Interesting Night At YPPH - 'EASTERLIES"....

[Icarus2001]

Please explain the value of using 24 when it crosses 21, costs more in fuel to taxi-to compared to using 21 to the west,

Come on, you know it would work. The departing aircraft taking off on 21 rolls past the intersection and the one ALREADY lined up and WAITING on 24 can blast off. Diverging tracks. The 21 departure ideally is a left turn and 24 is the right turn. Arranged that way on clearance receipt.

costs more in fuel to taxi-to compared to using 21 to the west, and half the jets departing turn right off 21 anyway?

What more fuel than waiting 8-15 minutes in line? Yeah sure.
Do the Northbound jets ALWAYS NEED to turn right? Some imagination is needed here. Not your rigid military type approach It is doable.

Most of your points have been shot down.

Let me know which ones YOU THINK have been shot down and those with a chance, in your obviously perfect knowledge of the world. Just because the people at the table convinced you it cannot work does not make YOU or THEM correct does it?

And yes I have sat in the tower in the last couple of years and plugged in at the bunker to watch an arrival sequence. It is pretty obvious as stated above that the ATCOs do their best with one arm tied behind their backs.

Listen to the people who make it work overseas, everyday, it can be different but someone has to WANT it to change. WAC/PAP don't care and AsA are dysfunctional, that leaves the operators to band together. Yeah right, what fun RAPAC meetings are.

[Sequencer]

Come on, you know it would work. The departing aircraft taking off on 21 rolls past the intersection and the one ALREADY lined up and WAITING on 24 can blast off. Diverging tracks. The 21 departure ideally is a left turn and 24 is the right turn. Arranged that way on clearance receipt.

Good luck with that, we'll get you to negotiate the environmental issues (noise) with all and sundry. Wouldn't take long to have every MP, Councilor etc up for re-election to make it their mission to have restrictions and a curfew for PH.

Getting back to the actual suggestion, how does the 24 departure get to the threshold? Cross 21, another chance for pilots to take their sweet time, doodling along. It would just create more apron conflictions around D or if they come out B or W you would lose slots while they cross, you really have no idea.

[Sequencer]

Sit with a scanner next to RWY 27R in LHR! Priceless.

Probably got the propeller on his head too!!

[yowieII]

So if 21 is in use, how do you think you can get them lining up at 24??
Seriously, get rid of the ridiculous taxi slot time, halve(or better) the ATC workload by all the negotiating of taxi slot time, we early, we late, jamming Delivery with slot time requests because you have to get the time as soon as you get in the A/C, which, for us at least, is way out of our SOP for obtaining an airways(doubling up the calls...).
Does Perth need slot times?? NO

[Capn Bloggs]

Does Perth need slot times?? NO

The fuel's obviously not coming out of your pocket! You might like sitting in a queue for 30 minutes after startup; I don't.

[Icarus2001]

how does the 24 departure get to the threshold? Cross 21, another chance for pilots to take their sweet time, doodling along

So if 21 is in use, how do you think you can get them lining up at 24??

All I see are people looking for ways it cannot change and that is why it cannot change. I bet you hate daylight saving and Sunday trading too.

Does every aircraft need 3444 metres to take off on 21? No of course not. So a roll forward procedure with an increased line up allowance for RTOW charts could work with aircraft off W or B passing behind any lined up traffic waiting on 21 for the preceding airborne aircraft to clear. Some operators already use RTOW figures for a D departure when using full length on 21 thereby negating a slower line up and standing start requirement. So as not to upset the tower by " taking their sweet time, doodling along"

Yet another way... since D departures are apready waiting why can't they cross over 21 there and up C and W to 24?

Anyway I'll stop now as you already have made up your minds it cannot be done and anyone who says differently doesn't know what they are talking about. Truly disappointing.

[yowieII]

So can you tell us how the taxi slots are working so that we save fuel??
My point was that the lack of taxi options are the problem, ever had to get an aircraft towed when 03/06 is in operation? I know that there is work in progress and it does seem to be getting better..
And BTW, I can't believe that we don't have daylight savings and Sunday trading, I also can't understand why major road and RUNWAY works need to start at the beginning of a peak period, but that's just the WA way I guess...

