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Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011

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Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011

Old 23rd May 2013, 22:33
  #1841 (permalink)  
 
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"The CASA has not yet had the coup de grace, but if the good Senators get their enquiry into the regulatory reform program they foreshadowed, then CASA;s goose will be well and truly cooked."

Oh Sunny I hope and pray!! without regulatory reform there is no hope for any sort of industry in Australia, I believe even our domestic airlines will buckle under the regulatory burden, the cost base here is three times the USA, goodbye the cheap airfares, but the extra costs wont result in better service, they will be swallowed up in extra regulation.
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Old 24th May 2013, 00:56
  #1842 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe the best way to deal with the boys club is to put a woman in charge?
Margaret Staib seems to be quietly getting on with it at ASA.
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Old 24th May 2013, 01:35
  #1843 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe the best way to deal with the boys club is to put a woman in charge?
Hear! Hear!

Bring back “Maxim Mary” Schiavo. Anyone but another f8#king airline pilot.

DA said:
I think the ATSB is probably more worried at the moment that the data on the recorders IS recoverable.
Precisely.

And precisely why the ATSB should not be allowed to go anywhere near the recorders. The NTSB should be requested to:
- recover the recorders and extract whatever is on them, and
- publish the raw data/recordings, and
- do an analysis of and report on what the conversations and actions in the cockpit suggest about the crew’s understanding of the information it received, and in particular whether there were any misunderstandings and, if so, why.
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Old 24th May 2013, 01:52
  #1844 (permalink)  
 
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I'm sure the recorders will be just fine. The AF447 recorders were OK after a crash which caused the aircraft to disintegrate and killed all on board, and after several years at a depth of 4000 m. So these recorders will be just fine after a ditching that all survived, and after a couple of years at 40m. I don't think the ATSB need lay awake at night worried the data on the recorders will be unrecoverable.
Sorry. I suspect my comment was a little too tongue in cheek to be seen as sarcasm.
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Old 24th May 2013, 02:02
  #1845 (permalink)  
 
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ATSB stand by their report

Safety regulators lashed over air crash failings
The Australian - 10 hours ago"We stand by our report into the Pel-Air accident and the thorough investigation we undertook to produce the report," the ATSB said in a statement. "As always ... we will give appropriate consideration to the Senate committee's report, tabled today."
Interesting
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Old 24th May 2013, 04:29
  #1846 (permalink)  
 
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Appoint a liquidator.

A great report, but where to now. Industry has been complaining about this kind of treatment for nearly 2 decades. The Whyalla report was never corrected and here also CAsA withheld evidence. The AvGas contamination, it took CAsA several years to respond to recommendations and that in the negative. an investigation would have shown incompetence or more likely a cover-up by CAsA.

Reprisal actions, too many to list here are a regular occurrence. As has been shown, when CAsA has no qualms about putting pressure on the ATSB, what hope has there been for the G.A.industry.

Strangely the airlines don’t appear to have this problem with CAsA, why could that be when incidents are regularly identified and reported ???
Withholding information is CAsA’s forte. When CAsA is challenged in the AAT or Federal Court you can be assured that most relevant information (critical of CAsA) is withheld.

Only those brave (some would say foolhardy)enough may succeed under F.O.I. to gain some limited information. Bringing the matter of withholding information to the relevant authorities is generally a waste of time. It will again be interesting to see if the Committee has better luck ? In the case of the AAT the Act requires ALL relevant information be supplied for the Tribunal to make a decision. How is a “Victim of CAsA”, or for that matter a member of the Tribunal, supposed to know documents are missing. It naturally relies on the (CAsA)lawyers as officers of the Court to be scrupulously (having moral integrity) honest!

What a joke! to think that many genuine people in CAsA are prepared to live with this ($$$)establishes the fact that its APATHY which makes this such a great nation. - Senate report will shape safety investigation future | Pro Aviation

Strict Liability Offence: 1,000,000 penalty points + 10 years Jail.

"Empty skies are Safe skies" nearly there.

Last edited by Stan van de Wiel; 24th May 2013 at 04:35. Reason: Strict Liability
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Old 24th May 2013, 04:42
  #1847 (permalink)  
 
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Air safety agencies have 'full backing' despite report on Norfolk Island crash

THE federal government has declared it has full confidence in Australia's aviation safety agencies, despite a damning report on their handling of a 2009 air ambulance ditching near Norfolk Island.

