Paul Holmes and Erebus
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Was always Scared:
To voice my opinion when younger! been sitting on this for 30 odd years too!
Now I am "Growing Old Disgracefully" and dont care what any one else thinks!
Chr's
H/Snort.
Now I am "Growing Old Disgracefully" and dont care what any one else thinks!
Chr's
H/Snort.
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Another myth that will not die.
The quote in Chippindale’s report is not “bit thick here Bert”, but is actually “bit thick here eh Bert”. This makes it much more likely to have been “this is Cape Bird”
However, the CVR specialist group could not conclusively determine what the words were and therefore deemed the passage unintelligible in their transcript.
See The CVR transcript controversy - Gary Parata’s article under the Investigation tab of the link above (or click here >>Gary Parata's Article Page 1
Chippindale, though, changed the transcript in his report from unintelligible to “bit thick here eh Bert” as well as making numerous other changes to make the CVR transcript fit his pre-conceived theory of pilot error and the crew being unsure of their position.
Gary Parata writes:
Instead of all the ad hominem attacks being made on Paul Holmes, I would like to see what new information he has about Chippindale, and then debate the facts.
So far, Chippindale has not been too impressive.
For him to state in his report
I find that utterly incredible
No evidence to suggest that they had been misled by this error ????
They flew into a mountain they thought was 25 miles away fercrissake !!!
This does not help his credibility either
There are still many questions still unanswered.
If you had a suspicious mind you might wonder why the only documents recovered at the crash scene and shown at the enquiry were ones that supported the company argument.
Why were there no pages left in Captain Collins’ otherwise undamaged ring-binder notebook?
What happened to the rest of the documents carried by Captain Collins on that flight?
Why did the company recover FO Cassin’s briefing notes, then they were never seen again?
Who was behind the burglaries?
Does “an organized litany of lies” apply here?
Believe in conspiracies and a cover-up? Who, me?
The quote in Chippindale’s report is not “bit thick here Bert”, but is actually “bit thick here eh Bert”. This makes it much more likely to have been “this is Cape Bird”
However, the CVR specialist group could not conclusively determine what the words were and therefore deemed the passage unintelligible in their transcript.
See The CVR transcript controversy - Gary Parata’s article under the Investigation tab of the link above (or click here >>Gary Parata's Article Page 1
Chippindale, though, changed the transcript in his report from unintelligible to “bit thick here eh Bert” as well as making numerous other changes to make the CVR transcript fit his pre-conceived theory of pilot error and the crew being unsure of their position.
Gary Parata writes:
The transcript actually published in the formal accident report was significantly different to the version produced by the CVR Group. Chippindale made 55 changes to the transcript without consultation with the CVR Group and in direct contravention of accepted protocols. Chippindale’s actions were inexplicable - ‘at best, an extraordinarily non-standard performance; at worst, a highly improper and prejudicial act.’
So far, Chippindale has not been too impressive.
For him to state in his report
Quote: 2.5 The flight plan was printed for each flight from a computer stored record which, until the night before the flight, had the longitude for the McMurdo destination point incorrectly entered ………….
……… In the case of this crew no evidence was found to suggest that they had been misled by this error in the flight plan shown to them at the briefing.
……… In the case of this crew no evidence was found to suggest that they had been misled by this error in the flight plan shown to them at the briefing.
No evidence to suggest that they had been misled by this error ????
They flew into a mountain they thought was 25 miles away fercrissake !!!
This does not help his credibility either
Obituary: Vale Ron Chippindale: Erebus investigator was one of the many victims of TE 901, the disaster that will not go away
In November 1989, 10 years after the crash of Air New Zealand flight TE 901, chief air accidents investigator Ron Chippindale admitted to me that he knew Air New Zealand had lied about sightseeing flights to Antarctica not being allowed lower than 16,000 feet. But he’d gone along with that fiction, during his own investigation of that terrible disaster, and all through the long royal commission that followed, at the end of which Justice Peter Mahon accused the airline of concocting “palpably false evidence” and “an orchestrated litany of lies.”
Because of that ringing phrase, Justice Mahon became another victim of Mt Erebus, driven from the Bench for it by his fellow judges and a furious prime minister, Rob Muldoon. But Ron Chippindale was an Erebus victim too, never forgiven by many pilots for obstinately supporting the airline’s lie that TE 901 had no right to be flying below 16,000 feet when he knew otherwise.
