No deal for Qantas and pilots
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Alabama, then Wyoming, then Idaho and now staying with Kharon on Styx houseboat
Age: 61
Posts: 1,437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Always a hoot to see the Minister for Incompetence trotted out whenever the 'big aviation issues' unfold.
What is it with these nupties, he mumbles, stumbles, stammers and slurs and the Carbon Queen drawls, you would think Australian politicians have been born with an extra chromosone?
What is it with these nupties, he mumbles, stumbles, stammers and slurs and the Carbon Queen drawls, you would think Australian politicians have been born with an extra chromosone?
If you had followed the story closely, you would have already learned that FWA (probably the President) had already stated that in each case, the judge doing the mediation would not sit on the FWA Full Bench WRT the same union/Qantas case.
Are you seriously suggesting that having a ex partner of a law firm who is known for anti union activity and who is then advising one of the participants in your case is NOT a conflict of interest??
Like seriously.......
Last edited by neville_nobody; 21st Nov 2011 at 07:00.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: canberra
Age: 77
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nobody,
I sometimes think that the English I use is different from the English you pilots use. My reading of Keg's posts was along the lines that somehow the Judge who was doing the mediation would be somehow biased because of some a previous association with Freehills and therefore AIPA had to consider its options and take action to have him disqualified (a theme supported by Tima9x and Chow) from the Full Bench.
I was pointing out that FWA had already addressed that issue of its own volition WRT to the 3 unions involved.
Conspiracy theory over.
I sometimes think that the English I use is different from the English you pilots use. My reading of Keg's posts was along the lines that somehow the Judge who was doing the mediation would be somehow biased because of some a previous association with Freehills and therefore AIPA had to consider its options and take action to have him disqualified (a theme supported by Tima9x and Chow) from the Full Bench.
I was pointing out that FWA had already addressed that issue of its own volition WRT to the 3 unions involved.
Conspiracy theory over.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: I'veBeenEverywhereMan
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
5 Posts
Well I think it is game, set match qantas management. I am sure you will get a slight pay rise (3-4%) probably, maybe even more. But as long as the company does not have to sign any work clauses they have won the battle. Thats what they have wanted all along and I am sure they are betting no FWA will invoke such a clause.
Nunc est bibendum
Perhaps we do write differently. We certainly interpret it differently
My point is that AIPA could have applied to have the justice removed from the conciliation process due to previous history but the strategic decision was made to NOT apply for that knowing that he then wouldn't be on the full bench.
No conspiracy theory suggested. Perhaps that's YOUR confirmation bias coming into play.
My point is that AIPA could have applied to have the justice removed from the conciliation process due to previous history but the strategic decision was made to NOT apply for that knowing that he then wouldn't be on the full bench.
No conspiracy theory suggested. Perhaps that's YOUR confirmation bias coming into play.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess we may see a pay rise by mid 2012- been a LONG time between pay rises!
As for this ongoing saga, management have played their hand perfectly, being several steps ahead of the various unions. Not saying they were fair or reasonable at any stage, far from it. The government's ill-conceived fair work laws have obviously been analysed to the nth degree, and whilst the unions' hands are tied behind their backs, an underestimated team are achieving their aim and will walk away scott-free and with a healthy little take home package.
And if you think it's been nasty so far, just wait till the redundancies (out of seniority) start! But that's another thread altogether.
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you had followed the story closely, you would have already learned that FWA (probably the President) had already stated that in each case, the judge doing the mediation would not sit on the FWA Full Bench WRT the same union/Qantas case.
Are you seriously suggesting that having a ex partner of a law firm who is known for anti union activity and who is then advising one of the participants in your case is NOT a conflict of interest??
Like seriously.......
Does VP Watson have a history of "anti-union" decisions does he?
All members of FWA didn't crawl out from under rocks. They all have "track records" on one side of the divide or other. There are links stretching far and wide. But that is the past
Nunc est bibendum
I'm saying that in deals like this you want everything working in your favour. See the jetconnect case for a recent example where the justices disagreed on an issue despite all seeing the same evidence.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: canberra
Age: 77
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm saying that in deals like this you want everything working in your favour. See the jetconnect case for a recent example where the justices disagreed on an issue despite all seeing the same evidence.
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess the positive of this process is that when the arbitration kicks off and decisions have to be made it is by a Full Bench ala the JetConnect decision.
SDP Drake's dissenting position on that case may not have surprised some in the IR world given what some think is her pro-employee view of matters, in particular on unfair dismissal. Conversely the Peter Hampton position may not have surprised some given his Chamber of Commerce background.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Bangkok & Vegas
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From SMH......
Why Alan Joyce should be named Australian of the Year
How on Earth this £*¥€*£ %~}£ can ever get staff to ever trust him or be willing to go above and beyond ever again is beyond me.
Add to this this ¥€£ !*=+ comments and it is safe to say the world is stuffed.
Why Alan Joyce should be named Australian of the Year
How on Earth this £*¥€*£ %~}£ can ever get staff to ever trust him or be willing to go above and beyond ever again is beyond me.
