Jetstar to start recruiting
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Oz land
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hahaha
What a disgrace that is !!!
Seems they trying to get to smart for their own boots. Employed part time but expected to work full time hours
No thanks happy to remain in current paying job than take a pay cut for that garbage. I would be very surprised if any fellow pilots I know would take this up and they would be the turboprop/piston twin drivers with well over minimums!!
Cadets for management anyone??? Bunch of amateurs are onestar
What a disgrace that is !!!
Seems they trying to get to smart for their own boots. Employed part time but expected to work full time hours
No thanks happy to remain in current paying job than take a pay cut for that garbage. I would be very surprised if any fellow pilots I know would take this up and they would be the turboprop/piston twin drivers with well over minimums!!
Cadets for management anyone??? Bunch of amateurs are onestar
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 767
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guessed J* would be no different.
The one common denominator in all these schemes is:
OXFORD AVIATION ACADEMY
Petteford has demonstrated that he is very competent in selling airlines the product he has to sell!! It doesn't matter what airline, the business model is exactly the same.
Just in case you are wondering he doesn't sell flight training to individuals, although this is a very lucrative by-product as far as his company is concerned given the inflated prices his organisation charges.
Anyone that calls an individual who is not attached to an Airline brandd scheme a 'white tail' is certainly not interested in you as a customer who is spending a significant amount on money, you are just an income stream - it is as impersonal as that!! Nothing personal, just business!!
He actually sells a concept to airlines that can provide them with a neutral cost training solution in which the Airline has to bear no training risk. This provides the Airline with a bunch of highly motivated individuals who have no choice but to yield to unacceptable Ts and Cs and being treated like sh1t and ensures that Oxford can continue to badge their APPFO course with a designer airline branding (albeit with no tie in). This allows them to charge above market rates and ensure a continued supply of Gen Y individuals with Shiney White Jet Syndrome who do not yet understand that money is hard earned and easily spent to get themselves into a very significant debt for the sake of dreams.
What allows him to get away with this? YOU!!!
The thing is that that the wheels are starting to fall off. Everyone worldwide is waking up to these scam schemes that OAA are in the middle of. Check out the negative comments about the MPL progamme that Petteford talked Easyjet into elsewhere on PPRune, this provides a good snapshot of how everyone feels.
Good Luck in your deliberations
The Kelpie
Last edited by The Kelpie; 3rd May 2011 at 12:16.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 767
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Employed part time but expected to work full time hours
Ok, if Part Time is the go does that mean:
Duty hours are also Pro Rated down from the standard 38?
Minimum days off per week are pro-rated up from 2 days per week?
Stand Bys are pro-rated down?
etc. etc.
Does that also mean that Jetstar only get a proportion of an individuals FDL given they need to find alternative flying work in their spare time to make the salary up to anything that would enable a reasonable standard of living?
Where are AFAP on this? The silence coming from that camp whilst Jetstar continue to laugh in your faces is deafening. I think it is time to tell us what you are actually doing.
The Kelpie
ps anyone got a copy of the contract I could have a look at? I have an early draft but I am looking for the current version. Pm me for email if you can help.
Has there been a runner at Jetstar yet? Probably a totally foreign concept in Australia. But I've seen it in travels where pilots just lose it and don't show up for work after a night stop somewhere. Etiquette dictates you leave your uniform nicely folded on the hotel bed.
Jetstar management will get the pilots they deserve. I'll pi$$ myself laughing if I hear of a Jetstar pilot doing a runner- we would have hit the bottom!
Jetstar management will get the pilots they deserve. I'll pi$$ myself laughing if I hear of a Jetstar pilot doing a runner- we would have hit the bottom!
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Global
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gnads is on the money
I too have been thinking "has their been a runner yet"? just the other day when chatting to a mate about JQ cancellations and general crew discontent.
Runners were pretty common a few years back o/s when guys on crappy T&Cs were given the opportunity back home on something better. Sadly those days are gone.
The day the confirmed news of the #1 JQ runner in made.... is the day you can mark as the lowest point so far in the downward spiral of Australian aviation. Forget 89, forget the capitulation of the VQ pilot body..........
This is it
I too have been thinking "has their been a runner yet"? just the other day when chatting to a mate about JQ cancellations and general crew discontent.
Runners were pretty common a few years back o/s when guys on crappy T&Cs were given the opportunity back home on something better. Sadly those days are gone.
The day the confirmed news of the #1 JQ runner in made.... is the day you can mark as the lowest point so far in the downward spiral of Australian aviation. Forget 89, forget the capitulation of the VQ pilot body..........
