Jetstar to start recruiting
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after all dirt that keeps surfacing with this mob...i cannot believe there are people of this forum that keep justifying and defending these bastards.....WTF are you people drinking!!!..is the water in the crew room spiked ? puts a new spin on the old saying..."drinking the cool aid" We have become an international embarrassment....I cannot even at times look other crew in the eye...(especially QF guys)......for those who believe the company is in it for them.....take this one to bed tonight......
"Company Analysis team.....- i.e- Boston consulting " - 1 hull loss every 5 years acceptable with little or no brand name damage......
Disgraceful
"Company Analysis team.....- i.e- Boston consulting " - 1 hull loss every 5 years acceptable with little or no brand name damage......
Disgraceful
Last edited by xjt; 7th May 2011 at 04:44.
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Cadets are the elite from aptitude testing.
Aptitude testing is not the be-all end-all. Cadets who may shine in the aptitude testing will learn quickly, but when the job becomes more routine they tend to get bored and make basic errors.
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Lets just remember this argument is not about cadets, Its about these scum bag management types introducing a new B scale contract for all new direct entry FO positions, positions that will be filled with experienced GA type, not 200 hr cadets.
God help us all when this current EBA expires.
Jetstar management, you are a
embarrassment!
The pilot group, AIPA and AFAP need to grow some balls and take these down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
God help us all when this current EBA expires.
Jetstar management, you are a
embarrassment!The pilot group, AIPA and AFAP need to grow some balls and take these
down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I don't work for J*, however:
If I was in the left seat & didn't have complete confidence in the low hour pilot flying the sector. Due to crosswind, weather, wet or narrow runway, reverser inop. I'd fly the sector.
It's all about safety!!
Unfortunately the individuals would only get to log co-pilot time for that sector.
If there was a extended period of poor weather or challenging conditions, landing recency may become an issue. But that's why the company has simulators at their disposal.
MC
If I was in the left seat & didn't have complete confidence in the low hour pilot flying the sector. Due to crosswind, weather, wet or narrow runway, reverser inop. I'd fly the sector.
It's all about safety!!
Unfortunately the individuals would only get to log co-pilot time for that sector.
If there was a extended period of poor weather or challenging conditions, landing recency may become an issue. But that's why the company has simulators at their disposal.
MC
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I'd be curious to hear from all the " A cadet with the right training blah blah blah " mob, how much flying they have done with low hour pilots as PIC on a jet ?
Whats that I hear ? crickets ?
Stop quoting the BS from the flying schools that clearly have a lot to gain from this. ( and I would hazard a guess none of the flying school CFIs or owners have any experience in jets, let alone flying with cadets )
Can anybody name a profession where in less than 2 years you are let loose in a position that used to take 5-7 years to accomplish ? Even basic trades take double that time to complete.
Of course all this is fuelled by " Gen Y can't I have it all immediately ", bypass the bush flying, basings in places nobody ever heard of and for what appears to be a great income til your mates graduate after 4 or 5 years and are instantly on double the pay you are.
Whats that I hear ? crickets ?
Stop quoting the BS from the flying schools that clearly have a lot to gain from this. ( and I would hazard a guess none of the flying school CFIs or owners have any experience in jets, let alone flying with cadets )
Can anybody name a profession where in less than 2 years you are let loose in a position that used to take 5-7 years to accomplish ? Even basic trades take double that time to complete.
Of course all this is fuelled by " Gen Y can't I have it all immediately ", bypass the bush flying, basings in places nobody ever heard of and for what appears to be a great income til your mates graduate after 4 or 5 years and are instantly on double the pay you are.
XJT, Do you have a link to verify your quote from Boston Consulting re Hull Loss'?
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Two separate issues here ... the pay / industrial relations one and the safety one ...
Why don't you hard core bush pilots go and get on the phone to all those really disreputable and dodgey outfits like BA, Cathay, Lufthansa and grant them the insight of your superior wisdom to explain to them why the cadet schemes they've been running for the last several decades are actually completely unsafe and a total scandal.
I should know, as a captain I became incapacitated a few years ago (massive sudden-onset food poisoning) in a crappy old turboprop freighter in the Shetland Islands, with a 200 hour whippersnapper cadet in the RHS ... and the lad did a bloody great job of hand flying a non precision approach to minimums, in a sh!tty rainy day with a 25 kt gusty crosswind. He was only a few weeks out of his IR issue and been checked to line for about a month.
I do not have a safety issue with properly checked and trained cadets at all, and neither do any of the training captains at most of the big European and Asian airlines where they've been around for decades.
