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Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011

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Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011

Old 20th Feb 2013, 10:06
  #1081 (permalink)  
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Justiceseeker, we are glad to have a person of justice joining in, welcome and shalom
But you must not feed the trolls whilst inside the circus tent viewing the show. Blackie tends to get very upset when harassed, so best not bait the beast.
Blackie, in his own way, eagerly awaits the outcome of this robust inquiry as do many of us. Perhaps he, like others, is awaiting the opportunity to jump into some vacated CASA seats once the music stops? There will be a plethora of bobbing apples to choose from
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Old 20th Feb 2013, 11:07
  #1082 (permalink)  
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Blackie, enough of the insults, each pruner is welcome to their opinions.

For those who are concerned, the Senators aren't listening to 'some of us', they are listening to industry, listening to those undergoing questioning who reside in the ivory towers and they are examining the evidence.
Perhaps they do read prune, just for a few s#its and giggles, but they aren't conducting an inquiry into aviation issues based on pruners commentary.

Back to the thread......

Last edited by my oleo is extended; 20th Feb 2013 at 11:09.
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Old 20th Feb 2013, 11:40
  #1083 (permalink)  
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"Every man for himself"!

On page 9 of the Hansard Senator Fawcett nails the implications of such an ugly cover-up..."Think about the reasonable man in the street, seeing a statement like that—which said: 'We won't go any further down this path, because we're happy the regulator his doing his job'—and knowing that the regulator had internal reports saying that the FRMS was not adequate. I accept your position: the UK is not necessarily an answer. But the issue for this inquiry is that you had in your possession information that would have triggered to the ATSB the fact that your oversight was not adequate. They were assuming that it was a defence that was in place and effective. You had written evidence saying that that was not the case. And by not disclosing that information, you have in fact shaped the outcome of the ATSB report. That is one of the concerns that the committee has...."

And yet it takes at least another two pages for the DAS to concede that maybe he got it wrong!!The mind boggles...

Last edited by Sarcs; 20th Feb 2013 at 11:42.
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Old 20th Feb 2013, 11:51
  #1084 (permalink)  
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So blackie, basically your saying that Fawcett has no credentials, experience or probity to be involved in an enquiry of the CASA. Perhaps you can suggest someone who could take his place? Oh, and I assume Black Hand is a "Non de Plume?" either that or your Mum has or had an odd sense of humour.
This thread is generating incredible interest and discussion, if the Casa sexuals, as you call them, are avoiding debate then they have run out or arguments.

Last edited by thorn bird; 20th Feb 2013 at 11:58.
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Old 20th Feb 2013, 12:01
  #1085 (permalink)  
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Further to Blackie's last comment - could you please elaborate on why Sen X hasn't got a brain? Is there something that you could point to that would support that opinion? And you started on Fawcett but didn't finish - a penny for your thoughts on him?
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Old 20th Feb 2013, 12:07
  #1086 (permalink)  
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Blackhand....... you really are a disgrace putting comments like that out. No better really than the clowns undergoing a grilling at the enquiry!
Geez! What ******* coward you are sir!
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Old 20th Feb 2013, 12:09
  #1087 (permalink)  
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Well Blackie its nice you have an opinion. It would be nice if you defended your position with facts or at least spirited argument. Insults and character attacks however do little to further your argument, in fact quite the opposite,
have you noticed other posters are now tending to ignore you/ as I now intend to do.
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Old 20th Feb 2013, 12:15
  #1088 (permalink)  
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None of them have the experience to understand the most basic concept of carrying out an audit and corrective actions.
Isn't that what the Chambers report said about CASA?

Their underlying premise is that there is collusion between John McCormick and Doolan
I think the committee has moved on from that premise and are now looking at CASA withholding information relevant to the investigation.

As said, the pilot fcked up
Even the Senator who is allegedly not qualified to ask questions about a subject he has experience in has said the inquiry is not there to exonerate the pilot. If CASA had been doing their job properly that pilot would probably not have been flying that operation. They should have required greater PIC experience and a more robust operation to support what was in effect ETOPs jet operations regardless of the category.

The ATSB would be better off in considering CASA to be part of the problem not part of the solution and they should get back to issuing recommendations that require a satisfactory response before they are closed off.

Then again that is just my opinion.
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Old 20th Feb 2013, 12:22
  #1089 (permalink)  
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Oh dear, well folks, the industry is in the mess its in, and its all the pilots fault!!! Sigh!
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Old 20th Feb 2013, 12:32
  #1090 (permalink)  
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Hmmmm. I've seen this all before. A poster throws about some personal attacks, everybody fires back, the air turns blue and hey presto - thread locked! A clever tactic to undertake when one doesn't like what is being posted.
I would suggest ignoring 'the abusive one', and hopefully he wakes up in a better mood tomorrow.

