AIPA President Drops the ball on Lateline 31/10/2011
The CA 330 contract is considerably less than what a QF skipper would earn. The CS contract is only several thousand more than CA - depending on which version you read.
I would be very surprised if you could earn more with CS than QF.
I would be very surprised if you could earn more with CS than QF.
So, generally speaking, the staff of all airlines have a similar financial outcome.
It's a generalisation ....
The point I was trying to make was that ... Qantas don't want to pay an Australian salary, no mater how big or small it is. They don't care if it's bigger than Cathay or smaller than Emirates. that's all just smokescreen. They just don't want to pay it.
They want to pay an Asian salary..
If the Qantas pilots said to management right now ... "we don't want a pay rise, in fact, we'll take a 2% decrease" ... Qantas would still not want to pay it.
The point I was trying to make was that ... Qantas don't want to pay an Australian salary, no mater how big or small it is. They don't care if it's bigger than Cathay or smaller than Emirates. that's all just smokescreen. They just don't want to pay it.
They want to pay an Asian salary..
If the Qantas pilots said to management right now ... "we don't want a pay rise, in fact, we'll take a 2% decrease" ... Qantas would still not want to pay it.
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Peuce,
It appears that you have swallowed the stuff that is being pedalled in the media. I cannot find anywhere in reliable sources as opposed to assertions that Qantas is in any way attempting to reduce their pilots pay.
I can find quotes by union reps stating that they believe that if the Qantas pilots offered to work for nothing Qantas would still not agree to their job security claims. They are 2 entirely different things.
That is in the same boat as Tony Sheldon stating that Qantas is trying to transfer 35,000 good Australian jobs to Asia. I cannot imagine how a bag slinger based in Asia can load and unload bags at Sydney airport. If Qantas was successful in basing 35,000 employees in Asia, that would mean that all current employees including Joyce would need to be based in Asia to get to 35,000 in total.
It appears that you have swallowed the stuff that is being pedalled in the media. I cannot find anywhere in reliable sources as opposed to assertions that Qantas is in any way attempting to reduce their pilots pay.
I can find quotes by union reps stating that they believe that if the Qantas pilots offered to work for nothing Qantas would still not agree to their job security claims. They are 2 entirely different things.
That is in the same boat as Tony Sheldon stating that Qantas is trying to transfer 35,000 good Australian jobs to Asia. I cannot imagine how a bag slinger based in Asia can load and unload bags at Sydney airport. If Qantas was successful in basing 35,000 employees in Asia, that would mean that all current employees including Joyce would need to be based in Asia to get to 35,000 in total.
I agree it's all supposition at this stage, as Qantas won't/can't publish their End Game.
All we do know is that 1000 jobs are definitely going, Qantas is establishing another Asian Airline, Qantas constantly laments the misfortunes of it's International Division, Qantas refuses to guarantee job security and Qantas continually prattles on about how "other airlines can pay less, why can't we?".
I guess we could all sit around and play tiddly winks waiting for Qantas to tell the world what it has in mind ... or we could put two and two together.... and ask some questions.
And, for mine, it isn't about the money anymore. I don't think Qantas really cares what the staff get given at the inevitable FWA hearing... as the plan is to eventually replace as many of them as is practicable, and is allowed under the Qantas Sale Act.
My prediction is that either:
All we do know is that 1000 jobs are definitely going, Qantas is establishing another Asian Airline, Qantas constantly laments the misfortunes of it's International Division, Qantas refuses to guarantee job security and Qantas continually prattles on about how "other airlines can pay less, why can't we?".
I guess we could all sit around and play tiddly winks waiting for Qantas to tell the world what it has in mind ... or we could put two and two together.... and ask some questions.
And, for mine, it isn't about the money anymore. I don't think Qantas really cares what the staff get given at the inevitable FWA hearing... as the plan is to eventually replace as many of them as is practicable, and is allowed under the Qantas Sale Act.
My prediction is that either:
- More and more Qantas International flights will spawn from international ports, in internationally registered aircraft with international crews;or
- Australian registered and crewed aircraft will be relegated to feeding an international hub ... from which the aforementioned international aircraft will take over.