HOwever, the old-school way of doing things was that the cadets actually got their training paid for or subsidized and they were not on separate pay scales once they were checked to line, they certainly didn't represent a threat to T&C's of existing pilots. What's going on now with these big flying schools getting into bed with the lo-cos and using the guy in the RHS as a profit centre, is an absolute ing disgrace and needs to be dealt with asap.
However imho it's got to be the existing unions that grow some cojones and deal with it, because the kids ain't gonna stop queueing up to throw themselves at these schemes because of what they read on pprune
Why don't you hard core bush pilots go and get on the phone to all those really disreputable and dodgey outfits like BA, Cathay, Lufthansa and grant them the insight of your superior wisdom to explain to them why the cadet schemes they've been running for the last several decades are actually completely unsafe and a total scandal.
I should know, as a captain I became incapacitated a few years ago (massive sudden-onset food poisoning) in a crappy old turboprop freighter in the Shetland Islands, with a 200 hour whippersnapper cadet in the RHS ... and the lad did a bloody great job of hand flying a non precision approach to minimums, in a sh!tty rainy day with a 25 kt gusty crosswind. He was only a few weeks out of his IR issue and been checked to line for about a month.
I do not have a safety issue with properly checked and trained cadets at all, and neither do any of the training captains at most of the big European and Asian airlines where they've been around for decades.
HOwever, the old-school way of doing things was that the cadets actually got their training paid for or subsidized and they were not on separate pay scales once they were checked to line, they certainly didn't represent a threat to T&C's of existing pilots. What's going on now with these big flying schools getting into bed with the lo-cos and using the guy in the RHS as a profit centre, is an absolute
ing disgrace and needs to be dealt with asap.However imho it's got to be the existing unions that grow some cojones and deal with it, because the kids ain't gonna stop queueing up to throw themselves at these schemes because of what they read on pprune
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Jetstars problems are allot deeper than the cadet issue...lets not forget the fact that this airline was set up to draw a line in the sand to thwart an aggressive VB.....the fact that the pilots at the time sold themselves out and agreed to do the flying cheaper than QF pilots..once in 2003, and again in 2005 by taking the A330 flying for 40% less speaks volumes as far as I'm concerned..
There will NEVER be unity between QF and JQ guys..NEVER..as much as AIPA and the feds want to crap on about it, it will never happen..you have two opposing forces at work..
And as far as the Jetstar/QF guys and gals go...no point bitching and whining about your crap work conditions or in QF's case, reduction in flying, you and AIPA should of sorted that **** out in 2003 when you had the chance...instead AIPA screwed it for themselves and the Impulse guys shouldnt have been so trigger happy to steal the flying.....simple as that..
Now what we all have to do is try and rebuild and regroup and try and get some dignity and worth back into the profession...
There will NEVER be unity between QF and JQ guys..NEVER..as much as AIPA and the feds want to crap on about it, it will never happen..you have two opposing forces at work..
And as far as the Jetstar/QF guys and gals go...no point bitching and whining about your crap work conditions or in QF's case, reduction in flying, you and AIPA should of sorted that **** out in 2003 when you had the chance...instead AIPA screwed it for themselves and the Impulse guys shouldnt have been so trigger happy to steal the flying.....simple as that..
Now what we all have to do is try and rebuild and regroup and try and get some dignity and worth back into the profession...
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Yet after all this you think they can't safely land the plane without the captain? or can't assist by following SOPS in an emergency? Rubbish. They just have to choose the right individuals.
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You don't see solicitors jump straight from a 2 year fast track course to be the attorney general or a judge or a solicitor - what's that oh yeah they make coffee. And that's about as useful as these cadets are!!
You won't see ANY profession the world over do this except aviation. It's just ridiculous... TheSe so called "gods gift pilots" most definately can't be that bright and the "cream of the crop" as anyone with half a brain would see what they ategetting into and go join a "real" profession, aviation isn't one of them just ask management...
If you don't need experience to fly and manage an aircraft I dare say you won't need any to run and manage a group of aircraft. Let one of these cadets take Joyce's seat I'm sure that might actually make an improvement.
As for aptitude testing, I think you'll find there is only one question - how big a pineapple can we fit? Don't worry with a little practice I'm sure you could fit the whole farm at this rate...
Don't get me wrong a balanced intake of properly trained and integrated cadets in a second officer or cruise fo position may be benificial but when the **** hits the fan 200hrs is just scary... Mark my words it will be a coronial enquiry and not a senate enquiry if something isn't done to stop this cancerous management scam!!
You won't see ANY profession the world over do this except aviation. It's just ridiculous... TheSe so called "gods gift pilots" most definately can't be that bright and the "cream of the crop" as anyone with half a brain would see what they ategetting into and go join a "real" profession, aviation isn't one of them just ask management...
If you don't need experience to fly and manage an aircraft I dare say you won't need any to run and manage a group of aircraft. Let one of these cadets take Joyce's seat I'm sure that might actually make an improvement.