Add to this this ¥€£ !*=+ comments and it is safe to say the world is stuffed.
Few people on here seem pretty up to speed with Judges and legalese for a professional pilot forum......
Maybe that explains why they can't comprehend Keg's plain English post from before.
No I am not.
However if you look at the rules of judicial disqualification there maybe a case for him to be removed depending on the circumstances and of the case at hand. Without knowing the finer details it would be hard to say more. In saying that he was a partner at Freehills for 19 years and QANTAS have used them as their legal advice over the years. Disqualification would depend on what cases and in what capacity as to whether or not it would apply.
All that aside, it is now irrelevant as it will be heard in court in front of a few of them so it could get interesting.
Not over until the fat lady sings though. The FWA could get ugly and many things come out in the public that the company may not have wanted which may have severe political ramifications.
It will be a field day for the newspapers and there will be headlines galore with
some interesting legal and political debate to follow.
And I am sure the wining will never end if QF cop a job protection clause.
On saying all that if they want to go to Asia they can have it. I have absolutely no idea how they will ever get pilots cheaper than in Australia. You go to Asia the insurance goes up, the training costs go the to moon, there are cultural issues, finding pilots alone is going to be an issue. Most of the national carriers have to pay for the entire cost of training their pilots so how the hell QF think they are going to run an airline out there is beyond me.
Maybe that explains why they can't comprehend Keg's plain English post from before.
Are you alleging that Vice President Watson is biased and his position in assisting in the bargaining dispute is compromised because of his past employment? He's no longer on any sort of retainer from Freehills.
Does VP Watson have a history of "anti-union" decisions does he?
Does VP Watson have a history of "anti-union" decisions does he?
However if you look at the rules of judicial disqualification there maybe a case for him to be removed depending on the circumstances and of the case at hand. Without knowing the finer details it would be hard to say more. In saying that he was a partner at Freehills for 19 years and QANTAS have used them as their legal advice over the years. Disqualification would depend on what cases and in what capacity as to whether or not it would apply.
All that aside, it is now irrelevant as it will be heard in court in front of a few of them so it could get interesting.
and whilst the unions' hands are tied behind their backs, an underestimated team are achieving their aim and will walk away scott-free and with a healthy little take home package.
It will be a field day for the newspapers and there will be headlines galore with
some interesting legal and political debate to follow.
And I am sure the wining will never end if QF cop a job protection clause.
On saying all that if they want to go to Asia they can have it. I have absolutely no idea how they will ever get pilots cheaper than in Australia. You go to Asia the insurance goes up, the training costs go the to moon, there are cultural issues, finding pilots alone is going to be an issue. Most of the national carriers have to pay for the entire cost of training their pilots so how the hell QF think they are going to run an airline out there is beyond me.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Alabama, then Wyoming, then Idaho and now staying with Kharon on Styx houseboat
Age: 61
Posts: 1,437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wonderful photo with that article, the wee man standing proud (not standing tall). Beautiful view of his chins, and that black attire, has he just attended a funeral (death of Qantas?). And that look - Could that be something out of Zoolander?
Nunc est bibendum
....how the hell QF think they are going to run an airline out there is beyond me.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: lapbandland
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Or
Maybe the arbitrators will rule that recruiting outsiders to
man an offshoot company as they make incumbents redundant
is both unfair and unreasonable. Its called FWA
In any case, it will put Julia and her legislation to the torch.
If there's a god both Julia and the garden knome will disappear.
Maybe the arbitrators will rule that recruiting outsiders to
man an offshoot company as they make incumbents redundant
is both unfair and unreasonable. Its called FWA
In any case, it will put Julia and her legislation to the torch.
If there's a god both Julia and the garden knome will disappear.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Behind You
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Take a look out there Keg, the gigs offered by Parc, Rishworth etc, or even directly with other well known international operators, offer a hell of a lot less than the boys (and Girls) have now.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Ceduna
Age: 71
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You are all naive, Qantas has won, they will out lawyer you all, use forensic accountants and the big 5 accounting houses to bombard the arbitration with their story, it will be up to Unions to refute, you better have deep pockets as this is going to be a long and very bloody fight.
Discovery in legal proceedings is a 2 way street, out come all the secrets and embarrasing Emails.
There are lots of precedents for this, QF are not alone, they are following a well worn path and expect to succeed
Discovery in legal proceedings is a 2 way street, out come all the secrets and embarrasing Emails.
There are lots of precedents for this, QF are not alone, they are following a well worn path and expect to succeed
Deep pockets means QF hangs on till Tony Abbott and his ilk takes over from the red head. Then, that's all folks.
Nunc est bibendum
Take a look out there Keg, the gigs offered by Parc, Rishworth etc, or even directly with other well known international operators, offer a hell of a lot less than the boys (and Girls) have now.
The whole point of this is not what QF is offering now, it's what it's offering those it is about to make redundant- perhaps out of seniority as a result of what they 'win' at FWA- in a couple of years time.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: rangaville
Posts: 2,280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are you alleging that Vice President Watson is biased and his position in assisting in the bargaining dispute is compromised because of his past employment?
Post of the year mate
post of the year 