But even his 1989 admission did not stop Chippindale continuing to accuse the pilots of causing the crash by bad airmanship. Despite conclusive evidence to the contrary, he still held that they were flying at a low altitude knowingly uncertain where they were in the hostile, mountainous Antarctic environment. And he bizarrely told me that they could have saved the DC10 and its 237 passengers and 20 crew by sliding it across the icy slopes it hit to a standstill, rather than letting it smash to smithereens after the ground proximity warning system shrieked its awful “Whoop whoop! Pull up!” That would have been a feat of airmanship unparalleled in aviation history.
(link now dead)
In November 1989, 10 years after the crash of Air New Zealand flight TE 901, chief air accidents investigator Ron Chippindale admitted to me that he knew Air New Zealand had lied about sightseeing flights to Antarctica not being allowed lower than 16,000 feet. But he’d gone along with that fiction, during his own investigation of that terrible disaster, and all through the long royal commission that followed, at the end of which Justice Peter Mahon accused the airline of concocting “palpably false evidence” and “an orchestrated litany of lies.”
Because of that ringing phrase, Justice Mahon became another victim of Mt Erebus, driven from the Bench for it by his fellow judges and a furious prime minister, Rob Muldoon. But Ron Chippindale was an Erebus victim too, never forgiven by many pilots for obstinately supporting the airline’s lie that TE 901 had no right to be flying below 16,000 feet when he knew otherwise.
But even his 1989 admission did not stop Chippindale continuing to accuse the pilots of causing the crash by bad airmanship. Despite conclusive evidence to the contrary, he still held that they were flying at a low altitude knowingly uncertain where they were in the hostile, mountainous Antarctic environment. And he bizarrely told me that they could have saved the DC10 and its 237 passengers and 20 crew by sliding it across the icy slopes it hit to a standstill, rather than letting it smash to smithereens after the ground proximity warning system shrieked its awful “Whoop whoop! Pull up!” That would have been a feat of airmanship unparalleled in aviation history.
(link now dead)
If you had a suspicious mind you might wonder why the only documents recovered at the crash scene and shown at the enquiry were ones that supported the company argument.
Why were there no pages left in Captain Collins’ otherwise undamaged ring-binder notebook?
What happened to the rest of the documents carried by Captain Collins on that flight?
Why did the company recover FO Cassin’s briefing notes, then they were never seen again?
Who was behind the burglaries?
Does “an organized litany of lies” apply here?
Believe in conspiracies and a cover-up? Who, me?
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Ohhhhh Dingo Mate!
I did not want to be the first! to go here, I felt it would contaminate the "discussion":
But! thank you for bringing it up:
As someone else said and quite rightly, alot of stuff went down:
Yes houses broken into,
Files disappearing.
A hanging by suicide from an individual in the flight planning office:
Maps disappeared.
Executive pilots whereabouts on such & such a date and Time as matches the approximate times of said break ins, un accounted for!. ( and these Bstards are still alive) and went out of their way to ^&%( over Gordon & Peter:
Note books of Collins and Cassins seen at the crash site, & documented, but never recovered.
Just to name a few from memory:
To show the importance of aviation understanding this event:
When with Zimex we had to attend a CRM & HF's course by a Twin Air Tutor in Bern:
Guess what he used as an example?
He proceeded to lecture the class on the fact that the pilots deliberately moved waypoints in the INS around a mountain to circumnavigate it:
At which point I stood up! and kindly, ever so gently! explained: it went down Like a lead balloon, but enlighten him and the class of my peers I willingly did:
To which he replied, to me and the class: that my event was totally different to what he had studied at university!#)&%, me with a ripe 25 yr old size 6 athletic virg,N:
Maybe it is time to put ghosts to rest, maybe it takes a creep like Paul Holmes to sort it out? truly I don't know:
But yes I would welcome debate in the area,s you mentioned.
But! thank you for bringing it up:
As someone else said and quite rightly, alot of stuff went down:
Yes houses broken into,
Files disappearing.
A hanging by suicide from an individual in the flight planning office:
Maps disappeared.
Executive pilots whereabouts on such & such a date and Time as matches the approximate times of said break ins, un accounted for!. ( and these Bstards are still alive) and went out of their way to ^&%( over Gordon & Peter:
Note books of Collins and Cassins seen at the crash site, & documented, but never recovered.