This is it
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone is zero
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gnad's, anecdotally a "runner" has already been done in HNL by a A330 Captain during his training sectors several years ago, going back to EK.
The problem for an Australian citizen doing a runner is that j* will vigorously pursue any pilot with an outstanding debt:Pilot who failed test must pay for training: Court . This case sets a precedent.
So if the runner can't cough up the dough, bankruptcy proceeding can be initiated, and the possibility of having their passport suspended or travel restrictions imposed, a job elsewhere is out of the question. This is the basis of the debt bondage for the cadets (debt that cannot be repaid unless they work for whatever j* deem acceptable T&C). This is not a negotiated agreement, it is one dictated solely by the debt holder (j*). This is a decent back towards the 17th & 18th century, with slavery & peonage rearing its head.
The "part-time pay is full time work" demonstrates they will aggressively exploit every loophole in the pursuit of bonuses.
Oh, and yes I believe HNL running man followed the folded shirt protocol, to a tee.
The problem for an Australian citizen doing a runner is that j* will vigorously pursue any pilot with an outstanding debt:Pilot who failed test must pay for training: Court . This case sets a precedent.
So if the runner can't cough up the dough, bankruptcy proceeding can be initiated, and the possibility of having their passport suspended or travel restrictions imposed, a job elsewhere is out of the question. This is the basis of the debt bondage for the cadets (debt that cannot be repaid unless they work for whatever j* deem acceptable T&C). This is not a negotiated agreement, it is one dictated solely by the debt holder (j*). This is a decent back towards the 17th & 18th century, with slavery & peonage rearing its head.
The "part-time pay is full time work" demonstrates they will aggressively exploit every loophole in the pursuit of bonuses.
Oh, and yes I believe HNL running man followed the folded shirt protocol, to a tee.
GOLD..... PURE GOLD..Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: rangaville
Posts: 2,280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if this is true words cannot describe how sickening those people (if you can call them that) are in management...
It'll definitely be a no from me...
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Melbourne
Age: 60
Posts: 952
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Where are AFAP on this? The silence coming from that camp whilst Jetstar continue to laugh in your faces is deafening. I think it is time to tell us what you are actually doing.
DIVOSH!
P.S. You could also ask AIPA. AIPA claim that most J* members are AIPA members and have recently changed from AFAP to AIPA. Ask them what they're doing to help their new members...
DIVOSH it was AIPA that exposed the Cadet contract farce when a cadet went to AIPA and not the AFAP for assistance. You have to ask where has the AFAP been during the Senate Inquiry. A sad 8 page submission does not suggest that they are serious in addressing the threats to the pilot profession that the Qantas Group is determined to pursue.
As it is their name on the Jetstar EBA they should be a lot more visible in challenging Jetstar's attempts to circumvent it.
As it is their name on the Jetstar EBA they should be a lot more visible in challenging Jetstar's attempts to circumvent it.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: south pacific vagrant
Posts: 1,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe AFAP are about to meet Jetstar in FWA regarding employment within Australia on other than the EBA.
Whilst the rumour of parallel contracts had been about for a while, they had to wait for it to actually happen before proceedings could begin.
Perhaps an AFAP member can add more?
AIPA and AFAP have crossed swords in the past regarding protecting the "black and white" of the document, it would now appear AFAP are due some credit for consistency in this regard. I believe they will try to argue the EBA does provide coverage for all pilots employed in Australia.
Whilst the rumour of parallel contracts had been about for a while, they had to wait for it to actually happen before proceedings could begin.
Perhaps an AFAP member can add more?
AIPA and AFAP have crossed swords in the past regarding protecting the "black and white" of the document, it would now appear AFAP are due some credit for consistency in this regard. I believe they will try to argue the EBA does provide coverage for all pilots employed in Australia.
Meanwhile Jetstars partners in crime are full steam ahead recruiting some more slaves.
NZ's top pilot training company ramps up national recruiting drive | infonews.co.nz New Zealand's local news community Top training company my A*se.
I don't know how powers that be at CTC and Oxford for that matter sleep at night especially afer all the pain and anguish they have caused in the UK. Now they are hell bent on causing that same pain and anguish here.
NZ's top pilot training company ramps up national recruiting drive | infonews.co.nz New Zealand's local news community Top training company my A*se.