As for aptitude testing, I think you'll find there is only one question - how big a pineapple can we fit? Don't worry with a little practice I'm sure you could fit the whole farm at this rate...
Don't get me wrong a balanced intake of properly trained and integrated cadets in a second officer or cruise fo position may be benificial but when the **** hits the fan 200hrs is just scary... Mark my words it will be a coronial enquiry and not a senate enquiry if something isn't done to stop this cancerous management scam!!
My my. I only have a PPL and I still learn something new on every flight.
I should have paid a little more and obtained a commercial licence, then I would know everything necessary to fly a heavy jet once I had flown 200 hours.
200 hour cadets need one of these in the front window:
I should have paid a little more and obtained a commercial licence, then I would know everything necessary to fly a heavy jet once I had flown 200 hours.
200 hour cadets need one of these in the front window:
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LST, I don't know about BA and Lufthansa, but I'll say it again, CX cadets don't get to the RHS for 3-5 years, KA cadets do and it's bluddy hard work for the Captains, the most heard phrase on a KA flight deck with a cadet in the RHS is " priority left " Fact.
Sorry to burst your bubble and your great " there we were......" story, I am talking about daily events not a once in a career event with an very capable low hour pilot.
Sorry to burst your bubble and your great " there we were......" story, I am talking about daily events not a once in a career event with an very capable low hour pilot.
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Dont worry about bursting my bubble hongkongfooey, it wasn't really meant as a big story for telling round the bar and I'm sorry if it came across that way. Maybe the KA cadets are hard work for the trainers and maybe they aren't, I could care less. Maybe there's something else wrong in the KA selection and training process.
It doesn't change the undeniable fact that there are dozens and dozens of airlines around the world, legacy and low cost and everything in between, who have safely and successfully been putting 200 hour guys into the RHS of jets for many many years now. Just because it flies in the face of what's traditionally been accepted in Australia / NZ, doesn't make it less of a fact.
I guess the most relevant model for Jetstar would be Ryanair and/or Easyjet, both of which are massively huge low cost airlines and both of which have been flying self funded cadets pretty much since they started in the '80s. Those airlines must have done millions of sectors between them over the last couple of decades since the low cost boom took off in Europe ... and if you can be bothered to read back through the pages of PPRUNE from the '80s and '90s you'll see people crying about how all these cadets are ticking time bombs and it will all end in tears and disaster.
Well all I'm saying is, it still hasn't happened. I am no fan of those company's business practices either, especially Ryanair has some sharp practices of financially raping their crews that most other bean counter airlines can only dream of. But sooner or later you have to admit that the detractors were wrong, from a pure safety point of view, after a few million sectors and years and years and years of high-volume safe operations, they're still doing it successfully.
Of course not all 200 hour pilots are ready for jets, and yes of course it requires a good selection and training process, an effective regulatory oversight and a team of bloody good training and management captains in the airline concerned, in order to make it work. In the absence of those factors then yes, risk levels shoot through the roof. However if it's done right then it really isn't an issue.
Please note that all my arguments above, is purely related to SAFETY issues surrounding flying with low time cadets, and has nothing whatsoever to do with defending the morality of what's going on here in terms of the industrial relations aspect and the financial shafting these kids are receiving - which makes me as sick as the next man.
It doesn't change the undeniable fact that there are dozens and dozens of airlines around the world, legacy and low cost and everything in between, who have safely and successfully been putting 200 hour guys into the RHS of jets for many many years now. Just because it flies in the face of what's traditionally been accepted in Australia / NZ, doesn't make it less of a fact.
I guess the most relevant model for Jetstar would be Ryanair and/or Easyjet, both of which are massively huge low cost airlines and both of which have been flying self funded cadets pretty much since they started in the '80s. Those airlines must have done millions of sectors between them over the last couple of decades since the low cost boom took off in Europe ... and if you can be bothered to read back through the pages of PPRUNE from the '80s and '90s you'll see people crying about how all these cadets are ticking time bombs and it will all end in tears and disaster.
Well all I'm saying is, it still hasn't happened. I am no fan of those company's business practices either, especially Ryanair has some sharp practices of financially raping their crews that most other bean counter airlines can only dream of. But sooner or later you have to admit that the detractors were wrong, from a pure safety point of view, after a few million sectors and years and years and years of high-volume safe operations, they're still doing it successfully.
Of course not all 200 hour pilots are ready for jets, and yes of course it requires a good selection and training process, an effective regulatory oversight and a team of bloody good training and management captains in the airline concerned, in order to make it work. In the absence of those factors then yes, risk levels shoot through the roof. However if it's done right then it really isn't an issue.