Basically we have a number of different observers in here - pro CASA, anti CASA, the undecided and the 'watchers'.. I'm no angel, but lets get back to the inquiry at hand. Irrespective of personal opinions the facts remain that for whatever reason our industry is in deep sh#t, there is an uneven playing field, safety and standards have declined and GA is disappearing like an arctic iceberg, airport infrastructure is overloaded and the regulatory bodies are failing us by chasing rogue chopper pilots, spending money watering pot plants and shooting their feet off every time they speak or perform some ludicrous act.

Support the inquiry...

'Bring back safety'.

Last edited by my oleo is extended; 20th Feb 2013 at 12:39.
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Old 20th Feb 2013, 12:55
  #1091 (permalink)  
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Counting robust sheep

Sleep well gents and ladettes, I have an early flight to take out in the morning and I can only imagine the amount of MEL's it will have, as usual. If only we had additional sign-on time!
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Old 20th Feb 2013, 14:27
  #1092 (permalink)  
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Have you ever read Senator (previously Lt. Col) Fawcett's CV.
You might find it very enlightening, you might find him being very qualified, with a quite remarkable range of aviation and military command experience, including in areas where you consider (on what basis?) that he has no qualifications. After all, he isn't "just a pilot".

Tootle pip!!
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Old 20th Feb 2013, 16:51
  #1093 (permalink)  
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Four Corners

Are ABC planning a follow up.

There are some good sound bites from the inquiry.

Last edited by halfmanhalfbiscuit; 20th Feb 2013 at 17:52.
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Old 20th Feb 2013, 21:35
  #1094 (permalink)  
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12 Good men and true – Part 1.

Sarcs, perhaps I will in due course put this saga into a potted fairy story. Perhaps, when all the squalid details from the Senate enquiry are revealed, the "story version" will be more readily understood. Right now, we are only scratching the surface, much "drilling down" is yet required. So I'm afraid it's cut and dried only today.

LS# 1128 –"Have you ever read Senator (previously Lt. Col) Fawcett's CV. You might find it very enlightening, you might find him being very qualified, with a quite remarkable range of aviation and military command experience, including in areas where you consider (on what basis?) that he has no qualifications. After all, he isn't "just a pilot".
One of the many subjects on discussion at last evening's special Bar Room Barristers sit down, (somewhere between soup and the nuts) was the vexed question of qualifications and resume details. Now then, the public résumé's of some CASA stars have been examined in some detail. The verdict was unanimous; "We, the jury find it passing strange that a report written by a man of integrity, impeccable qualification, intelligence and respect should have been treated in the cavalier manner it was".

Point 1) It was generally agreed that if "he who must not be named" was so desperate to have a warts and all report on the state of the organisation; there were (are?) several very suitable, reputable, respected candidates to choose from; all of whom were eminently qualified to conduct the enquiry in an open, fair, balanced honest fashion. Particularly as the report was to be "warts and all". Ben Cook to name just one.

Clearly the ADF Directorate of Defence Aviation & Air force Safety valued his opinion over that of an 'acting' manager with an Air Force career qualification not quite suitable for the task; which may explain, in part why the position was not offered to the "Author". But the DAS had his hand picked man, so all was well.

Point 2) There are numerous instances, on public record where the DAS has "instructed" the "Author" of the "Chambers Report" directly, had discussions with and communicated frequently. Yet the "author" of the part plagiarised, part bastardised internal weapon against his own troops can, under oath in the AAT draw the following conclusions from the inestimable John Langmead SC.

Extract – AAT - File No 3553 of 2010 - Avtex Air Services Pty Ltd.
"CASA officers have equated any group of allegations and in some cases single allegations, with adverse safety culture, and have also used the term loosely and inadequately. Weeks sought to wield the term safety culture on the basis of his 5 days of training. Chambers sought to do the same thing with a little more “formal training” behind him, 7 days."

"One difficulty in the matter is that CASA officers such as Mr Chambers, and below him Mr DuBois, with no formal professional ethical obligation to impede willingness to make allegations of the most serious kind, were subjected to the apparent need to treat consideration of action against the Applicant as of unprecedented importance. That is the clear implication arising from the fact that the CEO of CASA became involved in discussion of the nature of the action to be taken, something never previously experienced by Mr Chambers." - My bold.
So the questions mount, just on this one point, stand alone. Has the truth, like the text in the Cook report been manipulated to suit some clandestine purpose ?. It's a fair question a reasonable, well informed man (or woman) may ask.

