Qantas hungry.
Qantas are doing the same thing back to them with Jetstar Asia
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Gobo, no sorry with all due respect I can't agree with you there. Tiger does sweet FA in the Australian market, wouldn't touch QF domestic at all, and be little more than an annoyance to Jetstar (at least at this stage). The only reason it's not called "one time only" airlines is because someone in Africa already took that name! https://www.1time.aero/ I think Tiger flies something like 60 sectors a day IIRC, bugger all really.
That wasn't the hope of the Singaporeans however, they've been wanting in to the Ozzie market for as long as I can remember, and only went back on the AN deal as even they could see that at that stage News Corp had bled it dry and there was nothing worth buying. The LCC market offered an entry into AUS and they can then move up from there. But it simply hasn't worked. In contrast to Western management, who's idea of a long-term strategic business plan is what happens after lunch, Asian businesses are very patient and take a long-term perspective on their business. They obviously have confidence they'll be able to turn things around and make inroads to J* where none of us can see it. But that's certainly a long way off. I don't buy into the ego argument however. Sorry
That wasn't the hope of the Singaporeans however, they've been wanting in to the Ozzie market for as long as I can remember, and only went back on the AN deal as even they could see that at that stage News Corp had bled it dry and there was nothing worth buying. The LCC market offered an entry into AUS and they can then move up from there. But it simply hasn't worked. In contrast to Western management, who's idea of a long-term strategic business plan is what happens after lunch, Asian businesses are very patient and take a long-term perspective on their business. They obviously have confidence they'll be able to turn things around and make inroads to J* where none of us can see it. But that's certainly a long way off. I don't buy into the ego argument however. Sorry
7600
By only operating 60 sectors a day offering bottom basement prices at a huge loss, gives them pricing power in the market.
This in turn costs Jetstar/Qantas yield as they need to compete on a much larger scale. (One could argue Jetstar have done the same thing to Qantas).
Virgin used the same strategy with business. They have far fewer seats on their jets and went into the market a lot cheaper. Qantas needed to adjust more seats on a larger scale at a cheaper price. Put simply, their aircraft have more business class seats, and they have more aircraft with more business seats in total.
Business 101 matey.
By only operating 60 sectors a day offering bottom basement prices at a huge loss, gives them pricing power in the market.
This in turn costs Jetstar/Qantas yield as they need to compete on a much larger scale. (One could argue Jetstar have done the same thing to Qantas).
Virgin used the same strategy with business. They have far fewer seats on their jets and went into the market a lot cheaper. Qantas needed to adjust more seats on a larger scale at a cheaper price. Put simply, their aircraft have more business class seats, and they have more aircraft with more business seats in total.
Business 101 matey.
Last edited by The Green Goblin; 10th Sep 2012 at 00:34.
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Business 101 matey.
Regardless, I don't want to get in to an argument over it, you're free to believe whatever you like, and if you believe Tiger is making such a massive dent to the Qantas Group's bottom line, go for it. What I'll say is that isn't happening at the moment and possibly never will. The Singaporeans certainly believe differently and since it's their cash they're burning they can do with as they please. Given that they didn't pull out of Australia when most thought they would it's clear they're committed to the Australian market.
Edit: Just to elaborate on the above and make it clearer still what I'm alluding to. Imagine I began "Squark Airlines" operating a Cessna 152 RPT between Avalon and Adelaide. Humour me on the legalities of trying that. I sell my one available seat for 1 cent. "Business 101" would then say that J* will match the fare on all its flights between Avalon and ADL. But of course if it does it matches the fare AND the capacity ie it also sells ONE fare at 1 cent and proudly announces it's matching "1 cent fares". What's it done to its bottom line, absolutely nothing, nor has "Squawk Airlines" done anything to affect the fares on all the other destinations not serviced by my proud little 152. Smoke 'n' mirrors!
Last edited by Squawk-7600; 10th Sep 2012 at 01:22.