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The ideal end game will be along the lines of:
Major base in SIN with Jetstar Asia and the premium carrier operating A320/A330 flying from there to all major cities in Australia. The ground staff will be contractors in Australia abolish the TWU influence.
Unlimited rights from SIN to fly wherever they want.
Destroy mainline international. The premium carrier will replace that. Codeshare with other carriers. Possibly get American to pickup the Pacific or if they can get the Premium Asian carrier to do it. Maybe Jetconnect with 777?
Abolish mainline domestic by playing the 'it's to expensive card'
Once they're all gone they go and repaint/rebrand Jetstar to Qantas and have
everyone in QF uniforms working on Red Tail aircraft again.
On the Red Tail the setup will be:
Jetconnect doing the Tasman/Pacific
What is now Jetstar Australia rebranded as Qantas Domestic.
The premium carrier in SIN picking up all the International flying hubbing through SIN.
There could also be a breakup in play too by where they supposedly run down QF mainline then flog it off to a private company who then either does a Gordon Gecko and sells it off or miraculously turns around QF mainline and paysoff Alan Joyce and Dixon in the process as with the last private equity bid.
Major base in SIN with Jetstar Asia and the premium carrier operating A320/A330 flying from there to all major cities in Australia. The ground staff will be contractors in Australia abolish the TWU influence.
Unlimited rights from SIN to fly wherever they want.
Destroy mainline international. The premium carrier will replace that. Codeshare with other carriers. Possibly get American to pickup the Pacific or if they can get the Premium Asian carrier to do it. Maybe Jetconnect with 777?
Abolish mainline domestic by playing the 'it's to expensive card'
Once they're all gone they go and repaint/rebrand Jetstar to Qantas and have
everyone in QF uniforms working on Red Tail aircraft again.
On the Red Tail the setup will be:
Jetconnect doing the Tasman/Pacific
What is now Jetstar Australia rebranded as Qantas Domestic.
The premium carrier in SIN picking up all the International flying hubbing through SIN.
There could also be a breakup in play too by where they supposedly run down QF mainline then flog it off to a private company who then either does a Gordon Gecko and sells it off or miraculously turns around QF mainline and paysoff Alan Joyce and Dixon in the process as with the last private equity bid.
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I cannot find anywhere in reliable sources as opposed to assertions that Qantas is in any way attempting to reduce their pilots pay.
However, I believe that the main thrust here is to get rid of as many of the pilot body as possible, along with anybody else they can offshore & their EBA's with them. This is so they can get around Australian labor laws, CASA regulation & the Australian taxation system as much as possible. Flight & duty times, reduced taxation, little or no redundancy provisions, along with many other factors, go hand in hand with overall direct cost reductions (salaries, etc), in the never ending quest for greater & greater profits.
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their assertion that they need to offshore jobs in order to cut costs?
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I guess we could all sit around and play tiddly winks waiting for Qantas to tell the world what it has in mind ... or we could put two and two together.... and ask some questions.
Qantas will weather turbulence coming out of Canberra
The attacks on Qantas over who got told what when about the group's decision to ground its aircraft on Saturday is a confection.
To borrrow from Sherlock Holmes, the dog hasn't barked - there is no evidence that the Qantas chief executive, Alan Joyce, has terminally damaged his group's relations with the government.
He's dented Qantas's reputation, and is pedaling hard now to repair it.
But the restructuring of Qantas that Joyce has begun is unlikely to be fatally undermined by what happened on the weekend. The government understands what Joyce is trying to achieve and it supports it.
Senior Labor figures including the Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, the Assistant Treasurer, Bill Shorten, and the Transport Minister, Anthony Albanese, have criticised Qantas for not informing the government of the shutdown sooner.
But even as he said again yesterday that Qantas had not told the government that a full grounding was imminent, Albanese acknowledged that Qantas had been talking ''very clearly and publicly'' that if industrial action continued there would be groundings.
