Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011
Proactive vs reactive!
Couldn't have said it better myself TB 
, the comparison is stark!
Here's a link for those 'safety alerts' and a pdf link for the 'presentation'.
It is also interesting to view the NTSB Chairman's blog, in relation to the subject, versus mi..mi..mi Beaker's blog that seeks to justify where the ATSB focuses its resources in investigating accidents...hmm bit like chalk and cheese or proactive vs reactive!
NTSB Chairman's blog: Break the Pattern | NTSB Safety Compass
Beaker's blog: Focusing our investigative resources
Top catch PAIN!
, the comparison is stark!Here's a link for those 'safety alerts' and a pdf link for the 'presentation'.
It is also interesting to view the NTSB Chairman's blog, in relation to the subject, versus mi..mi..mi Beaker's blog that seeks to justify where the ATSB focuses its resources in investigating accidents...hmm bit like chalk and cheese or proactive vs reactive!
NTSB Chairman's blog: Break the Pattern | NTSB Safety Compass
Beaker's blog: Focusing our investigative resources
Top catch PAIN!
So don't be afraid to let them show
Your true colors
True colors are beautiful,
Like a rainbow
thanks sarcs . . . .. . . . lovely lyrics . .. .. .
the soul of the melancholy poet is the
more profound
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Wow, three top post one after t'other. The published article and the support the NTSB is throwing at the project, for my money makes it one of the very best initiatives ever. Just goes to show what a team of professional safety guru's can come up with and how to do it. Other national safety authorities have a new bench mark and can only follow the leader. Well done (again) NTSB. The logic is remarkable:-this keeps happening, we have years of statistics proving it, so; lets try and prevent recurrent events. No idea who dreamed up the scheme, but I'd like to buy the first round and shake a couple of hands.
Somehow, I just can't seem to transmogrify Wodger's puling little diatribe into a safety case remotely resembling the NTSB effort.
TB
- very droll, I intend to steal it......
Plagiarism and Pete rule...OK....
Somehow, I just can't seem to transmogrify Wodger's puling little diatribe into a safety case remotely resembling the NTSB effort.
TB
“Legislate, castigate, castrate”
Plagiarism and Pete rule...OK....
Last edited by Kharon; 21st May 2013 at 21:00.
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It isn't out yet!
But this is the link to the page where the report will be posted. Or another interim statement.
Senate Committees ? Parliament of Australia
Hopefully plenty to read later today.
But this is the link to the page where the report will be posted. Or another interim statement.
Senate Committees ? Parliament of Australia
Hopefully plenty to read later today.
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"Let justice be done though the heavens fall."
Only a couple of 'juicy' morsels from the Gobbledock overnight, claims he found them on Willyleaks but I reckon he was in a pub somewhere. Apparently, McComic is going be in Cairns trying to flog part 161 to the Heathen (code for helicopter menders) while the 500 page report, subject of much press interest is sliced and diced. GD advises that we are to watch the ABC at 7 30, seems the 'ills of society' are to get a little more air time. This of course could all be bollocks; but, if the 7 30 Report is going to interview Pete – I'm staying in to watch.
Fantome - I cribbed this from Wiki – the motto triggered the memory.
Fantome - I cribbed this from Wiki – the motto triggered the memory.
Seneca: "Piso's justice"
In De Ira (On Anger), Book I, Chapter XVIII, Seneca tells of Gnaeus Piso, a Roman governor and lawmaker, when he was angry, ordering the execution of a soldier who had returned from a leave of absence without his comrade, on the ground that if the man did not produce his companion, he had presumably killed the latter.
As the condemned man was presenting his neck to the executioner's sword, there suddenly appeared the very comrade who was supposedly murdered. The centurion overseeing the execution halted the proceedings and led the condemned man back to Piso, expecting a reprieve. But Piso mounted the tribunal in a rage, and ordered the three soldiers to be executed. He ordered the death of the man who was to have been executed, because the sentence had already been passed; he also ordered the death of the centurion who was in charge of the original execution, for failing to perform his duty; and finally, he ordered the death of the man who had been supposed to have been murdered, because he had been the cause of death of two innocent men.
In subsequent versions of this legend, this principle became known as "Piso’s justice", a term that characterize sentences that are carried out or passed of retaliation — whose intentions are technically correct, but morally wrong — and this could be construed as a negative interpretation of the meaning of Fiat justitia ruat caelum.
In De Ira (On Anger), Book I, Chapter XVIII, Seneca tells of Gnaeus Piso, a Roman governor and lawmaker, when he was angry, ordering the execution of a soldier who had returned from a leave of absence without his comrade, on the ground that if the man did not produce his companion, he had presumably killed the latter.