Do you feel better now? 
Remember we all are different, we think differently and we have very different ideas about how to achieve similar goals.
This does not I'm afraid mean that there is cans of VB laying next to a PC just because of a differing opinion to your own.
Perhaps you need to follow your mantra (7600) down comms and cool off a bit!
Remember we all are different, we think differently and we have very different ideas about how to achieve similar goals.
This does not I'm afraid mean that there is cans of VB laying next to a PC just because of a differing opinion to your own.
Perhaps you need to follow your mantra (7600) down comms and cool off a bit!
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Another chance gone
Did anyone see the AJ interview on Inside Business on Sunday, if not iView it. For once there was a chance to ask some hard questions, but from my point of view it was totally scripted, what a cop out!
Whoops, just forgot, Alan Kohler works for News Corp now.
Where is Ben when needed.
Whoops, just forgot, Alan Kohler works for News Corp now.
Where is Ben when needed.
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Goblin I think it's actually you who needs to cool down. Please re-read my post again. My comments about VB cans was a tongue in cheek comment about the target market of Jetstar/Tiger, and had absolutely nothing to do with you personally. I was implying you were a little smarter than to get sucked in to the hype these airlines use to attract customers before fleecing them. Please correct me if I'm mistaken 
Furthermore, it was actually ME who suggested that we have different opinions on this and if you would like to believe something other than my opinion that's entirely your right to do so.
Furthermore, it was actually ME who suggested that we have different opinions on this and if you would like to believe something other than my opinion that's entirely your right to do so.
Last edited by Squawk-7600; 10th Sep 2012 at 01:31.
Sunfish wrote:
It eventually dawns on management that they are captured. It doesn't dawn on the Board until later
It eventually dawns on management that they are captured. It doesn't dawn on the Board until later
Last edited by Captain Gidday; 10th Sep 2012 at 01:55.
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Alan Kohler and John Durie are two of my favorite business reporters and they were on Inside Business on Sunday when the Joyce interview went to air, but Ben asked the harder questions they didn't in this analysis of Joyce saying the 787s would fly to Europe via Dubai after 2016.
Qantas intends to fly 787-9s into Europe after 2016 | Plane Talking
Dunno about anyone else, but Joyce looked flustered to me.
These are the points he made.
Qantas intends to fly 787-9s into Europe after 2016 | Plane Talking
Dunno about anyone else, but Joyce looked flustered to me.
These are the points he made.
The Boeing 787-9s would, he said, fly to Dubai and beyond into continental Europe.
But that actually depends on a number of things.
1. Qantas has to exercise its options or purchase rights for the jets around 18 months before it intends to so use them, since it doesn’t hold any firm orders for them anymore since it announced their cancellation on 23 August.
2. Emirates has to co-operate.
3. The 787-9 has to deliver on its promises, and as a smaller jet nevertheless be competitive on a cost basis against the Boeing 777-300ERs flown by Emirates, as well as the A380s it uses for both trunk feed into Dubai and beyond to what will be then be much more than the seven European cities to which it now flies A380s.
4. The EU has to deliver on the traffic rights. It is one thing to have unlimited access to Dubai, and another to recover or initiate the necessary access to cities Qantas has down the years abandoned or never previously served.
This is not a criticism of the Qantas ambition, but it is a reality reminder that there can be issues with traffic rights between Australia and Europe and these are not negotiated between airlines but governments, and those governments in turn may or may not have rules as to who gets what part of which entitlement.
By the time, assuming the 787-9 isn’t further delayed, that 2016 comes around, Qantas will have been inactive in its own right across the entire reach of continental Europe since early 2013, and the actual market may have grown by around 20% if the global market forecasts of Airbus and Boeing are correct, and they are unnervingly accurate over the medium term.
This means that what Joyce said this morning in so far as returning to Europe is concerned, is Alice-in-Wonderland stuff, or to be kind, overly simplistic and improbable.