Just to name a few from memory:
To show the importance of aviation understanding this event:
When with Zimex we had to attend a CRM & HF's course by a Twin Air Tutor in Bern:
Guess what he used as an example?
He proceeded to lecture the class on the fact that the pilots deliberately moved waypoints in the INS around a mountain to circumnavigate it:
At which point I stood up! and kindly, ever so gently! explained: it went down Like a lead balloon, but enlighten him and the class of my peers I willingly did:
To which he replied, to me and the class: that my event was totally different to what he had studied at university!#)&%, me with a ripe 25 yr old size 6 athletic virg,N:
Maybe it is time to put ghosts to rest, maybe it takes a creep like Paul Holmes to sort it out? truly I don't know:
But yes I would welcome debate in the area,s you mentioned.
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Desert Dingo, you nailed it in one post mate, great work
As for Muldoon, he was just another sickening example of government bureacracy and he was a national disgrace. NZ was lucky not to enter economic ruin under the leadershp of 'Piggy', and as for the entire Erebus saga well he should also be remembered as one of life's egomaniacal turds that should be forever forgotten.
As for Muldoon, he was just another sickening example of government bureacracy and he was a national disgrace. NZ was lucky not to enter economic ruin under the leadershp of 'Piggy', and as for the entire Erebus saga well he should also be remembered as one of life's egomaniacal turds that should be forever forgotten.
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gobbledocks QUOTE:
QUOTE: As for Muldoon, he was just another sickening example of government bureaucracy and he was a national disgrace. NZ was lucky not to enter economic ruin under the leadership of 'Piggy', and as for the entire Erebus saga well he should also be remembered as one of life's ego maniacal turds that should be forever forgotten. ( I corrected ego maniacal for you)
Have you ever read the book the rise & fall of a young Turk:
Or have you ever read the book, MY WAY:
Both by Robert Muldoon:
This is a guy that studied for his accountancy qualifications in the western deserts, in WW11, under attack and between battles, under his C/O of the period: and his Prime minister predecessor, the Rt Honorable Jack Marshall.
He was not all as you say, I know:
Right or wrong, if ever two adversaries where to be recognized for their "caring intent" to NZ, it was two non other than , David Lange, & Robert Muldoon, let some other than me judge them:
NOW, if you wish to get into a debate about the most corrupted NZ politician, bring it on? non other than ROGER F*(KING DOUGLAS:
Have you ever read the book the rise & fall of a young Turk:
Or have you ever read the book, MY WAY:
Both by Robert Muldoon:
This is a guy that studied for his accountancy qualifications in the western deserts, in WW11, under attack and between battles, under his C/O of the period: and his Prime minister predecessor, the Rt Honorable Jack Marshall.
He was not all as you say, I know:
Right or wrong, if ever two adversaries where to be recognized for their "caring intent" to NZ, it was two non other than , David Lange, & Robert Muldoon, let some other than me judge them:
NOW, if you wish to get into a debate about the most corrupted NZ politician, bring it on? non other than ROGER F*(KING DOUGLAS:
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NOW, if you wish to get into a debate about the most corrupted NZ politician, bring it on? non other than ROGER F*(KING DOUGLAS:
Mr Tony Fitzgerald QC used the following terms to describe a particular Politician, however these words aptly describe today and yesteryear's leaders.He quotes;
“Access can now be purchased, patronage is dispensed, mates and supporters are appointed and retired politicians exploit their connections to obtain 'success fees' for deals between business and government".
“Neither side of politics is interested in these issues except for short-term political advantage as each enjoys or plots impatiently for its turn at the privileges and opportunities which accompany power."
“Politicians obey political instincts to obfuscate, spin, evade, deny, blame someone else, create a distraction to deflect attention from the real issue''.
Politicians = Bowel movements. (my quote).
I corrected ego maniacal for you
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Perhaps that sort of 'eye for detail and accuracy' would have been handy prior to 28 November 1979?
The last 3.5 seconds of the recordings showed the rudder moved to 3.5 degrees left then to full l left rudder (13 degrees) and the elevators moved to full nose up. There was no aileron/spoiler movement at this time, although just prior to this there was slight wing rocking, first right then left.
That is the data; now for the interpretation.
Chippindale had his pre-conceived idea that it was all pilot error, so this confirmed it. They were blatting along at low level in cloud or poor visibility, unsure of their position. They suddenly saw the mountain ahead and in a moment of panic tried to make a climbing left turn to avoid the ground.