As the condemned man was presenting his neck to the executioner's sword, there suddenly appeared the very comrade who was supposedly murdered. The centurion overseeing the execution halted the proceedings and led the condemned man back to Piso, expecting a reprieve. But Piso mounted the tribunal in a rage, and ordered the three soldiers to be executed. He ordered the death of the man who was to have been executed, because the sentence had already been passed; he also ordered the death of the centurion who was in charge of the original execution, for failing to perform his duty; and finally, he ordered the death of the man who had been supposed to have been murdered, because he had been the cause of death of two innocent men.
In subsequent versions of this legend, this principle became known as "Piso’s justice", a term that characterize sentences that are carried out or passed of retaliation — whose intentions are technically correct, but morally wrong — and this could be construed as a negative interpretation of the meaning of Fiat justitia ruat caelum.
Last edited by Kharon; 22nd May 2013 at 19:21. Reason: Waiting for the bloody Muzac to stop.
Bloody insomnia . .. . . did the Romans invent that too?
Now with bated breath . .. . . stick out the GONE FISHING...... there was a pretty little yacht, moored just down the bay. My Nan remembers the occasion well. Now she is on Mac Is , saving to become a rotary life saver
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Seante report.
Once again the Secretariat of the RRAT committee have done a first class job, nicely compressed easily downloadable version.
Pel Air Report.
Zippy share download link. Use the "Download Now" button, tracking off.
P4. a.k.a. the Ferret.
Pel Air Report.
Zippy share download link. Use the "Download Now" button, tracking off.
P4. a.k.a. the Ferret.
Report out!
Report is out 176 pages of it..whoah! Like the first couple of recommendations:
More to follow it's a big read!
ps worth going to page 163 of the pdf for Senator X's additional comments....top stuff Nick don't hold back!
Recommendation 1
3.68 The committee recommends that the ATSB retrieve VH-NGA flight data recorders without further delay.
Recommendation 2
4.41 The committee recommends that the minister, in issuing a new Statement of Expectations to the ATSB, valid from 1 July 2013, make it clear that safety in aviation operations involving passengers (fare paying or those with no control over the flight they are on, e.g. air ambulance) is to be accorded equal priority irrespective of flight classification
3.68 The committee recommends that the ATSB retrieve VH-NGA flight data recorders without further delay.
Recommendation 2
4.41 The committee recommends that the minister, in issuing a new Statement of Expectations to the ATSB, valid from 1 July 2013, make it clear that safety in aviation operations involving passengers (fare paying or those with no control over the flight they are on, e.g. air ambulance) is to be accorded equal priority irrespective of flight classification
More to follow it's a big read!
ps worth going to page 163 of the pdf for Senator X's additional comments....top stuff Nick don't hold back!
Last edited by Sarcs; 23rd May 2013 at 02:04.
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...and now the fun begins!!
Hope the nay sayers, no hopers and wannabe professional pilots that inhabit this site can now see the reasons for my staunch defense of the crew.
There's a massive problem in Australian aviation and maybe this is the start of bringing the house back into order.
One can live in hope!!
Hope the nay sayers, no hopers and wannabe professional pilots that inhabit this site can now see the reasons for my staunch defense of the crew.
There's a massive problem in Australian aviation and maybe this is the start of bringing the house back into order.
One can live in hope!!
The committee recommends that the ATSB retrieve VH-NGA flight data recorders without further delay.
The last organisation you’d want to get access to the recorders is the ATSB. The second last organisation you’d want is CASA. Waaaay too much skin in this game.
If the ATSB gets hold of the recorders and reports: “Unfortunately, the recorders were irreparably damaged as a consequence of the impact and the passage of time underwater”, who’d believe them?
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Inquiry Results
The following certainly puts both casa and atsb in the firing line [my bold]:
Great report, with what the Industry has been saying for years.
Full report here: Final Report | Assistance to the Aviation Industry
Spin merchants - You have been recognised!!
Well done Senators!!
A number of changes have been made by the operator (Chapter 5) and the regulator (Chapter 6) since the ditching. The committee is convinced that having these measures in place before the ditching would have significantly reduced the risk of the accident occurring. To simply focus on the actions of the pilot and not discuss the deficiencies of the system as a whole is unhelpful. It is disappointing that CASA and the ATSB continue to assert, in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the only part of the system with any effect on the accident sequence was the pilot.
Full report here: Final Report | Assistance to the Aviation Industry
Spin merchants - You have been recognised!!
Well done Senators!!
Last edited by Up-into-the-air; 23rd May 2013 at 03:42.