The notion that the future of Qantas in Europe depends on not being there for a prolonged period, and then being welcomed back, with a jet which it no longer actually has on order, and which many, including Emirates, regard as too small to be useful is definitely fairy tale stuff.
The-world-(so far as Europe goes)-is-moving-on-and-Qantas-is-a receding-memory.
Not only that, but as of 1 April, with impeccable timing, Qantas gives all of the one-stop or direct, even two stop flying to Europe from Perth, Adelaide and Brisbane to Emirates, and Emirates has already turned the page on its play book that says that as such markets grow it will as required replace 777-300ERs, the jet with which it scored a huge advantage over Qantas, with some of its 90 A380s, the jet with which it picks up tens of millions of dollars more in revenue per airliner per year when dealing with airports that are or will be incapable of taking any more movements, or giving them to Emirates, as the case may be as the market grows.
By the time Qantas thinks it will re-enter continental Europe it will have long ceased to be a real, as in a real Qantas jet service from all but two states of Australia.
It is worth studying the Emirates route structure. While Qantas will cease to fly between Europe and Asia on routes to or from Australia, Emirates will continue to do this, both as the chosen alliance airline for Qantas on routes between Australian cities and Bangkok, and Singapore, but from those cities and also Hong Kong, Seoul, Shanghai, Kuala Lumpur and Tokyo, and who knows what else, to its Dubai hub, from 2016 and beyond.
The marginalisation of the Qantas brand in this respect is comprehensive and devastating, even though the logic of the Qantas link with a Middle East hub carrier is undeniably correct, yet tragically late, and negotiated from a position of abject weakness rather than strength.
There are two slogans to reflect upon. They are Qantas, You’re the reason we fly Emirates and Emirates, we fly you because of Qantas.
But that actually depends on a number of things.
1. Qantas has to exercise its options or purchase rights for the jets around 18 months before it intends to so use them, since it doesn’t hold any firm orders for them anymore since it announced their cancellation on 23 August.
2. Emirates has to co-operate.
3. The 787-9 has to deliver on its promises, and as a smaller jet nevertheless be competitive on a cost basis against the Boeing 777-300ERs flown by Emirates, as well as the A380s it uses for both trunk feed into Dubai and beyond to what will be then be much more than the seven European cities to which it now flies A380s.
4. The EU has to deliver on the traffic rights. It is one thing to have unlimited access to Dubai, and another to recover or initiate the necessary access to cities Qantas has down the years abandoned or never previously served.
This is not a criticism of the Qantas ambition, but it is a reality reminder that there can be issues with traffic rights between Australia and Europe and these are not negotiated between airlines but governments, and those governments in turn may or may not have rules as to who gets what part of which entitlement.
By the time, assuming the 787-9 isn’t further delayed, that 2016 comes around, Qantas will have been inactive in its own right across the entire reach of continental Europe since early 2013, and the actual market may have grown by around 20% if the global market forecasts of Airbus and Boeing are correct, and they are unnervingly accurate over the medium term.
This means that what Joyce said this morning in so far as returning to Europe is concerned, is Alice-in-Wonderland stuff, or to be kind, overly simplistic and improbable.
The notion that the future of Qantas in Europe depends on not being there for a prolonged period, and then being welcomed back, with a jet which it no longer actually has on order, and which many, including Emirates, regard as too small to be useful is definitely fairy tale stuff.
The-world-(so far as Europe goes)-is-moving-on-and-Qantas-is-a receding-memory.
Not only that, but as of 1 April, with impeccable timing, Qantas gives all of the one-stop or direct, even two stop flying to Europe from Perth, Adelaide and Brisbane to Emirates, and Emirates has already turned the page on its play book that says that as such markets grow it will as required replace 777-300ERs, the jet with which it scored a huge advantage over Qantas, with some of its 90 A380s, the jet with which it picks up tens of millions of dollars more in revenue per airliner per year when dealing with airports that are or will be incapable of taking any more movements, or giving them to Emirates, as the case may be as the market grows.
