A question to QF pilots
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AS, your post summarises some of the worst aspects of industrial relations in this country, yet you criticise pilots for taking a stand against the deterioration of working conditions. The fact that the education costs and despicable work practices you have experienced are widespread does not make them fair, or right. The pilot body, and other unions, should be commended for taking a stand in their employment negotiations. If you had some b@lls, maybe you'd stand up for yourself too and you wouldn't be the bitter, envious individual that you appear to be.
And by the way, most Australian pilots pay significantly more than $60k for their training, and for the majority, a $36k/year pay cheque upon completion of training is like hitting the jackpot. Your woe is me attitude is not very endearing.
And by the way, most Australian pilots pay significantly more than $60k for their training, and for the majority, a $36k/year pay cheque upon completion of training is like hitting the jackpot. Your woe is me attitude is not very endearing.
AIrbornesoon:
The simple answer is risk and return. There is only one employer of B747 and A380 pilots in Australia as far as I know, and if you don't work for them you don't work at all. When you consider that there is at least a Ten year apprenticeship to get to the controls, you are making a very serious investment of your working life, perhaps a quarter of it, in support of your goal.
If you are a simple plumber or electrician, you can choose from thousands of jobs with multiple employers, not so the highly specialised employee.
From a management perspective Qantas is being stupid. They invest considerable sums in the recruitment, selection, training and maintenance of very skilled pilots - then they turn a round, tell them there is no job security; thereby inviting them to consider taking their skills to an employer offering better career prospects.
This, as well as their calculated offensiveness towards their engineering workforce, is going to bite Qantas very, very hard in future. Loyalty is a Two way street as any manager who has seen a prized employee walk out the door will tell you.
From your point of view soontobeairborne, I would stick with flying C172's. There are always plenty of low skilled jobs.
What makes QFs pilots uniquely entitled to job security in an economy where no other worker has that? Now before you go on about saving lives and your $100k investment in self education let me enlighten you about working conditions or non-aviation Australia.
If you are a simple plumber or electrician, you can choose from thousands of jobs with multiple employers, not so the highly specialised employee.
From a management perspective Qantas is being stupid. They invest considerable sums in the recruitment, selection, training and maintenance of very skilled pilots - then they turn a round, tell them there is no job security; thereby inviting them to consider taking their skills to an employer offering better career prospects.
This, as well as their calculated offensiveness towards their engineering workforce, is going to bite Qantas very, very hard in future. Loyalty is a Two way street as any manager who has seen a prized employee walk out the door will tell you.
From your point of view soontobeairborne, I would stick with flying C172's. There are always plenty of low skilled jobs.
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Ask specific questions and I am sure you will get specific answers
The original poster asked a very specific question. That question was:
What makes QFs pilots uniquely entitled to job security in an economy where no other worker has that?
Several QF pilots pretended to answer it, but did not.
It was answered, correctly, twelve posts later, by a non QF pilot (the poster Ixixly). His answer was "nothing".
muffman (another non QF pilot) gave the next closest thing to an answer via his quaint assertion that the unions were merely "asking" for job security! The reality is that they are going way beyond merely asking.
How about these "answers" from actual QF pilots:
From Tuner 2:
Your entire post demonstrates you do not actually understand ...
From DutchRoll:
You don't really understand the particular pilot claim, do you?
A few other QF pilots said that the "job security" was really about QF flights being flown by QF pilots, but this is not what the "job security" stuff is actually about, and they know it. They push this line because it has some (limited) appeal to the Australian public.
What the "job security" claims are really about:
Getting Qantas to pay all pilots the same rates as the mainline pilots. If Qantas were bound to this condition, then there would be no need to utilise cheaper "off shore" pilots to fly their aircraft. Hence, the derived "job security".
Can Qantas afford to do this? Of course not. As a business, Qantas is a basketcase. They made a profit of $500 million recently, and the unions think this is a lot of money, but in reality the profit margin was razor thin (about 1.6%).
A number of posters seem to think they are better off because they are in a union. To those posters I urge you to realise that your union will, more often than not, put you out of a job.
Unions have their place (given the right circumstances), but give them enough time and they will destroy the jobs of their members. We may be about to be reminded of that in this case.
I too have a question for you. Please actually answer it.
Do you seriously believe your job security will be enhanced if your demands are met?
What the "job security" claims are really about:
Getting Qantas to pay all pilots the same rates as the mainline pilots. If Qantas were bound to this condition, then there would be no need to utilise cheaper "off shore" pilots to fly their aircraft. Hence, the derived "job security".