And..
Throw a heavy into the mix, why sit at an intersection for a whole extra minute if you don't have to...

[le Pingouin]

Icarus, a lot of the problem is integration. ATC is still at the stage where everything is handled to the lowest common denominator, because that will succeed.

Can you guarantee you'll take be able to take track shortening prior to top of descent, even when conditions are marginal? Can you guarantee prior to pushback that you'll be at the holding point X minutes later?

Even if you could we don't have the system integration to take advantage of it. The problem is we have to formulate a plan many minutes ahead of knowing exactly what will happen. If we don't leave a bit of wriggle room it goes to **** real quick. That flexibility has an overhead.

Creativity comes at the cost of workload - sure I can achieve the triple somersault with pike & other fancy bits but what about the poor bugger on the receiving end who is going under? It's a whole system you need to consider, not just a departure or two. You can't build a system around always achieving the optimal solution.

[yowieII]

And Bloggs, when was the last time that you have flown out of anywhere other than Perth, sim currency doesn't count

[Capn Bloggs]

Originally Posted by Yowie

So can you tell us how the taxi slots are working so that we save fuel??

You're joking, aren't you? Instead of wasting your breath here, run along to Europe and tell them they are wasting their time using a slot system.

If you want daylight saving, bugger off somewhere else. We already get 40 minutes more sun than Sydney. It's hot enough at 1600 as it is; you want to make it hotter?? Besides, a good (and increasing) majority of sandgropers don't want it.

Originally Posted by Icarus

All I see are people looking for ways it cannot change and that is why it cannot change.

Wrong. What you are getting are counter points of view that debunk your ideas. That's all. Anybody is quite entitled to their opinion; others are quite entitled to a possibly counter-opinion. Perhaps it is you who is so blinkered you can't see reason; you can't accept why this stuff has been done to death many times over.

[nitpicker330]

Direct no speed and Sequencer:-- Is that the best you can come up with fellas? really?

Its not just the wanna bees that have scanners and sit beside the runway watching. I've been employed by 3 different Airlines up the pointy end for nearly 30 years and take a keen interest in all things Aviation. If that means sitting beside the runway in LHR with a scanner on my LHR layovers then so be it. Over 30 years I've made a point of visiting MEL, SYD, OOL, BNE, ROK, PER, HKG, LAX, SEA Towers and Area/App centres many times and have a few friends that are ATCO's. Not to mention attending the last ATC/Airline Pilot evening at MEL ATC centre 2 years ago. Didn't see you there? How many times have you travelled in a jump seat to see it from our perspective?

So keep your smart comments to yourself please, as a frequent end user I'm very well qualified to comment on ATC and the job they do.

Maybe ask some of those x EGLL ATCO's how they did it in LHR and LEARN from their experience instead of belittling people here.

[Sequencer]

So a roll forward procedure

Not a bad idea but I think it would became very complex, R/T intense and almost certainly less safe. Some aircraft at B/W crossing for 24, some not, crossing at D in front of aircraft lining up, some not. But you will still have to do the environmental assessment for us and answer all the noise complaints

Welcome any ideas but throwing a few off the cuff ideas on this forum is far easier than actually implementing them, especially when they are rubbish or been tried before.

So can you tell us how the taxi slots are working so that we save fuel??

With slots you will be only #6 or so in the queue, without you could be #16, it happened regularly.

Come early March new slot system being introduced, you'll know the night before your slot. Miss it and it's down the back of the queue.

RUNWAY works need to start at the beginning of a peak period

They don't, 0000 when hopefully most of it is over.

why sit at an intersection for a whole extra minute

Ask CASA, something to do with a SW4 behind an A380 in SY.

Not your rigid military type approach

Nothing military about the people doing most of this, you may have something to really moan about if there was. It's the military that wouldn't consider a jet and a non-jet route through their airspace, hence everyone on the GURAK.

Re design the airspace
Re design SIDS and STARS
More Rapid exits on the RWY
Education program to operators regarding ROT and Speed control on app
Strict speed control on app to fit more in.

This is all being done, except high speed exits, as part of ACE but it won't happen overnight. Redesign SIDs and STARs with no RAAF and no noise issues a piece of cake however that is not the world we live in.