Please note that all my arguments above, is purely related to SAFETY issues surrounding flying with low time cadets, and has nothing whatsoever to do with defending the morality of what's going on here in terms of the industrial relations aspect and the financial shafting these kids are receiving - which makes me as sick as the next man.
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The trouble with 200hr cadets or any pilot with low experience sitting in the right seat of a big jet is that the ennui sets in rather quickly.
Nothing beats flogging around in a KingAir, PC9, or a Dash, etc and building up some 'war stories' to relate between lunch, the newspaper, the descent brief and the landing.
Being an airline pilot use to be the graduation, not the apprenticeship.
Nothing beats flogging around in a KingAir, PC9, or a Dash, etc and building up some 'war stories' to relate between lunch, the newspaper, the descent brief and the landing.
Being an airline pilot use to be the graduation, not the apprenticeship.
Don't give them sectors!
Simple short term answer is to never give them a sector. Nothing requires them to be given half the flying so don't. Is this playing the man not the ball, yes, too bad. These kids are helping to destroy the industry and should be taught it's not on. Every 35 days they can go into the Sim and get current again, who pays for that's? Hopefully their company but again, who cares. Would this be discriminatory, perhaps, let's have the discussion in open court, AIPA will help represent the Captain no doubt.
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Once again...........off the topic we go............cadets/aptitude testing.....etc
Cadets......better or not........reality is JQ have them and there are enough in the wind to keep the system going (in short term at least).
Back to the topic.
Are JQ recruiting.
Yes it would seem, and so under a new "modern" group award contract.
Part time position guaranteed 600hrs per calendar year minimum at $101 per hour.
All the b*tching and moaning in the world isn't going to stop the cadets, lets face it, whilst there is an avenue to "jump the queue" or get ahead people will do it whether its aviation or any other industry.
Maybe the unions will help put an end to it/maybe they can't/won't.
However, supply & demand will in both instances (cadets/DE).
How many are going to jump at the NEW "group" contract?
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Everyone here can argue till blue in the face about QF/JQ/Impulse/AIPA/AFAP etc etc etc and how it might have altered the current state but once again back at reality, this is what has been thrown out to the wolves.
Let's see who takes it................
Cadets......better or not........reality is JQ have them and there are enough in the wind to keep the system going (in short term at least).
Back to the topic.
Are JQ recruiting.
Yes it would seem, and so under a new "modern" group award contract.
Part time position guaranteed 600hrs per calendar year minimum at $101 per hour.
All the b*tching and moaning in the world isn't going to stop the cadets, lets face it, whilst there is an avenue to "jump the queue" or get ahead people will do it whether its aviation or any other industry.
Maybe the unions will help put an end to it/maybe they can't/won't.
However, supply & demand will in both instances (cadets/DE).
How many are going to jump at the NEW "group" contract?
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Everyone here can argue till blue in the face about QF/JQ/Impulse/AIPA/AFAP etc etc etc and how it might have altered the current state but once again back at reality, this is what has been thrown out to the wolves.
Let's see who takes it................
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hmmmm
The way I see it is............
If these cadets were so great and we should all be in awe of how smart they are then why the heck arent they getting the same rates and EBA as a normal FO.
Simple, Jetstar see them as cheap labour and as such will pay them accordingly to what they think of their skills and experience.
Pay peanuts expect monkeys
If these cadets were so great and we should all be in awe of how smart they are then why the heck arent they getting the same rates and EBA as a normal FO.
Simple, Jetstar see them as cheap labour and as such will pay them accordingly to what they think of their skills and experience.
Pay peanuts expect monkeys
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Swim
Oh they are smart. So smart they can't see the cash (because there is none) for the nice brightly lit cockpit! Uninformed with no industry experience more like. But really we arn't talking about cadets here though. The latest drive for pilots by Jetstar will test the water and see if they can get experienced pilots for the price of a cadet.
Anyone who suggests that experience counts for nothing and you can train someone to the same standard should pull their head in. There is a big difference between sitting in the right seat with an experienced Captain watching over you and actually taking full responsibility on your own. (please don't suggest you can teach this in a sim) You would only make such a comment if you had little experience and had never been really tested out on a consistant basis.
SN
Oh they are smart. So smart they can't see the cash (because there is none) for the nice brightly lit cockpit! Uninformed with no industry experience more like. But really we arn't talking about cadets here though. The latest drive for pilots by Jetstar will test the water and see if they can get experienced pilots for the price of a cadet.
Anyone who suggests that experience counts for nothing and you can train someone to the same standard should pull their head in. There is a big difference between sitting in the right seat with an experienced Captain watching over you and actually taking full responsibility on your own. (please don't suggest you can teach this in a sim) You would only make such a comment if you had little experience and had never been really tested out on a consistant basis.
SN