See. Simple. Perfectly clear from the data. Who could possibly disagree with that?
Justice Mahon did.
He looked at some very significant pieces of information
- The “Joe Cool” attitude of the pilots with absolutely no sudden exclamations or expression of alarm.
- He had expert opinion that such violent rudder travel could not have been caused by pilot input.
- He noticed a cautionary note that auto-pilot data had some doubtful information because of a break in the tape.
The break in the tape had caused difficulty synchronizing the FDR and CVR events.. The transcriber, acting in perfectly good faith, believing that there must have been at this point a fault in the electronic readout sequence moved the synchronisation to match the go-around power call and what was obviously (to him) a panic evasive maneuver.
Put the FDR/CVR synchronisation back to its original position and you now have:
The wing rocking was caused by HDG SEL being pulled and the aircraft starting to turn right to the previously selected heading. Then when HDG SEL was turned to straight ahead the aircraft rolled to the left to correct.
Impact then occurred in a left wing down attitude so the #1 engine hit first and caused the aircraft to slew violently to the left .
There was also a violent movement of up elevator at the same time as a pitch attitude change from 5 to 11 degrees nose up as the fuselage matches the slope of the terrain at the impact point.
Now we have the control surface deflections being caused by their inertia during rapid heading and attitude changes at impact.
This is the exact reverse of what Chippindale assumed.
A brilliant analysis by Mahon. The crew never saw what they hit.
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The crew never saw what they hit.
I have no trouble with Vette's findings that the atmospheric conditions made the mountain difficult to see, but someone was flying a perfectly servicable aircraft into the side of a mountain and it wasn't Morrie Davis or Ron Chippendale or Robert Muldoon.
The crew put the aircraft into a place they couldn't recover it from doing some sort of wierd INS Nav/VMC Below manoeuvre and all I hear on this thread is they would have been fine to carry on if the co-ordinates hadn't been changed.
Bleating on about AirNZ's behaviour subsequent to doesn't solve or add cause to the chain of events that led up to the accident. Mahon's idea in his unbalanced conclusion that you could throw the SOP's out the window showed he was only ever a lawyer, not a pilot.
Are we going to dredge up a dozen more NZ accidents and absolve the crew of their portion blame because the years have passed. I take it that everyone on here who disagree's with me would have done the same as that crew on the day and also put the plane into the side of the mountain?
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MT EREBUS COVER UP
There has bee a million words written about the accident of ZK NZP.
I will not get into who was or was not at fault.
One issue that has never been raised is the NZALPA's attitude was that one of our pilots could not have made such a serious mistake.
Hence the huge move to move the blame to the administration of Air New Zealand.
Morry Davis was at fault, Flight planning department was at fault.
Justice Mahone did some live tests down on the ice but he was led by ALPA members, to not blame the pilot.
Chippindale was correct(in my opinion) it was 'Pilot error" nothing else.
Jim Collins was an adept pilot but on this fateful day he made an error in judgement.
It is also very strange that Chippindale was killed by a waywould motorist some time after the accident not for from his home.
Should all the preaching of terminal and absolute inexactudes get swept away we might get a bit closer to why Jim Collins waded into a navigational trap
BBG
I will not get into who was or was not at fault.
One issue that has never been raised is the NZALPA's attitude was that one of our pilots could not have made such a serious mistake.
Hence the huge move to move the blame to the administration of Air New Zealand.
Morry Davis was at fault, Flight planning department was at fault.
Justice Mahone did some live tests down on the ice but he was led by ALPA members, to not blame the pilot.
Chippindale was correct(in my opinion) it was 'Pilot error" nothing else.
Jim Collins was an adept pilot but on this fateful day he made an error in judgement.
It is also very strange that Chippindale was killed by a waywould motorist some time after the accident not for from his home.
Should all the preaching of terminal and absolute inexactudes get swept away we might get a bit closer to why Jim Collins waded into a navigational trap
BBG
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HUMAN FACTORS vs CRM:
stillalbatross: SO tell me or us, please about an incident in your career where you have failed in HF's:
Now the crew, and I say CREW, no one until about the last 20 odd seconds from what I remember of the transcripts ever voiced any concern's, and they were a functioning, harmonized professional crew:
I fail to see your logic, or any of your argument: You obviously no nothing of "WHITE OUT" or OPTICAL ILLUSIONS, white out, mirages, the northern lights, the southern lights, spatial disorientation, inner ear & balance and the list goes on:
If you really think as you do, and you are not "trying to wind us up" I would go as far as to say, I Pity your Professionalism:
There but by the grace of God go I:
My question to you and in part to others that think as you, is this!