From The Australian today.

Unfortunately, Look Left is right on the money. That oxygen thief Albanese really doesn't give a sh!t about the aviation industry in this country and by the time the election is over, this report will be long forgotten and gathering dust on the shelf.
WTF has got to happen before there is any action?



Last edited by mightyauster; 24th May 2013 at 04:42.
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Old 24th May 2013, 05:03
  #1848 (permalink)  
 
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"We stand by our report into the Pel-Air accident and the thorough investigation we undertook to produce the report,"


THE federal government has declared it has full confidence in Australia's aviation safety agencies, despite a damning report on their handling of a 2009 air ambulance ditching near Norfolk Island.


Perhaps if the idiot Minister pulled his head out of his arse and actually bothered to read the Report then things might be different?
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Old 24th May 2013, 05:14
  #1849 (permalink)  
 
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Chapter 7, page 1 says it all

Chapter 7, page 1 says it all.
(Page 90 of the Senate Report)

I feel for the poor old BASI guys, reading this Senate Report, in their nursing homes.
Someone should search a few out, and go and interview them.
ABC 4 Corners producers ?
How about "part two" to "Crash Landing" ?.

For those with long memories back to the 1970's, the old "without fear or favour" BASI reports were worth reading, and learning from. The Recent ATSB reports are not (eg: Norfolk, Lockhart River, Canley Vale, and manyothers).

Compare CASA to the old DCA ?
Let's not go there just now.

The Senate Committee Report's Recomendations are a "sighting" in the right direction, but only that, only a "sighting". They are not a "bearing", let alone a "course", let alone a "track made good".

Will they be accepted, by the parliament, the minister, the ATSB, or CASA ?
Will they be implented in actual fact ?
Will there be "RESISTENCE", with only "lip service" paid ?
Will there only be a few "adjustments" around the edges, to give the perception of "a fix" ?

SUCH ORGANISATIONS AS THESE ARE VERY ADEPT AT DEFLECTING ATTACKS ON THEMSELVES.
Besides, there will be an election in a few months.
They only need to play the waiting game.

It begs the question though, how do you fix a system so, so, so terribly broken ?

Start again, with two independent clean sheets of paper, with a demand that they never be allowed to get into bed again ?
Now who would have the balls to do that ?
The relevant shadow minister is .............. ?

Last edited by ventus45; 24th May 2013 at 05:38.
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Old 24th May 2013, 05:25
  #1850 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ventus45
It begs the question though, how do you fix a system so, so, so terribly broken ?
Aviation is a "high profile" industry, imagine what it would be like for industries out of the spotlight. We also have two competent individuals with their own lives on the line & the authority to act as gatekeepers, and generally to prevent/repair reckless organizational behavior from having fatal consequences.

Most, if not all industries have captured their regulators & legislators. We really have entered the law of the jungle where "might is right". Aviation is just a visible symptom (to us) of a much larger problem.

God help anyone that ends up on the wrong side of a ANY industry behemoth, you are at their mercy.

Last edited by breakfastburrito; 24th May 2013 at 05:29.
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Old 24th May 2013, 05:40
  #1851 (permalink)  
 
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Sunfish asked:
The question to me is if CASA and ATSB will try to brazen it out.
You have your answer, Sunfish:
The federal government has declared it has full confidence in Australia's aviation safety agencies.
And for those of you who are appalled at that, I’ve worse news for you: If there is a change of the government, the new government will say exactly the same thing.

Of course, they don’t mean it. But their most important priority is to make the punters “feel” safe.
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Old 24th May 2013, 05:51
  #1852 (permalink)  
 
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Quote: The federal government has declared it has full confidence in Australia's aviation safety agencies.

This statement by "someone unnamed" in the federal government, would smack to me of an attitude of total contempt for the Senate Hearings system. I see from Google that the story is getting a fair amount of foreign press coverage. Makes you want to cringe with embarrassment.
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Old 24th May 2013, 06:02
  #1853 (permalink)  
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Perhaps if the idiot Minister pulled his head out of his arse and actually bothered to read the Report then things might be different?
Only one problem, he would not know what he was reading
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Old 24th May 2013, 06:43
  #1854 (permalink)  
 
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If there is a change of the government, the new government will say exactly the same thing.
Creamie,
With all due respect, not only do I hope that is not true, for once I have some confidence in recent statements by Warren Truss, and I look forward to his announcement of L-NP aviation policy for the election.