One thing is abundantly clear, supported by the chronology, statements, documents and facts the Pel Air investigation and any other investigation managed by this somewhat under qualified, willing accomplice need to be fully re examined; by a competent, independent legal authority, under rules requiring real evidence to beyond reasonable doubt. People like Karen Casey, Shane Urquhart, Gary Currall etc. etc. deserve the courtesy of the truth, at the very least. Some boys and girls, sitting in air conditioned comfort, surrounded by pot plants and coffee machines need to look deeply into their consciences and get in first. The bus is coming, next stop the Styx houseboat.

Enough of my twiddles for today – but you do see that this is not a simple, isolated problem. The whole thing stinks to the high heavens.


Last edited by Kharon; 20th Feb 2013 at 22:15. Reason: Alert: black paw prints on screen - THANKS mods.
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Old 20th Feb 2013, 23:52
  #1095 (permalink)  
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Reasoned argument welcome.

'We' found the "Blackhand" posts offensive, not only to the other posters but to the spirit and intent of this forum. This 'thread' has been averaging 2800 reads a day. The subject is important, the readership wide and expecting to see reasoned debate from professional aviators on a critical, safety related matter. Pro or con.

More importantly, the Senate has released the last enquiry Hansard; it is available with the usual provisions from Zippyshare – Hansard – download or directly from the - Senate - website.

P7 a.k.a. TOM. On duty all day.

Last edited by PAIN_NET; 20th Feb 2013 at 23:53. Reason: "K" the tune was 'Bill and Ben, the flower pot men'.
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 00:30
  #1096 (permalink)  
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page 55 and that's it

Why can't i get past page 55? i click on take me to last post and repeatedly get page 55 when there are more listed
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 01:04
  #1097 (permalink)  
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DAS assistance!

"K" top post! Is it any wonder that FF continue to lose people of the calibre and expertise of Ben Cook when they are answerable to numbnuts with questionable credibility and moral fibre?

Anyway back to the Hansard which is a veritable gold mine of information be it tautological or otherwise...on page 5 of the Hansard (amongst other statements) the DAS says...

"Mr McCormick: If I could make two points on that. If you look at the Chambers report—and I will go away and confirm this—to my knowledge the points raised in there are points that are also covered in our special audit report and our accident report. In other words, they are not raising new information; they are raising information about how internal processes in CASA were carried out. As I said, I will check that on notice, if I can; but I think you will find that there is nothing raised in the Chambers report that is not reflected in our accident report..."

Here’s a helpful hand for the DAS and his cohorts…page 21-22 of CAIR 09/3 on Fatigue Management reads:
1.18.2 Fatigue Management

The Chief Pilot also noted that the company operates on FRMS. This program examines a number of factors and gives a score which predicts whether any particular flight will produce levels of fatigue which would not be acceptable for the crew to continue to fly.

The crew on the accident flight were assessed as fit to fly using the predicted and planned flight and duty times and planned rest periods during the stop in Apia.

The planned roster had FAID scores for the captain and first officer of the accident flight as follow:
17 November 2009, Depart 22:00, Arrive 06:30, Daily hours 8.5, FAID score 27.9
18 November 2009, Depart 14:00, Arrive 03:30, Daily hours 13.5, FAID score 50.7
All times are in relation to Sydney

There was no evidence to support any updates to the FAID score based on actual sleep or use of the IFLS. Even with these updates the companies use of a sore of 75 to determine if a pilot is fit to fly is not appropriate as scores need to be determined based on closer examination of the roster patterns themselves i.e. regular RPT during the day is not the same type of operation as ad hoc medevac operations and scores should be varied according to task complexity, workload
(physical and cognitive) and risk.

Coincident with the accident Investigation and as part of the Special Purpose Audit of Pel-air the FRMS was evaluated with the following result:-
  • A problem with Rex/Pel Air’s use of the FRMS and FAID was that no one had a sufficient understanding of FAID, in particular the limitations and assumptions used with the algorithm. Hence, there was not a good understanding of the forecast sleep by the model in determining the fatigue score, an option which is available on some versions of FAID.
  • Other systems based evidence supports the finding that the Pel Air FRMS had a heavy reliance on FAID prior to the accident and that FAID scores became the primary means for making a ‘fly/no fly’ decision. There was evidence to support direct violations of the FRMS processes and policies (as per the FRMS report), which further suggests that work arounds were the norm to achieve operational needs to the detriment of fatigue management.
Errr…nowhere in that passage or indeed in any of the CAIR 09/3 that I can see does the author(s) (presumably ALOO and possibly Chamber Pot) ever state any of the FF oversight/surveillance deficiencies highlighted in either the excellent Pel-Air FRMS Special Audit report or the ‘Chambers Report’.

In fact CAIR 09/3 in its entirety can only ever be read by the discerning ‘man at the back of the room’ as a complete cover up/smoke screen of the findings of Ben Cook and his fellow human factors colleague as well as the findings contained in the ‘Chambers Report’! So sorry Mr DAS no choccy frog for you as no amount of spin or legal tap dancing can swerve around the truth in this matter.