Next time , or if ever an event happens in your flying career that you cant understand when you need to, how will you react? do you think you can never get into such an event in your career, or is there no room for such in your flying career? is it an impossibility that something as happened to TE-901 crews, could ever happen to you? can you tell me or us that nothing could ever happen to you, that you would not recognize and instantly understand? think wisely!
Now the crew, and I say CREW, no one until about the last 20 odd seconds from what I remember of the transcripts ever voiced any concern's, and they were a functioning, harmonized professional crew:
I fail to see your logic, or any of your argument: You obviously no nothing of "WHITE OUT" or OPTICAL ILLUSIONS, white out, mirages, the northern lights, the southern lights, spatial disorientation, inner ear & balance and the list goes on:
If you really think as you do, and you are not "trying to wind us up" I would go as far as to say, I Pity your Professionalism:
There but by the grace of God go I:
My question to you and in part to others that think as you, is this!
Next time , or if ever an event happens in your flying career that you cant understand when you need to, how will you react? do you think you can never get into such an event in your career, or is there no room for such in your flying career? is it an impossibility that something as happened to TE-901 crews, could ever happen to you? can you tell me or us that nothing could ever happen to you, that you would not recognize and instantly understand? think wisely!
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I have a sim instructor who drills us on LPC/OPCs to follow every SOP to the letter, saying things like "the lawyers will argue that if you knowingly break that SOP which other ones will you break". I've never flown with him but am told that on the line he is quite happy to 'vary' the SOPs as we all do from time to time. I'm sure there will be people who will say they never ever 'interpret' the ops manual but really is anything ever truely black and white?
I've heard that there was a company notac on board specifying an MSA of 16000' until south of Mt Erebus and then the minimum altitude allowed was 6000', however this had apparently been issued without the knowledge of the Director of Flight Operations (International), Doug Keesing. Although he had retired by the time of the accident he thought he had agreed with Civil Aviation that aircraft could descend to 2000' agl in VMC at the descretion of the Captain for sightseeing purposes, in February 1977. He then travelled a flight in November 1978 when the aircraft did descend to 2000' as it passed Mt Erebus, which he apparently felt perfectly comfortable about as he believed that it was what had been agreed with the authority.
I know there are people who want to take an absolute view that the crew were responsible for the crash, but they really were just the last slice in the pack of cheese and for their part in that error chain they (and their families) paid the ultimate price. The company and their insurers stood to save a lot of money by having a finding of "pilot error" due to payouts being capped in that case. Might that have affected their willingness to accept their share of the substantial failures that lead to this accident?
I've heard that there was a company notac on board specifying an MSA of 16000' until south of Mt Erebus and then the minimum altitude allowed was 6000', however this had apparently been issued without the knowledge of the Director of Flight Operations (International), Doug Keesing. Although he had retired by the time of the accident he thought he had agreed with Civil Aviation that aircraft could descend to 2000' agl in VMC at the descretion of the Captain for sightseeing purposes, in February 1977. He then travelled a flight in November 1978 when the aircraft did descend to 2000' as it passed Mt Erebus, which he apparently felt perfectly comfortable about as he believed that it was what had been agreed with the authority.
I know there are people who want to take an absolute view that the crew were responsible for the crash, but they really were just the last slice in the pack of cheese and for their part in that error chain they (and their families) paid the ultimate price. The company and their insurers stood to save a lot of money by having a finding of "pilot error" due to payouts being capped in that case. Might that have affected their willingness to accept their share of the substantial failures that lead to this accident?
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D. Dingo : "Then when the heading select knob was turned to straight ahead the aircraft rolled to the left to correct it."
P. Mahon, 'Verdict on Erebus', page 282: "The captain had then pulled out the Heading Select knob, thus disengaging the aircraft from its Nav track. The moment he disengaged the Nav track, the aircraft began to roll to the right in obedience to the heading which had previously controlled the Heading Select dial. But the captain had then turned the Heading Select dial to the left so as to command a left turn and the aircraft had immediately responded by correcting the right-hand roll and starting to roll to the left, and it had struck the mountainside with the aircraft probably rolling just to the left of the centreline."