The ''logical extension'' was that ''it would reach a point whereby the airline would make a decision because of the proportion of the fleet that was grounded, that it was time to ground the entire fleet,'' he said.
Translation: Alan Joyce didn't tell government ministers several weeks ago to set their phone alarms to remind them at 5pm on Saturday, October 29, that Qantas would be announcing a decision to lock out its pilots, engineers and ground crew and, as a consequence, immediately grounding its fleet.
The attacks on Qantas over who got told what when about the group's decision to ground its aircraft on Saturday is a confection.
To borrrow from Sherlock Holmes, the dog hasn't barked - there is no evidence that the Qantas chief executive, Alan Joyce, has terminally damaged his group's relations with the government.
He's dented Qantas's reputation, and is pedaling hard now to repair it.
But the restructuring of Qantas that Joyce has begun is unlikely to be fatally undermined by what happened on the weekend. The government understands what Joyce is trying to achieve and it supports it.
Senior Labor figures including the Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, the Assistant Treasurer, Bill Shorten, and the Transport Minister, Anthony Albanese, have criticised Qantas for not informing the government of the shutdown sooner.
But even as he said again yesterday that Qantas had not told the government that a full grounding was imminent, Albanese acknowledged that Qantas had been talking ''very clearly and publicly'' that if industrial action continued there would be groundings.
The ''logical extension'' was that ''it would reach a point whereby the airline would make a decision because of the proportion of the fleet that was grounded, that it was time to ground the entire fleet,'' he said.
Translation: Alan Joyce didn't tell government ministers several weeks ago to set their phone alarms to remind them at 5pm on Saturday, October 29, that Qantas would be announcing a decision to lock out its pilots, engineers and ground crew and, as a consequence, immediately grounding its fleet.
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Those that hold hope that the attacks on Qantas by Gillard / Albanese and Shorten in parliament question time over the last three days mark a sea change in government sentiment towards this dispute should read the above SMH article carefully.
Remember that Joyce and the board are currently being advised by Bain & Co and Freehills Lawyers - they are experts engineering industrial relations disputes so that the outcome always falls in the employers favour.
There is no question that the reaction of the government to the grounding would have been factored into the plan. They are on the glide path perfectly in my view
On other matters, there have been a number of very disturbing incidents within Qantas flight operations over the last few days. By this I mean the behaviour of certain member of flight ops management towards line pilots.
For those QF pilots in the process of seeking new jobs, it might be a good idea to disguise the identity of your new employer if possible. I believe that it is well within the realm of possibility that we may see a repeat of the "political dissidents" episode that dogged some of the guys in Europe post 1989.
The company has gone to extraordinary lengths to ensure that mainline pilots do not have other employment opportunities elsewhere in the Qantas group.
Despite being significantly short of crew, only a handful of QF guys have been able to transfer to JQD, JQI, JQA and JQP. Whilst I have heard the arguments about 'pollution' before, the reality is that the endgame is now well in process, and Qantas (if it had any brains) would be facilitating the process for guys and girls to leave mainline without paying redundancies as much as possible.
The reality is opposite. The only conclusion I can come to is that Clifford and Joyce not only want to run Qantas pilots out of the company, but they want to inflict maximum personal and financial damage on each individual pilot in the process.
We all need to be aware of this and proceed accordingly.
Remember that Joyce and the board are currently being advised by Bain & Co and Freehills Lawyers - they are experts engineering industrial relations disputes so that the outcome always falls in the employers favour.
There is no question that the reaction of the government to the grounding would have been factored into the plan. They are on the glide path perfectly in my view
On other matters, there have been a number of very disturbing incidents within Qantas flight operations over the last few days. By this I mean the behaviour of certain member of flight ops management towards line pilots.
For those QF pilots in the process of seeking new jobs, it might be a good idea to disguise the identity of your new employer if possible. I believe that it is well within the realm of possibility that we may see a repeat of the "political dissidents" episode that dogged some of the guys in Europe post 1989.
The company has gone to extraordinary lengths to ensure that mainline pilots do not have other employment opportunities elsewhere in the Qantas group.