For those interested in refreshing their memory on the infamous and hidden CAIR 09/3 here is the link where you’ll find it buried up the back:

Reference FF submission Attachment 5 Senate Committees – Parliament of Australia
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 01:06
  #1098 (permalink)  
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No Hoper, there is a glitch in the PPRuNe matrix old son. A lot of the threads are indicating page numbers that don't exist. There is nothing wrong with your computer. I imagine the I.T boffins will iron it out eventually.
Best Regards
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 05:42
  #1099 (permalink)  
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Sorry No Hoper, it was Fencehopper who was having issues with the pages! My mistake. As for your wanting robust experience within all things CASA and ATSB I would suggest moving to Australia, then either upset the Regulator by exposing a deficiency, an act of bullying or malfeasance or simply proving that you are correct and they are wrong over a matter. I can assure you that you will then become well acquainted with all their evil ways
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 06:30
  #1100 (permalink)  
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Hansard Feb 15

Some very enlightening reading indeed within the latest instalment of the 'Great Pot Plant' debate.
Some points worth pondering over were these:

'He who shall not be potted' told the Senators that the CASA do operate using effective surveillance tools! Oh really? Then why has the holy grail of inspectorate guidance, the SPM, been a basket case for over 12 years? This Surveillance Procedures Manual was never properly finished or adapted. A half cocked manual of pony poo which nobody liked or thought was effective. The original authors 'intent' was admirable, it's just that for year after year the bureaucrats massaged, reworded, stripped, fondled and tweaked the silly manual. It was a laughing stock. Almost as hilarious as how up until 2010 no new inspector was even handed a copy of the regulations as part of their induction training! It was a 'just wing it and she will be right'!
No, with surveillance processes and training of this calibre it is no wonder the standard of surveillance on operators such as Pel Air and Transair were mentioned as causal factors.

Senator Fawcett was bang on the money. Proper oversight through quality audit and surveillance may have captured some of the pre-existing deficiencies and latent conditions.

The Skull admitted that in many ways he inherited a lemon when he joined CASA. So why didn't he punt his executives that had been part of the bitter lemon flavouring for many years prior to his commencing his tenure, rather than promoting them into higher roles? His comments also don't reflect well on The Minister for Mascot or Sith Mrdak.

Senator X has certainly, and tenaciously, exposed the MOU for the load of tripe that it is, and the fact that 'the potted one' still keeps proclaiming that the 'Chamber pot review' was not relevant to the ATSB investigation is a disgrace. The Senators have clearly exposed a breach of the TSI

And The Skull merrily mentions 'CASA goodwill'?? Try convincing Mr Urquhart and others such as Butson, Repacholi and Quadrio? Ask them about ' CASA good will'?

The Skull mentions CASA 'moving forward' and 'continually improving'???? FOLLY. Regulatory reform has so far taken 24 years to complete and we still ain't there!! Is the potted one deluded, living in cloud cuckoo land?

Mr Skull also mentioned a quote from "1995 Plane Safe Inquiry into Aviation Safety". The potted one uses this report as ammunition to fire upon the aviation industry for criticising the CASA. What a weak deflection, pathetic. No wonder when industry complain they get persecuted for life afterwards. Many in CASA are nothing short of sooks and bullies.

Mr Aleck. He states that in regards to Norfolk 'FRMS issues are debatable'! And he bases his comment on? His frontline experience is? Exactly a point the Senators made, some in high places in CASA do not have the relevant experience for the job. Long term bureaucrats with PHD's are deluded if they think that makes them holier than though.

Collusion. What a robust point that Senator X pushed along! Terry and Sangston were meeting together, having pow wows and yet nobody had records, notes, etc, as mentioned?? Then some time later, after the emails subsided post 'egg on agency face' commentary, the ATSB report is downgraded to a minor????? Hmmmm. What were they discussing at theses meetings - Sewing tips, cake recipes, robust fishing spots on the Fraser coast, Volvo's or hearing aids??

ATSB Investigator - So this person, who is experienced and understands holistic issues has his report downgraded to a minor incident by Sangston with the approval by Beaker, yet he disagrees with their decision and is for better words
told 'tough titties'. What a sham. No wonder the ATSB hierarchy has become such a joke....Lebanon could do a better job!

I believe there is no turning back the clock from here. The Senator have opened the would and the pus is oozing. Time to finish the job by cleansing the would entirely then stitching it back up.

'Safe skies are colluded skies'

Last edited by my oleo is extended; 21st Feb 2013 at 06:56. Reason: Got swamped by the Styx riverboat screaming past me...
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