P. Mahon, 'Verdict on Erebus', page 282: "The captain had then pulled out the Heading Select knob, thus disengaging the aircraft from its Nav track. The moment he disengaged the Nav track, the aircraft began to roll to the right in obedience to the heading which had previously controlled the Heading Select dial. But the captain had then turned the Heading Select dial to the left so as to command a left turn and the aircraft had immediately responded by correcting the right-hand roll and starting to roll to the left, and it had struck the mountainside with the aircraft probably rolling just to the left of the centreline."
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The Erebus Disaster was a sad play in three acts.
In Act 1.
We have the Flight Operations Dept. of ANZ scheduling a crew for a flight for which they had been insufficiently prepared, and on the closing scene changing the navigational data to the Area Nav System without informing the operating crew.
In Act 2.
We have the crew for what ever reason failing in their situation awareness, descending below the MSA and placing the aircraft in a dangerous situation, which resulted in the accident.
In Act 3.
We have the cover up by management and the now famous, “Orchestrated Litany of Lies”
The Finale.
Most of the players were either killed, are now well retired, or have passed on, and I am sure that most, if not all of the lessons have been learned.
It is a discussion, which at this point in time as no end, unless you choose to end it.
In Act 1.
We have the Flight Operations Dept. of ANZ scheduling a crew for a flight for which they had been insufficiently prepared, and on the closing scene changing the navigational data to the Area Nav System without informing the operating crew.
In Act 2.
We have the crew for what ever reason failing in their situation awareness, descending below the MSA and placing the aircraft in a dangerous situation, which resulted in the accident.
In Act 3.
We have the cover up by management and the now famous, “Orchestrated Litany of Lies”
The Finale.
Most of the players were either killed, are now well retired, or have passed on, and I am sure that most, if not all of the lessons have been learned.
It is a discussion, which at this point in time as no end, unless you choose to end it.
Last edited by Exaviator; 3rd Sep 2011 at 01:24.
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Act 1
Briefing: Captain told that nav track goes to McMurdo Station, but not told that such a track goes over Erebus.
Act 2
The Night Before: Captain plots track and notes: (1) A track to McMurdo Station goes over Erebus, but: (2) The track does not actually go to McMurdo Station.
Act 3
The Day of the Flight: Captain and First Officer enter the co-ordinates and Captain does not check the final waypoint, despite have received conflicting information about it.
Act 4
At 1500 feet, in the jaws of Lewis Bay: Flight Engineer says “I don’t like this”. Captain decides to climb out. First Officer says it’s clear to the right – wrong: Mount Bird to the right. Captain says “no negative” and turns left.
Comedy Sequel – Flight safety award named after Captain.
Briefing: Captain told that nav track goes to McMurdo Station, but not told that such a track goes over Erebus.
Act 2
The Night Before: Captain plots track and notes: (1) A track to McMurdo Station goes over Erebus, but: (2) The track does not actually go to McMurdo Station.
Act 3
The Day of the Flight: Captain and First Officer enter the co-ordinates and Captain does not check the final waypoint, despite have received conflicting information about it.
Act 4
At 1500 feet, in the jaws of Lewis Bay: Flight Engineer says “I don’t like this”. Captain decides to climb out. First Officer says it’s clear to the right – wrong: Mount Bird to the right. Captain says “no negative” and turns left.
Comedy Sequel – Flight safety award named after Captain.
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Thanks for the link.
From watching it I think it will result in a continuation of the debate because it seeks to remove "all blame" from one party. It doesn't matter what party that is (in this case it's the pilots) , the approach will never be successful because all parties made mistakes.Like most accidents.
The cover up isn't relevent as to the cause of the accident, it was subsequent. (obviously terrible, but not relevent to the cause of the accident).
The reality is that many errors were made and the crew made the last one, as is always the way.That doesn't make them bad people or bad pilots, everyone reading this makes mistakes. That is just life no matter how unsatisfying it is not to be able to blame soley ANZ or soley the pilots. The error chain had many many links and only the last one or two were contributed by the crew.With that being the case, should the NZ govt state that the crew were 'totally without blame'. Would that be accurate or a way of making people feel better? Maybe they should state that "there were many many mistakes made by several parties and the crew made the last one after being set up by shoddy company practices and a weak Ministry of Transport" ....... but that wouldn't satisfy many people.
From watching it I think it will result in a continuation of the debate because it seeks to remove "all blame" from one party. It doesn't matter what party that is (in this case it's the pilots) , the approach will never be successful because all parties made mistakes.Like most accidents.