Getting Qantas to pay all pilots the same rates as the mainline pilots. If Qantas were bound to this condition, then there would be no need to utilise cheaper "off shore" pilots to fly their aircraft. Hence, the derived "job security".
Once more for the dummies - we are not asking QANTAS to guarantee our jobs. We just want a QANTAS Flight/QANTAS Pilot clause in our agreement and we have offered serious offsets and/or efficiencies to achieve that. All have which, to date, been refused.
“QANTAS Flight/QANTAS Pilot”
I am interested to know what the opposite would look like. Has there been a suggestion that Qantas is considering crewing QAL aircraft with contract pilots?
In the discussions thus far, has there been an indication at all that QAL aircraft will be crewed by anything other than a Qantas pilot?
How has this been worded? Where did the information come from? Who will the pilots be?
I am interested to know what the opposite would look like. Has there been a suggestion that Qantas is considering crewing QAL aircraft with contract pilots?
In the discussions thus far, has there been an indication at all that QAL aircraft will be crewed by anything other than a Qantas pilot?
How has this been worded? Where did the information come from? Who will the pilots be?
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Qantas has never had a passenger killed in the jet age - try to find another airline that can say that.
Quality of Pilots, maintenance etc , etc is the reason. This is being eroded.
Next ??
Quality of Pilots, maintenance etc , etc is the reason. This is being eroded.
Next ??
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Air Lanka
Aerlingus
Hawaiian
Virgin America/Blue/Atlantic
Jetblue
Jetstar
America West
These come to mind without much trouble. Want more, I could do some research if you like? There are plenty.
You would be very foolish to think you provide something to QF that others cannot provide.
Aerlingus
Hawaiian
Virgin America/Blue/Atlantic
Jetblue
Jetstar
America West
These come to mind without much trouble. Want more, I could do some research if you like? There are plenty.
You would be very foolish to think you provide something to QF that others cannot provide.
Captain Gidday
Are you saying that it is OK if Jetstar continue to expand as long as the public are clear that they are buying a ticket on a Jetstar Aircraft? What is your opinion on codeshare? Should Qantas be a part of the Oneword Alliance? Last time I checked, when you buy a ticket through the Qantas website, it says operated by Jetconnect, Jetstar or Air France et al.
Does your “Qantas Flight, Qantas Pilot” allow Qantas to sell tickets on other codeshare partner airlines or are you saying that they can only sell tickets on Qantas mainline flights only?
Let's say Qantas sold seafood. Qantas says 'buy our seafood because it is caught by good Australian fisherman in Australian trawlers, complying with all Australian regulations'. So, you believe that and go and buy your fish from Qantas.
Then the Trawlermen try to tell you, 'Hey, wait a minute, some of those fish you are buying are from fish farms and some of them soon enough will be coming from rice paddies in Vietnam'.
The fishermen say, if it's got Qantas Australian Wild Caught Fish on the label, then you should be 100% assured [just like under the fair trading laws] that your fish is caught by genuine Australian fishermen, in Australian waters. ..........
Look, the Aussie Trawler Fisherman don't really care if Qantas chooses to bring out a canned product using farmed fish or imported fish, just so long as it is properly labelled. But people buying product A are currently getting product B or C, in the opinion of the Trawlermen.
Then the Trawlermen try to tell you, 'Hey, wait a minute, some of those fish you are buying are from fish farms and some of them soon enough will be coming from rice paddies in Vietnam'.
The fishermen say, if it's got Qantas Australian Wild Caught Fish on the label, then you should be 100% assured [just like under the fair trading laws] that your fish is caught by genuine Australian fishermen, in Australian waters. ..........
Look, the Aussie Trawler Fisherman don't really care if Qantas chooses to bring out a canned product using farmed fish or imported fish, just so long as it is properly labelled. But people buying product A are currently getting product B or C, in the opinion of the Trawlermen.
Are you saying that it is OK if Jetstar continue to expand as long as the public are clear that they are buying a ticket on a Jetstar Aircraft? What is your opinion on codeshare? Should Qantas be a part of the Oneword Alliance? Last time I checked, when you buy a ticket through the Qantas website, it says operated by Jetconnect, Jetstar or Air France et al.
Does your “Qantas Flight, Qantas Pilot” allow Qantas to sell tickets on other codeshare partner airlines or are you saying that they can only sell tickets on Qantas mainline flights only?
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These questions are directed at someone familiar with the detail of AIPA's claim. I am trying to better understand their claim and decode the true meaning of Qantas's rebuttal.
- What effect will the job security clause have on current Jetconnect operations?
- What effect will the job security clause have on current Jetstar operations?
- What effect will the job security clause have on current QantasLink (all operators) operations?
