Virgin Australia Cadetship 2012 & 2013
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 38
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From: australia
Aimpoint.
Simple really. One is a pay to fly program based on ability to pay and the other one is a cadetship where selection will be merit based and no upfront cash requirement.
One will be a proper program similar to the old Qantas scheme and the other a rip off, supply of cheap labour, where the biggest chequebook wins.
But I'm only guessing and do not profess to be talking for Kelpie.
SS
Simple really. One is a pay to fly program based on ability to pay and the other one is a cadetship where selection will be merit based and no upfront cash requirement.
One will be a proper program similar to the old Qantas scheme and the other a rip off, supply of cheap labour, where the biggest chequebook wins.
But I'm only guessing and do not profess to be talking for Kelpie.
SS
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,024
Likes: 112
From: BBN
Let's hope they don't find a training provider and the whole thing falls over, never thought Virgin would sink to the level of One*. Very disappointing Virgin!
And yes Kelpie why are you for the Virgin cadetship?
And yes Kelpie why are you for the Virgin cadetship?
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,017
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From: deepest darkest recess of your mind
How about you await the details before you criticise? As sniffer has pointed out, not all cadetships are the same. The details will decide whether there will be support from the rest of us in the industry. Not all cadetships are crap.
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 38
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From: australia
My comments above aside. I see little need for a cadet scheme in Australia, due the current supply of qualified hopefuls already out there.
If it is to ensure a supply in any upcoming shortage, after the current supply dwindles, then they are to be encouraged.
SS
If it is to ensure a supply in any upcoming shortage, after the current supply dwindles, then they are to be encouraged.
SS
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,381
Likes: 532
From: Somewhere
Let's hope they don't find a training provider and the whole thing falls over, never thought Virgin would sink to the level of One*. Very disappointing Virgin!
Hopefully the Virgin one will provide a chance of career progression rather than being left out in the cold.
Nunc est bibendum
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,596
Likes: 37
From: Sydney, Australia
QF have been running a cadetship for over ten years so it's hardly a Jetstar thing.
Many of the graduates of those early '90s courses are now 767 and 737 Captains.
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 161
Likes: 6
From: Straya
I never bashed the cadet scheme, just made an observation. Surely many of the issues brought up in the last 18 months about the limitations of cadetships will still apply to Virgin. And who is not to say this isn't a way to reduce costs either? We don't know all of the details yet. The program could be a very good thing, I'm just looking at it with eyes very wide open and without the borghetti tinted glasses.
Nunc est bibendum
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,596
Likes: 37
From: Sydney, Australia
Surely many of the issues brought up in the last 18 months about the limitations of cadetships will still apply to Virgin.
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 767
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From: Australia
Just for the record I am not entirely "anti-cadet ship". It is very difficult to say they don't work when they have been adopted by airlines across Europe and Asia for many years albeit funded fully by the airline. That being said I have serious reservations whether a pilot with a new CPL and MECIR has the ability to properly support a captain on an aircraft such as the A320 or 737.
My concerns are primarily that cadet ships should not be the only recruitment stream and that they should supplement direct entry rather than replace it. Cadetships should, if used only be awarded to the cream of the applicants as was the QF cadetship once upon a time and their numbers should be highly restricted and their induction highly supervised (eg second officer for 2-3 years prior to a window seat below 10,000)
The other bone I have is the way that airlines, particularly Jetstar have bastardised the model, not only to an applicant pays system placing undue financial pressure on cadets but also by taking on cadets in such large numbers.
The announcement on which flight training provider will be awarded the contract is imminent and i expect that within a week or so the launch of the cadetship will occur and more details of the cadet ship will be released.
This is some of the information I have some of which is already out there:
Initial stages of the selection process are expected to be carried out by the chosen flight training provider with later stages having more VA input.
The selected cadets will not be expected to provide any funding upfront but may be asked to enter into a bonding arrangement.
The cadetship is 100%. Ab-initio with no advanced entry for those with CPL etc. Course duration 18 months. Course includes cpl,MECIR and multi crew course including ATPLs.
Initial course 12 cadets to commence 3rd quarter 2012.
More to Follow
The Kelpie
My concerns are primarily that cadet ships should not be the only recruitment stream and that they should supplement direct entry rather than replace it. Cadetships should, if used only be awarded to the cream of the applicants as was the QF cadetship once upon a time and their numbers should be highly restricted and their induction highly supervised (eg second officer for 2-3 years prior to a window seat below 10,000)
The other bone I have is the way that airlines, particularly Jetstar have bastardised the model, not only to an applicant pays system placing undue financial pressure on cadets but also by taking on cadets in such large numbers.
The announcement on which flight training provider will be awarded the contract is imminent and i expect that within a week or so the launch of the cadetship will occur and more details of the cadet ship will be released.
This is some of the information I have some of which is already out there:
Initial stages of the selection process are expected to be carried out by the chosen flight training provider with later stages having more VA input.
The selected cadets will not be expected to provide any funding upfront but may be asked to enter into a bonding arrangement.
The cadetship is 100%. Ab-initio with no advanced entry for those with CPL etc. Course duration 18 months. Course includes cpl,MECIR and multi crew course including ATPLs.
Initial course 12 cadets to commence 3rd quarter 2012.
More to Follow
The Kelpie
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: Brisbane
Kelpie, do you know any further information regarding the flight training schools? It was stated that VA had narrowed it down to 3, do you know which 3 schools are/were in the running? Or do you know the final selection?
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 81
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From: Melbourne, Australia
Wow, sounds like the entirety of the year 12 graduate population is going to apply, especially if no upfront cost is involved. It should will be good because if they only pick 12, there is a good chance that they won't be duds.
Joined: Jun 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,688
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From: Australia
That being said I have serious reservations whether a pilot with a new CPL and MECIR has the ability to properly support a captain on an aircraft such as the A320 or 737.
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,291
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From: On the equator
That being said I have serious reservations whether a pilot with a new CPL and MECIR has the ability to properly support a captain on an aircraft such as the A320 or 737.
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 125
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From: Sector 7G
If they've completed line training and successfully checked to line, isn't that saying they've reached the required standard to competently operate as a first-officer?
However does that mean they can adequately support a Captain going in to a non-towered aerodrome at night for a non-precision approach with traffic and weather on the minima the next week?
You are correct, everyone does need to start somewhere, but does it really have to be in the RHS of a high capacity RPT aircraft? I suspect that accountants simply point to Europe and the apparent success of cadetships direct to RHS HC-RPT. There is a huge difference - a low vis departure to a CAT III autoland is a procedural flight from the FO as support pilots point of view. It is a series of yes/no decisions and calls that can be learned by rote. It is an entirely different proposition to the complex scenario above. That requires active management of the external world beyond the aircraft by the support pilot & requires judgment & experience in order to provide adequate support for the Captain. Not only is the FO there to provide support - he is also the vital cross check on the Captain. Captains make mistakes too.
Operators that have direct entry cadets that have SO's/ Cruise FO's provide a much better environment. They get to see how to operate multi-crew, the normal flow of the flight and simulator time to practice and make mistakes - mistakes are an integral part of the learning process. At least in this country we have a diverse range of operations to provide an excellent learning environment before stepping up to HC-RPT.
So yes, they may have passed their check ride to the minimum required standard - but is this the way we really want to operate? How are Jetstar going with their cadet program? Are the cadets flying with training Captains for a considerable period of time beyond what could reasonably be expected to make the line standard? If so, there is a reason for that, we have a different operating environment to Europe.