The cover up isn't relevent as to the cause of the accident, it was subsequent. (obviously terrible, but not relevent to the cause of the accident).
The reality is that many errors were made and the crew made the last one, as is always the way.That doesn't make them bad people or bad pilots, everyone reading this makes mistakes. That is just life no matter how unsatisfying it is not to be able to blame soley ANZ or soley the pilots. The error chain had many many links and only the last one or two were contributed by the crew.With that being the case, should the NZ govt state that the crew were 'totally without blame'. Would that be accurate or a way of making people feel better? Maybe they should state that "there were many many mistakes made by several parties and the crew made the last one after being set up by shoddy company practices and a weak Ministry of Transport" ....... but that wouldn't satisfy many people.
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Hmmm!
QUOTE: Maybe they should state that "there were many many mistakes made by several parties and the crew made the last one after being set up by shoddy company practices and a weak Ministry of Transport" ....... but that wouldn't satisfy many people.
It would be a start framer, and you are correct! in that it: :wouldn't satisfy many people"
It is a sad fact that no matter which way this sad episode is debated, it will continue to remain "unpalatable", If I had a loved one involved, I too would continue to have a feeling of "perhaps" Resentment! and understandable it is.
I think the professional amongst us need to get what they can out of it as operators, "where was professor James Reason" back then?
Aviation is a hard taskmaster, and will continue to be so, today we have a debate on "Pilot manipulative" skills, born from what? Accidents and lost lives, this has always been the norm for the industry.
The first recorded passenger death, was piloted by one of the "Wright Bros" and the industry on both sides (American & French) have done what they think best philosophy approach to their products, and now its the (dare I say it) "European Automation" that has gone along way to remove the pilot from the issue as being the main cause, and the reverse is being recognized, that pilot still is the issue as the automation has reduced his "normal" pilot skills to one of having to think how to fly, having to think electronically, "what law" is this in?
The day will come when I have no doubt, aeroplanes will have no pilots and the "generation to come" will accept the odd loss as acceptable.
Back to Erebus! (respectfully) Long may it be a "shinning example" of Professor Reasons, what happens when?
It would be a start framer, and you are correct! in that it: :wouldn't satisfy many people"
It is a sad fact that no matter which way this sad episode is debated, it will continue to remain "unpalatable", If I had a loved one involved, I too would continue to have a feeling of "perhaps" Resentment! and understandable it is.
I think the professional amongst us need to get what they can out of it as operators, "where was professor James Reason" back then?
Aviation is a hard taskmaster, and will continue to be so, today we have a debate on "Pilot manipulative" skills, born from what? Accidents and lost lives, this has always been the norm for the industry.
The first recorded passenger death, was piloted by one of the "Wright Bros" and the industry on both sides (American & French) have done what they think best philosophy approach to their products, and now its the (dare I say it) "European Automation" that has gone along way to remove the pilot from the issue as being the main cause, and the reverse is being recognized, that pilot still is the issue as the automation has reduced his "normal" pilot skills to one of having to think how to fly, having to think electronically, "what law" is this in?
The day will come when I have no doubt, aeroplanes will have no pilots and the "generation to come" will accept the odd loss as acceptable.
Back to Erebus! (respectfully) Long may it be a "shinning example" of Professor Reasons, what happens when?
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Muldoon says in the clip - "just come out point blank and say 'I accuse so and so of a conspiracy"
Well here goes: there was a predetermined and comprehensive effort by the entire board of anz, the exec pilots/management of anz, the govt up to and including including the very highest echelons of the NZ govt, including Muldoon, to purposely mislead and deceive the investigation, including misappropriation of evidence and deliberate misrepresentation to the commission, including the NZ public (by extension)
They conspired to destroy evidence related to the investigation (documentary and actual retrieved evidence), obstruct the investigation and the Mahon commission, including deliberate and knowingly false testimony to the commission ect
The presumption on the part of the conspirators that the absence of evidence would in fact be the evidence of absence- a loose argumentum ad ignorantiam - or at least the presumption of that absence of evidence, was enough to get them off the hook. The fact the pilots documents - including the maps and pre-plotted route was never presented (although recovered in dubious circumstances), is one very good hint as to the motive.