- What effect will the job security clause have on current EFA operations?
- What effect will the job security clause have on current Jetconnect operations?
- What effect will the job security clause have on current Jetstar operations?
- What effect will the job security clause have on current QantasLink (all operators) operations?
- What effect will the job security clause have on current EFA operations?
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Jetconnect, because they fly QF branded aircraft dressed as Qantas pilots, would be paid as per the applicable QF EBA. Whether or not this means QF would no longer employ them, no one really knows.
Jetstar pilots don't fly Qantas branded aircraft, so unless they start flying flights with the primary call sign as Qantas xxx, then there would be no effect. If they do then see above.
Jetstar pilots don't fly Qantas branded aircraft, so unless they start flying flights with the primary call sign as Qantas xxx, then there would be no effect. If they do then see above.
Airbornesoon
AFAIK:
QFpilots (and engineers for that matter) are only entitled to job security where the appropriate clauses are included in their binding EBA's.
Thankfully, QF pilots, engineers and any other employee covered by an EBA in this country are entitled and have the right to discuss and negotiate to have job security clauses included in an EBA.
I feel sorry for you that employees in your chosen field are apparently unable to industrially organise in the pursuit of improved conditions of employment. Things sound pretty ordinary for you.
QF pilots and engineers have been able to effectively organise via their associations and by endorsement of the majority of their members to negotiate and utilise all legal tools to achieve a satisfactory outcome to their EBA negotiations. That's it.
What makes QFs pilots uniquely entitled to job security in an economy where no other worker has that?
QFpilots (and engineers for that matter) are only entitled to job security where the appropriate clauses are included in their binding EBA's.
Thankfully, QF pilots, engineers and any other employee covered by an EBA in this country are entitled and have the right to discuss and negotiate to have job security clauses included in an EBA.
I feel sorry for you that employees in your chosen field are apparently unable to industrially organise in the pursuit of improved conditions of employment. Things sound pretty ordinary for you.
QF pilots and engineers have been able to effectively organise via their associations and by endorsement of the majority of their members to negotiate and utilise all legal tools to achieve a satisfactory outcome to their EBA negotiations. That's it.
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I feel sorry for you that employees in your chosen field are apparently unable to industrially organise in the pursuit of improved conditions of employment. Things sound pretty ordinary for you.
So there's no jobs for life, you make your self be employable and its not an issue.
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Jetstar pilots don't fly Qantas branded aircraft, so unless they start flying flights with the primary call sign as Qantas xxx, then there would be no effect.
You need your AIPA insider to give explain to you the definition of a Qantas flight. I've had it explained to me. Better still get a copy and read it yourself.
rh200:
erm, sorry rh200, I was actually responding to AirborneSoon's initial post. His/Her statements about His/Her experience "As An Australian Worker" do indeed sound pretty ordinary to me and, in my view, in need of improvement.
In response to your post, I can only agree wholeheartedly with you. If things are hunky dory in your field (as opposed to AirborneSoon's field) without the input of unions, I can only say good on yer! You're saving yourself annual union dues to boot! You're on a good thing.
Simple fact is, if employees are happy and looked after, unions wont penetrate.
Why would we want to "industrially organise", in our field, things where so much better when we got rid of the unions.
In response to your post, I can only agree wholeheartedly with you. If things are hunky dory in your field (as opposed to AirborneSoon's field) without the input of unions, I can only say good on yer! You're saving yourself annual union dues to boot! You're on a good thing.
Simple fact is, if employees are happy and looked after, unions wont penetrate.
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I spend 2/3 of my life away for home. Once upon a time I had 1-2 seats on every flight that I could use so that I could have my spouse or one of my kids with me at Christmas.
I spend about 9-10 months away per year up to six month at a time. My spouse and son can't come an visit me over chistmas because no one wants their family in a conflict area. My wife gets to worry every time she sees the news.
I just watched a mate buried the other day because an "ally" shot him on parade. One of three good mates I have lost in Afghanistan.
When you go away you are safe in the knowledge that if you crash you are met by emergency services, people who want to help you. We have to extract ourselves from the wreckage and evade until rescue. If you don't get killed in the initial firefight then you can look forward to getting your head sawn off on aljazeera. All this for just under six figures.
When not overseas we can look forward to some annual leave...Bearing in mind that Christmas is disaster season - floods, cyclones and bushfires all get our leave cancelled quick smart - and takes us away from our families.
So forgive me if I don't lobby my local member or fly the "poor Qantas pilots" flag. You are like every other Australian worker. If someone can do your job cheaper then you get the chop - isn't the free market a bitch.
You don't have to and no one really cares mate