I don't know how powers that be at CTC and Oxford for that matter sleep at night especially afer all the pain and anguish they have caused in the UK. Now they are hell bent on causing that same pain and anguish here.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BN
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was in Halls Creek and was with simular hours as you and yes I would of given my left nut and eaten a **** sandwich to have a chance at a cadetship back then...having said that I still look back at the crack fondly and would love to have my old job if only for a week. 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's all well and good, normal human instincts/reactions and so on...
But -> this pay is after forking out for an endorsement? 35k +/-? Where does that come from. What about when it comes to having a kid, a mortgage etc. And all the other usual bread and butter items we have been known to accumulate in life. How can it work?! (She (or he) had better be rich perhaps!!!)
Short term yes I get your point but long term ... gee whiz that's a deep hole
But -> this pay is after forking out for an endorsement? 35k +/-? Where does that come from. What about when it comes to having a kid, a mortgage etc. And all the other usual bread and butter items we have been known to accumulate in life. How can it work?! (She (or he) had better be rich perhaps!!!
)Short term yes I get your point but long term ... gee whiz that's a deep hole
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: FL510
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Eyon, I don't see what's so bad about the J* program. I've talked to the head of their pilot recruitment and other influential people who work with J*. So far the longest a cadet has waited to get a job after completion of their training is 3 weeks. They will get their ATPL's in 3-4 years and be doing roughly 800-900 hours a year flying. They will be on a junior first officer salary which if you followed the senate enquiry was said to be $87,000 a year (this isn't the base salary though, it includes overtime etc benefits). After they have enough hours to get ATPL's they will be on regular J* first officer salaries which are just under $100,000 per year. I was also informed that they will likely be offered command positions after the 6 years, so that will again increase their salary to just under $170,000 a year.
J* have over 40 orders for new aircraft at the moment, the crew to plane ratio is 6:1. There will be plenty of positions available for cadets. Airlines are not looking into ga any more, especially overseas. Its only in Australia and USA that ga is the natural progression to an airline. In Europe, cadet programs have been in place for over 20 years! They have proven to make great pilots, actually better than ga pilots. Cadets are trained from the start to fly as a team, as a crew, and don't spend years in the outback developing bad habits. The hundred's or thousands of hours you accumulate in ga are not very valuable. Airlines won't care weather you have 1000 hours in ga or 3000 hours in ga.
Another common alternate in Australia is to do a 3-4 year university degree which you get your CPL and IR at the end. This costs around $130,000. The J* course costs around $200,000 total including A320 endorsement in HK. More specifically the phase 1 before you get your A320 endorsement costs $124,000 and that includes CPL, IR, Frozen ATPL, gas turbine time. Even if you didn't get a job in J* after for a highly unlikely reason as another GFC you'd have qualifications which prepare you better for ga than the uni alternate. Also the Phase 1 of the J* ab-initio course only takes 18 months not 3-4 years.
J* have over 40 orders for new aircraft at the moment, the crew to plane ratio is 6:1. There will be plenty of positions available for cadets. Airlines are not looking into ga any more, especially overseas. Its only in Australia and USA that ga is the natural progression to an airline. In Europe, cadet programs have been in place for over 20 years! They have proven to make great pilots, actually better than ga pilots. Cadets are trained from the start to fly as a team, as a crew, and don't spend years in the outback developing bad habits. The hundred's or thousands of hours you accumulate in ga are not very valuable. Airlines won't care weather you have 1000 hours in ga or 3000 hours in ga.
Another common alternate in Australia is to do a 3-4 year university degree which you get your CPL and IR at the end. This costs around $130,000. The J* course costs around $200,000 total including A320 endorsement in HK. More specifically the phase 1 before you get your A320 endorsement costs $124,000 and that includes CPL, IR, Frozen ATPL, gas turbine time. Even if you didn't get a job in J* after for a highly unlikely reason as another GFC you'd have qualifications which prepare you better for ga than the uni alternate. Also the Phase 1 of the J* ab-initio course only takes 18 months not 3-4 years.
What utter crap BP77
The GA guys start out in a single engine aeroplane, and at the end of their stint after flying piston twins, turbine singles and twins are generally regional airline captains on Dash 8s, Brasilia's, Metros, Saabs etc.
They are a far better product with multi crew command experience than a know it all cadet who has never had any command experience other than 70 hours in a light aircraft.
I had been operating in a CAR217 operation in GA using simulators every 6 months for my checks. I had been exposed to this for some time before I even started flying for a regional airline.
The reason Europe has cadets is they have no GA. If they did, the system would be the same as here or the US.
The GA guys start out in a single engine aeroplane, and at the end of their stint after flying piston twins, turbine singles and twins are generally regional airline captains on Dash 8s, Brasilia's, Metros, Saabs etc.