The fact that there were maps being used with pre-plotted track to run distances ect is contained in the CVR as the crew read off the distance to run on the radial azimuth vectors. Ipso, no maps/atlas and briefing notes and then there's nothing to argue: it's all just supposition and testimony.
Chippendale, who was clearly naive in the the darker arts of investigation and the shady shadow boxing of Muldoon's Machiavellian mechanics of the political spectrum and should have been aware of the old gamblers adage 'if you don't know who the pasty is, then you're the pasty'.
Well here goes: there was a predetermined and comprehensive effort by the entire board of anz, the exec pilots/management of anz, the govt up to and including including the very highest echelons of the NZ govt, including Muldoon, to purposely mislead and deceive the investigation, including misappropriation of evidence and deliberate misrepresentation to the commission, including the NZ public (by extension)
They conspired to destroy evidence related to the investigation (documentary and actual retrieved evidence), obstruct the investigation and the Mahon commission, including deliberate and knowingly false testimony to the commission ect
The presumption on the part of the conspirators that the absence of evidence would in fact be the evidence of absence- a loose argumentum ad ignorantiam - or at least the presumption of that absence of evidence, was enough to get them off the hook. The fact the pilots documents - including the maps and pre-plotted route was never presented (although recovered in dubious circumstances), is one very good hint as to the motive.
The fact that there were maps being used with pre-plotted track to run distances ect is contained in the CVR as the crew read off the distance to run on the radial azimuth vectors. Ipso, no maps/atlas and briefing notes and then there's nothing to argue: it's all just supposition and testimony.
Chippendale, who was clearly naive in the the darker arts of investigation and the shady shadow boxing of Muldoon's Machiavellian mechanics of the political spectrum and should have been aware of the old gamblers adage 'if you don't know who the pasty is, then you're the pasty'.
Last edited by flatfootsam; 5th Sep 2011 at 16:12.
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flatfootsam, that's a slam dunk mate! Absolutley correct. Lies, deception, dishonesty,corruption, spin, denial and pure evil.
As has already been mentioned, the James Reason model would have been handy a few years prior to 79, but that doesn't mean the accident would not have happenned. My 'beef' is not with those who contributed to the accident or were part of the cause, but is with those who acted in the way so accurately described by flatfootsam. Had those actions not taken place then the ongoing debate/discussion/anger and frustration that many express today, 32 years after the accident, would not be so prevelant.
Historically we live and learn from mistakes, Erebus was no different. We investigate, we learn, we make changes, we adapt and we improve. Hence no other 'Erebus' has occurred on NZ soil in that sense. You can't turn back the clock, you move in one direction only - forward.
But the grey cloud that sits over this accident and the way in which the government and business acted by joining forces and undertaking such a despicable act without proper recourse or punitive action will not ever be forgotten. How can it?
As has already been mentioned, the James Reason model would have been handy a few years prior to 79, but that doesn't mean the accident would not have happenned. My 'beef' is not with those who contributed to the accident or were part of the cause, but is with those who acted in the way so accurately described by flatfootsam. Had those actions not taken place then the ongoing debate/discussion/anger and frustration that many express today, 32 years after the accident, would not be so prevelant.
Historically we live and learn from mistakes, Erebus was no different. We investigate, we learn, we make changes, we adapt and we improve. Hence no other 'Erebus' has occurred on NZ soil in that sense. You can't turn back the clock, you move in one direction only - forward.
But the grey cloud that sits over this accident and the way in which the government and business acted by joining forces and undertaking such a despicable act without proper recourse or punitive action will not ever be forgotten. How can it?
Had those actions not taken place then the ongoing debate/discussion/anger and frustration that many express today, 32 years after the accident, would not be so prevelant.
But the grey cloud that sits over this accident and the way in which the government and business acted by joining forces and undertaking such a despicable act without proper recourse or punitive action will not ever be forgotten.
Where it starts to get ugly is when people try to analyse just the accident, just the events leading up to the accident, and others get upset because of the way certain parties behaved after the event and therefore won't accept that the fault doesn't lie squarely in one camp.
The fault/responsibility/blame....whatever you want to call it, is distributed unevenly over all the parties involved, just like most other accidents.
So to ask for complete absolution of blame for the crew is going too far in my mind. Maybe ask for recognition that actions by the airline led to a difficult and confusing situation for the crew, and that the subsequent behaviour of execs and politicians was gutless/corrupt etc.
Complete absolution is P Holmes not quite understanding what it means to be the PinC of an airliner.