Of course, we have some formidable aviation knowledge in the form of Senator Fawcett, and the practical aviation background of Senator Heffernan and several others should not be discounted.

Maybe this report is enough to produce another John Sharp, a (new) Minister with determination to make a difference. At least the Nats. understand about travelling in the bush.

The Minister's reaction to the report is quite predictable. The idea that there might actually be more votes in taking decisive action to clean out the Augean Stables that characterizes CASA ( and to salvage ATSB, which is "doable", and far less a problem than CASA), obviously has not occurred, or maybe it has, and the Minister's actions are the result of a very able politician's decision. Albo may be a lot of things, but a political fool is not one of them.

If you understand what an FAA downgrade to Cat. 2 would mean, it would be an absolute financial disaster for Virgin and Qantas, one such disaster component would be the immediate cessation of all code shares with US carriers.

Tootle pip!!

Last edited by LeadSled; 24th May 2013 at 06:51.
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Old 24th May 2013, 06:58
  #1855 (permalink)  
 
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one such disaster component would be the immediate cessation of all code shares with US carriers.
And in revenge for that dastardly move, The Australian government would immediately stop all shipments of kangaroo pet meat to USA.
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Old 24th May 2013, 06:59
  #1856 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe this report is enough to produce another John Sharp, a Minister with determination to make a difference.
Tell me you are joking! The same bloke who as a director of Rex was up to his neck in the whole Pel-Air cover up by CASA!


With all due respect, not only do I hope that is not true, for once I have some confidence in recent statements by Warren Truss,
Hope is not enough LS and can you point us in the direction of those statements I would be interested in seeing them.

The Minister's reaction to the report is quite predictable
I agree with you there which is why I have not held out much hope for the released report to be a "game changer"

As for you Sunfish, calling me a troll is the funniest thing I've read in ages.
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Old 24th May 2013, 07:38
  #1857 (permalink)  
 
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POSITIONS VACANT

ventus45:
It begs the question though, how do you fix a system so, so, so terribly broken ?

Start again, with two independent clean sheets of paper, with a demand that they never be allowed to get into bed again ?
Now who would have the balls to do that ?
The relevant shadow minister is .............. ?
How indeed?

CJ love it!
• Marty, the 'messiah of beyond reason' must go. Yes the star Beaker must take his 30 years of bureaucratic experience and perhaps conduct risk management on Manus Island and risk rank the safety levels of seized asylum seeker boats as to their capability of joining the Australian Navy vessel fleet now that Swannny has conceded financially we are f#cked.
Okay and Leadie has an idea on who to replace him with…

Leadie: "In the normal course of events, should we not expect the immediate resignation of the Chief Commissioner --- this job turned out to be a poisoned chalice for a prominent public servant, but one with limited, if any, technical knowledge or experience in this field...Who should the replacement be --- several names have been canvassed in this thread....I want to add another, imminently qualified to meet the inquiry recommendation for minimum qualifications to be the ATSB Chief Commissioner. He is the present industry head of the CASA SCC, and an old BASI/ATSB (and the same job in other countries) hand."

Not a bad choice Leadie did a quick background on whom you were talking about and he certainly has the CV to fit…but what about Fort Fumble Leadie any ideas there?

Maybe a few ideas from the “IOS” Board…


max1 said: "Maybe the best way to deal with the boys club is to put a woman in charge?...Margaret Staib seems to be quietly getting on with it at ASA."

And Creamy agreed:"Hear! Hear!...Bring back “Maxim Mary” Schiavo. Anyone but another f8#king airline pilot."

Not my area really but since we’re talking about possible deck chair shuffling and some new chairs to replace some of the rotten, severely sun bleached old chairs…here’s a position that some on here may want to consider advertised yesterday….
SECTION 1 – POSITION ATTRIBUTES
Title
Manager Flight Operations
Classification
Senior Manager Group D
Division
Standards
Branch
Flight Standards
Location
Canberra
Position Number
2637
Reports To
Manager Flight Standards Branch
Number of Subordinates
18 and additional contractors staff as required
Security Level
Entry
Safety Sensitive position
Yes
Authorised by P&P
May 2013