By the time Qantas thinks it will re-enter continental Europe it will have long ceased to be a real, as in a real Qantas jet service from all but two states of Australia.
It is worth studying the Emirates route structure. While Qantas will cease to fly between Europe and Asia on routes to or from Australia, Emirates will continue to do this, both as the chosen alliance airline for Qantas on routes between Australian cities and Bangkok, and Singapore, but from those cities and also Hong Kong, Seoul, Shanghai, Kuala Lumpur and Tokyo, and who knows what else, to its Dubai hub, from 2016 and beyond.
The marginalisation of the Qantas brand in this respect is comprehensive and devastating, even though the logic of the Qantas link with a Middle East hub carrier is undeniably correct, yet tragically late, and negotiated from a position of abject weakness rather than strength.
There are two slogans to reflect upon. They are Qantas, You’re the reason we fly Emirates and Emirates, we fly you because of Qantas.
There is a gotcha moment there.
He said of the 450 million international loss, 150 million was from industrial action.
So I take it all the costs were apportioned to international? Domestic losses also from grounding the entire fleet, all the TWU workers etc?
Sprung...
He said of the 450 million international loss, 150 million was from industrial action.
So I take it all the costs were apportioned to international? Domestic losses also from grounding the entire fleet, all the TWU workers etc?
Sprung...
someone (with the skillz that i dont have) save that video
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Sprung
"Qantas group has a user pay system" hmm
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The Wolgan Valley Resort is 100% owned by Emirates. It is up to them to book it, or not.
Just to clarify my comments above. Much was written about the "secret" Wolgan Valley Resort rendezvous. However it was reported, rather humorously I felt, that when the Airline Grand Poobahs actually showed up at said address, nobody had thought to actually book the resort out. I could just imagine the discussion "I taught you booked id for ta turd of Sebtembr?" "No I thought you booked it" "No, I taught you booked id" "No, I thought you booked it ..."
Two words come to regarding this lot's managerial skills; piss-up and brewery!
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Maybe that was lesson number 1.We will tell you if you have a booking or not.
There should be some positive sign that the rat team were not despatched to a pub in Lithgow for the night. Suspect there was such desperation for a deal, they may even have come back the next morning regardless.
There should be some positive sign that the rat team were not despatched to a pub in Lithgow for the night. Suspect there was such desperation for a deal, they may even have come back the next morning regardless.
Squawk, afore ye go [and personally I hope you stay]. 'Booking the resort out' when read in the context of the original article means 'Offer all the other people who have booked already at that time alternative accommodation so the Big Cheeses can have the whole resort to themselves for their deliberations. Something only the owner of the resort [i.e. Emirates] can do. I guess you say something like 'So sorry, but our hot water has failed and we will have to close the resort for a few days'. There was no suggestion either side didn't have a room reservation on arrival.
Personally, there seems to me to be unfortunate symbolism in Emirates hosting the show at their only resort in Australia. If I'd been invited on the Qantas side [and of course no chance of that] I would have felt like a school boy in short pants being summoned to the Headmaster's office and I would have made damned sure the venue was different and the symbolism 'read' in a different way.
Personally, there seems to me to be unfortunate symbolism in Emirates hosting the show at their only resort in Australia. If I'd been invited on the Qantas side [and of course no chance of that] I would have felt like a school boy in short pants being summoned to the Headmaster's office and I would have made damned sure the venue was different and the symbolism 'read' in a different way.
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@Sunfish, judging by the insight from your last post, you must be another one of our well cultured Australian globetrotters. Are you the same insightful gentleman I met in Kuta last month wearing a Bintang singlet, whos travels had taken him as far north as Pattaya and as far west as Kalgoorlie?
Last edited by scandistralian; 12th Sep 2012 at 18:20.