Yep great report with some very relevant recommendations. ATSB and to a lessor extent CASA come out looking dodgy. Do you know what happens now? The government has 3 months to reply. That reply is drafted by the same agencies that the report critisizes, three months from now the current government is in caretaker mode then there is an election. Assuming a new government they take a few months to get into the groove of being in power, then its Christmas the summer holidays and now its February 2014.
Unless there is another major aviation event in that time this report goes the way of the others. If anyone can present another timeline that isn't based on the premise that "this time it will be different because we want it to be" then I will willingy change my mind. What I have described is what happened to the last Senate report into aviation safety. If you think prune was any less passionate about that one, go have a look at the threads back then.
For Ziggy I hope you continue to push for reform and not let it get you down. The best thing you can do with this report is send a copy to your contacts in the FAA and ICAO.
As for this comment:
This is what the report said and this has been my position all along (with thanks to Sarcs and his researching skills)
Unless there is another major aviation event in that time this report goes the way of the others. If anyone can present another timeline that isn't based on the premise that "this time it will be different because we want it to be" then I will willingy change my mind. What I have described is what happened to the last Senate report into aviation safety. If you think prune was any less passionate about that one, go have a look at the threads back then.
For Ziggy I hope you continue to push for reform and not let it get you down. The best thing you can do with this report is send a copy to your contacts in the FAA and ICAO.
As for this comment:
...and now the fun begins!!Hope the nay sayers, no hopers and wannabe professional pilots that inhabit this site can now see the reasons for my staunch defense of the crew.
The committee accepts that the pilot in command made errors on the night, and this inquiry was not an attempt to vindicate him.
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Behind the scenes.
PAIN would like to extend sincere thanks and appreciation for the courtesy, efficiency, patience and dilligence shown during the inquiry to the following officers:-
Secretariat
Mr Stephen Palethorpe, Secretary
Ms Lyn Beverley, Inquiry Secretary (from 13 September 2012)
Dr Chris Curran, Principal Research Officer
Mr Terry Brown, Principal Research Officer (from 14 January 2013)
Ms Natasha Rusjakovski, Principal Research Officer (from 3 December 2012)
Ms Meg Banfield, Principal Research Officer (from 13 September to 21 December
2012)
Ms Trish Carling, Senior Research Officer
Mr Nick Craft, Senior Research Officer (from 26 November 2012)
Ms Kirsty Cattanach, Research Officer (from 7 January 2013)
Ms Cassimah Mackay, Research Officer (to 12 December 2012)
Ms Lauren Carnevale, Administrative Officer (from 24 September 2012)
Ms Carol Stewart, Administrative Officer (from 13 March to 21 September 2012)
Well done. I am led to believe that Chocolate frogs and Tim Tams are awarded to those who the Pprune crew appreciate. Please consider yourselves duly honoured.
P1. a.k.a. P1.
Secretariat
Mr Stephen Palethorpe, Secretary
Ms Lyn Beverley, Inquiry Secretary (from 13 September 2012)
Dr Chris Curran, Principal Research Officer
Mr Terry Brown, Principal Research Officer (from 14 January 2013)
Ms Natasha Rusjakovski, Principal Research Officer (from 3 December 2012)
Ms Meg Banfield, Principal Research Officer (from 13 September to 21 December
2012)
Ms Trish Carling, Senior Research Officer
Mr Nick Craft, Senior Research Officer (from 26 November 2012)
Ms Kirsty Cattanach, Research Officer (from 7 January 2013)
Ms Cassimah Mackay, Research Officer (to 12 December 2012)
Ms Lauren Carnevale, Administrative Officer (from 24 September 2012)
Ms Carol Stewart, Administrative Officer (from 13 March to 21 September 2012)
Well done. I am led to believe that Chocolate frogs and Tim Tams are awarded to those who the Pprune crew appreciate. Please consider yourselves duly honoured.
P1. a.k.a. P1.
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There is a huge amount on Plane Talking and I just noticed the latest one says the Senators have referred CASA to the Federal Police for a possible breach of the safety information act.
CASA referred to Federal Police by Senate committee | Plane Talking
Earlier they warned CASA not to intimidate or disadvantage witnesses who gave evidence under parliamentary privilege.
Damning Senate report on ATSB, CASA Pel-Air failings | Plane Talking
This is incredible stuff. Well done you guys and girls who have been fighting for this for so long.
CASA referred to Federal Police by Senate committee | Plane Talking
Earlier they warned CASA not to intimidate or disadvantage witnesses who gave evidence under parliamentary privilege.
Damning Senate report on ATSB, CASA Pel-Air failings | Plane Talking
he committee took the unprecedented step in Senate hearings of this nature of warning CASA not to offend the protections of parliamentary privilege by causing ‘adverse consequences” to witnesses in the aviation industry who had assisted the committee with their submissions or in session, sometimes closed session testimonies.