SECTION 2 – OVERVIEW OF THE ROLE
Overview of the Division
The Standards Division principal role is the development of aviation safety standards and guidance material, the implementation of these regulatory changes, standardisation activities across CASA and the carriage of CASA’s initial and continuing airworthiness functions. The division comprises four branches:
• Flight Standards;
• Airworthiness and Engineering Standards;
• Standards Development and Quality Assurance;
• Operations Regulations Implementation
The basic functions located in this division are:
• Development of standards and regulations, including associated policies, standards and guidance material, for all aviation safety activities.
• Management of engineering, certification, manufacturing and continuing airworthiness processes and the resolution of technical issues in relation to airframes, avionics, propulsion and mechanical systems.
• Management of the program, projects and processes required to implement regulatory change.
• Management of internal quality assurance and associated processes as they relate to regulatory standards and guidance material, together with a lead role in regulatory standardisation processes within CASA.

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/lib100207/2637.pdf
So anyone interested? You don’t need much, the acting knob only has a PPL and is a member of an aeroclub…
Mandatory

• Extensive experience in the management of complex regulatory and standards development projects.

• Demonstrated capability of successfully managing a multi-disciplined team.

• Aviation industry experience.

• Comprehensive working knowledge of the Australian aviation safety legislation as relevant to the role.
…poison chalice you say? Well maybe but come on you get to go on Montreal jaunts…
8. Represent CASA at national and international aviation safety forums regarding Australia’s flight operations standards program.
Come on you know you want to?? And I’m sure Oleo or Kharon will be your referees, although they may not advance your chances if the current DAS is still around?

No takers?

Oh well it seems it may be a far easier task to find a Chief Commissioner for the bureau than trying to fill most positions within the toxic environment of FF…hmm unless of course you’re a ‘yes man’ with sociopath tendencies!


By the way here's another rant from the DAS having a crack at those "Ills of Society"...."Consistent with our obligations to ensure fairness and propriety in the conduct of our enforcement processes, CASA avoids engaging in any public discussion of the issues that are before the court or the tribunal. Unfortunately, this does not prevent others from doing so. Comments and remarks about CASA’s actions often appear in various news media that are incomplete, inaccurate and sometimes misleading. I believe this is unfair and unhelpful"... (click here for full text).

Oh well at least he is consistent...Oz article 2009, "IOS" forever!

Ben on 'full government support' comment.

Last edited by Sarcs; 24th May 2013 at 07:53. Reason: Vote 'one' for Oleo as IOS board member!
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Old 24th May 2013, 08:16
  #1858 (permalink)  
 
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You would know exactly where you stood if 'Chopper Reid" was running the show.

In his absence, I have often nominated 'The Mafia', again because you know what to expect and where you stand in the big scheme of things.

And they are self funding.

Oh! and who can forget 'The Drovers Dog'?

I wouldn't mind reading The National's 'white paper'.

Last edited by Frank Arouet; 24th May 2013 at 08:18. Reason: Important comma for Big Tonys peace of mind.
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Old 24th May 2013, 09:15
  #1859 (permalink)  
 
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lobby for the recommendations

Well done Senators X and F! You blokes do good work!

The problems are systemic.

We need independent and capable Boards to enure the next pair of clowns (Directors) are managed. These two clowns deserve to be pilloried and have tomatoes and scorn thrown at them in the middle of Civic; then put into custody- even better.

But the next pair need watching by independent capable people with nothing to lose.

Minister, you need to revamp the CASA Board and put in people who will do more than inspect their CASA Board remuneration packages, and build a new Board for ATSB.

If the Minister for bad teeth does nothing as is expected, then that just underlines this governments overall approach to aviation (and airpprts).
So 'tis time to lobby the libs also, methinks.

But right now the stench of rotting ethics and incompetence is sickening. The system needs a good dose of disinfectant of the sort that the senators propose: (inquisition, exposure, clarification and transparency).

I for one will lobby the Minister and the shadow Minister; and no elaboration is needed.

All it needs is a letter which says "The Senate Report on Aviation Accident Investigations must be considered and acted upon immediately, in the interests of aviation safety" or some similar.

Please consider lobbying.

Seabreeze
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Old 24th May 2013, 09:30
  #1860 (permalink)  
 
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Albanese comments

I cannot believe Albo has come out saying they have total confidence in CASA and the ATSB!! Is he blind or reading a different report???
Doesn't really matter much though as in September Albo will realise the Australian public have no confidence in him!

This whole circus would be laughable if it wasn't so serious!
Great job Senators!
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