[Sequencer]

Its not just the wanna bees that have scanners and sit beside the runway watching

Wanna bees and tragics...

How many times have you travelled in a jump seat

In my 30 years plus I have lost count and amazingly I have pilots as friends

I'm very well qualified to comment on ATC and the job they do.

Ditto but insert pilots.

Now enough of the p!$$!ng contest

[nitpicker330]

Not a pissing contest bud, I don't like the belittling tone of your holier than thou post.....

Would you rather have Airline crews that took an interest in all things Aviation or ones that went home and didn't give a toss?? I know which ones I'd prefer.
Plenty of ATCO's that Plane spot beside the Runway as well, a few post their pictures online.

[nitpicker330]

Yes I can see how Perth Airspace with Janadakot and Pearce makes it impossible to flow smoothly...

How LHR manage to do it with really busy Gatwick, Stansted and Luton in such close proximity AND lots of noise sensitive areas is an absolute wonder to behold!!

Either that or they just hope like hell..........

Let's face it, it's not the Airspace that can't be fixed it's the outdated proceedures you guys are forced to use?

[Capt Claret]

I don't understand why the assumption is that the problem is all ATC's. I regularly fly with guys who accept "max speed to the field, cancel STAR speed restrictions" and are back at 210 or sometimes even 190 kias, with 20 nm to run, when the only regulatory speed limit is 240 kias at the IAF. 240 kias could easily be held to 12ish miles without contravening any SOP, or stabilised criteria.

I often wonder at ATC's ability to cope with such wide ranging performance criteria. It's a bit like driving on the open road, speed limit 110 kph, and having a long line of cars stuck behind the dawdler doing 80.

[nitpicker330]

Well I'm not an Airspace expert, only a humble end user but I've already suggested a few very basic things earlier.
VHHH CAD and the CAAC are currently re-designing the whole Pearl River Delta airspace to improve the flow and amount if traffic between VHHH VMMC ZGSZ and ZGGG. They have real problems with layout and different countries proceedures all in a 50 mile congested plot of land, but are trying to work them out to mke it smoother ( one eg is Aircraft arriving into VHHH fom the mainland are currently faced with 100 extra track miles )

Surely Perth ( as one Aussie eg ) with only 1 major and 2 very minor Airports could better design their airspace layout with regards to SIDS STARS to better flow the traffic????

Anyway, I guess the ATCO's in here dismiss my thoughts as amateur but I'm still entitled to express my thoughts because it seems to me and many other Airline crews that those places seem to move it along much better.

I guess like most other things in this world it comes down to dollars.......

[Capn Bloggs]

I regularly fly with guys who accept "max speed to the field, cancel STAR speed restrictions" and are back at 210 or sometimes even 190 kias, with 20 nm to run, when the only regulatory speed limit is 240 kias at the IAF.

That, Claret, is because of training, experience and supervision. In the context of the current rather off-topic discussion here, this issue will increasingly drive the performance of aircraft in the system. Pilots and SOPs will become even more "conservative" as time goes on and this will further hobble the system, reducing it's flexibility and overall performance. Further, as le Pingouin mentioned, ATC are likely to add buffers to allow for the variations in pilot technique.

Yes I can see how Perth Airspace with Janadakot and Pearce makes it impossible to flow smoothly...

How LHR manage to do it with really busy Gatwick, Stansted and Luton in such close proximity AND lots of noise sensitive areas is an absolute wonder to behold!!

Either that or they just hope like hell..........

I don't like the belittling tone of your holier than thou post.....

Pot...kettle...black.

[Slasher]

Claret its an ATC problem where an aircraft approaching final
is instructed to maintain say 180kts till say five miles but will
be back to bug+adds well before then due to the silly archaic
"punishment" cultures of some Asian mobs. Don't forget that
bloody QAR is simply a Company stool pigeon for outfits like
these.

This happens a lot in places like SIN, and one will learn what
carriers are going to slow down very early, despite any ATC
instruction and one needs to adjusts one's speed (if following
behind) accordingly to avoid a pileup or GA.

[nitpicker330]

Yes I agree there are some Asian carriers that slow down way too early or don't follow speed control requirements but they seem to get into LHR ok without problem and they have the tightest most enforced speed control requirements in the world.