Despite being significantly short of crew, only a handful of QF guys have been able to transfer to JQD, JQI, JQA and JQP. Whilst I have heard the arguments about 'pollution' before, the reality is that the endgame is now well in process, and Qantas (if it had any brains) would be facilitating the process for guys and girls to leave mainline without paying redundancies as much as possible.
The reality is opposite. The only conclusion I can come to is that Clifford and Joyce not only want to run Qantas pilots out of the company, but they want to inflict maximum personal and financial damage on each individual pilot in the process.
We all need to be aware of this and proceed accordingly.
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The way I see it is, in this relentless push to Asia by Joyce, and going into a already over saturated market, with the bones of already failed companies both in Aviation and other types of business littering the place, the chance of success for QF is not very high especially in Japan. So what then happens to the Mother Company? What last weekend showed us in no uncertain terms was despite the mutterings of Qantas being finished, it is anything but. It showed how much Australians rely on their National Carrier, it also showed how much Australian business and tourism relies on their National Carrier, and the outrage of it being taken away was palpable. Yet Joyce is prepared to risk all this, and sail the company into uncharted waters, and risk the welfare of all its employees and their families. If Qantas fails in Asia, as it surely will, what will be left to salvage? Can it continue to fly in Australia if there is anything left, or will JQ take up the slack, and do what we all thought it would do in the future anyway. So many questions, so few answers, but I fear for the company and its people, and I fear for the future under this bloke and Clifford. What a sad day for this country it will be when the future generation cannot further their dreams of being a Qantas pilot or Engineer, then for no other reason than the positions have been filled from those from Asia.
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The only conclusion I can come to is that Clifford and Joyce not only want to run Qantas pilots out of the company, but they want to inflict maximum personal and financial damage on each individual pilot in the process.
As far as getting jobs with other airlines goes, I don't think it's a problem and certainly there is a considerable exodus from mainline Qantas at the moment, the likes of which I never thought I'd see. Qantas will of course distort those figures as most of them are using leave-without-pay provisions, though I suspect the majority will probably not come back. Therefore Qantas can truthfully (though misleadingly) say there have been very few resignations.
There aren't many airline CEOs who'll lose sleep over taking Joyce's qualified and experienced employees. Least of all Borghetti, as he moves to fill the void Joyce is gifting him while he goes off on his majority asian-owned and operated adventures (misadventures?) using Qantas capital and gradually feeds the remnants of his premium carrier to his bouncing, low-cost silver & orange baby boy.
Geoffrey Thomas and certain other creatures inhabiting this forum might say that it's "necessary for the survival of Qantas" but this line of thinking is very reminiscent of the famous "it was necessary to destroy the town to save it" quote regarding the town of Ben Tre during the Vietnam War.
I don't know that they want to intentionally inflict personal damage. I just think they want Qantas mainline out of their life, and don't particularly care how it happens.
1) They are incompetent and cannot run a premium airline themselves so logically it is impossible for ANYONE to do it. **
which leads to:
2) The genuinely believe that Qantas has to die and these nasty unions are ruining all hope of success.
Unfortunately there is no one in management with any operational experience in airlines (only management experience) and as all are 'yes-men' there are no dissenting opinions - especially since JB left. Therefore they KNOW they are correct. They just do not understand airlines in any way so they have no clue about the damage they have done. Being fair to them, having never worked (operationally) in one, how could they possibly understand what idiots they are managing one? An arts or management degree at 24yo in this line of work is a hardly going to be of any assistance, yet these are the incompetent yes men and women that management listen to.
The one fly in the ointment for them must be that the one person with any clout who realised what a bunch of utter morons these guys are and had the gumption to disagree with them, actually left and then busily set about creating an 'impossible to make money' premium carrier from a half baked LCC Virgin. Obviously a fluke, he is still wrong and Qantas management is correct. There will be a powerpoint presentation to support the view somewhere..
** Another way to look at it is this (if you are wise in the ways of management and didn't understand previous):
If Qantas weighs the same as a duck, it is a witch and therefore we must burn it.
Very simple really.