They are a far better product with multi crew command experience than a know it all cadet who has never had any command experience other than 70 hours in a light aircraft.
I had been operating in a CAR217 operation in GA using simulators every 6 months for my checks. I had been exposed to this for some time before I even started flying for a regional airline.
The reason Europe has cadets is they have no GA. If they did, the system would be the same as here or the US.
Last edited by The Green Goblin; 4th May 2011 at 10:44.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: FL510
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I see what your saying. I am just expressing what i've been told. Your probably right about the GA, I'm sure a lot of them make great pilots, but to get into a cadet program you have to pass aptitude testing. You can't be of the same tier as the rest of the flying population. With only 15 or so spots with each intake with J* and thousands of applicants, you have to be the elite to get a spot, so its quite likely cadets would make some pretty damn good pilots.
Regardless which produces better pilots, the facts and figures I outlined above doesn't make the program as bad as people say. If I as missing something on this program, please let me know
Regardless which produces better pilots, the facts and figures I outlined above doesn't make the program as bad as people say. If I as missing something on this program, please let me know
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone is zero
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am just expressing what i've been told.
Listen champ I've seen everything from fighter pilots through to GA through to cadets from the back seat the right seat & left seat, and you know what I can't tell the difference between any of them. I couldn't have picked their background if they have more than a couple of years on type.
You have been bought the bullsh!t propaganda hook line and sinker. You, the j* cadet represent profit & bonuses - that is the only reason they are doing it. Forget your elitist bullsh!t. your actually the chump! You are the pasty at the table.
BP77
You're still speaking crap. In fact, it sounds like it came straight off the back of an Oxford brochure.
Any Pilot wishing to work for Jetstar for instance, has to pass the same aptitude testing, whether cadet or EX GA.
As for the cadets? They need to draw a line in the sand somewhere in regards to entrance criteria to get the starting list a little smaller. Usually this will be in he way of high school results and subjects.
The way people talk about GA they make it sound like these Pilots step out of C210s from working in the Kimberley and front up to fly an A320.
This is not, nor has ever been the case.
GA Pilots start out in a single engine aeroplane. They accrue 1000 hours or so and an instrument rating before seeking multi engine work. After they have 500 multi engine command, they seek multi engine multi crew turbine experience. Once they have a year or two of this (generally in a 217 operation), they are up for a command. This will usually see them in the vicinity of 2500 hours, 1500 multi engine hours with 500 command and 1000 multi crew turbine.
They will usually have apps in with airlines at this stage and hold a full ATPL. While they are waiting for that call, they are accruing multi engine turbine command time and usually have over 3000 hours by the time they get a Airline offer.
Lets also be honest, while they are working in the regional airline, they are flying the same approaches, the same SIDS and STARS, under the same IFR regulations with similar calls, automation CRM and check and training.
It's all about small steps.
Transitioning to a jet airline from here is learning about flying a jet, and new company SOPs. They are not learning how to operate in a multi crew or how to operate as a Pilot.
Think about this before you shoot from the hip.
You're still speaking crap. In fact, it sounds like it came straight off the back of an Oxford brochure.
Any Pilot wishing to work for Jetstar for instance, has to pass the same aptitude testing, whether cadet or EX GA.
As for the cadets? They need to draw a line in the sand somewhere in regards to entrance criteria to get the starting list a little smaller. Usually this will be in he way of high school results and subjects.
The way people talk about GA they make it sound like these Pilots step out of C210s from working in the Kimberley and front up to fly an A320.
This is not, nor has ever been the case.
GA Pilots start out in a single engine aeroplane. They accrue 1000 hours or so and an instrument rating before seeking multi engine work. After they have 500 multi engine command, they seek multi engine multi crew turbine experience. Once they have a year or two of this (generally in a 217 operation), they are up for a command. This will usually see them in the vicinity of 2500 hours, 1500 multi engine hours with 500 command and 1000 multi crew turbine.
They will usually have apps in with airlines at this stage and hold a full ATPL. While they are waiting for that call, they are accruing multi engine turbine command time and usually have over 3000 hours by the time they get a Airline offer.
Lets also be honest, while they are working in the regional airline, they are flying the same approaches, the same SIDS and STARS, under the same IFR regulations with similar calls, automation CRM and check and training.
It's all about small steps.
Transitioning to a jet airline from here is learning about flying a jet, and new company SOPs. They are not learning how to operate in a multi crew or how to operate as a Pilot.
Think about this before you shoot from the hip.