Jetstar cadets grounded
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Oh Dear....all these calls for joining a Union
.......I was led to believe that Unions and Union Bosses were very bad.....very bad indeed
......Tony Abbot & the Libs repeatedly tell me so 
.....(OK they forget to tell us the AMA are essentially a Union, but that's a different story.....
)....strange times indeed
.......I was led to believe that Unions and Union Bosses were very bad.....very bad indeed......Tony Abbot & the Libs repeatedly tell me so .....(OK they forget to tell us the AMA are essentially a Union, but that's a different story.....)....strange times indeed
To clarify,
Qantas Cadets and Jetstar Cadets are not employed by either airline or the group. They have signed a contract but it is merely a set of rules (don't be stupid, turn up to classes, don't turn up drunk, respect everyone etc. etc.). The job at the end is merely a promise dependent on economic conditions and personnel performance.
Therefore they can't join the union as far as I understand.
The testing for the Jetstar Cadetship is largely handled by the training organisations, for Qantas it is handled in house using the same process (although as someone already said possibly different weighting) as the DE guys minus the sim.
Qantas Cadets and Jetstar Cadets are not employed by either airline or the group. They have signed a contract but it is merely a set of rules (don't be stupid, turn up to classes, don't turn up drunk, respect everyone etc. etc.). The job at the end is merely a promise dependent on economic conditions and personnel performance.
Therefore they can't join the union as far as I understand.
The testing for the Jetstar Cadetship is largely handled by the training organisations, for Qantas it is handled in house using the same process (although as someone already said possibly different weighting) as the DE guys minus the sim.
From Wiktionary
Noun
coalition (plural*coalitions)
A temporary group or union of organizations, usually formed for a particular advantage.
Sorry, I put coalition in commy red!
Party
A political group considered as a formal whole, united under one specific political platform of issues and campaigning to take part in government.
Don't ever forget that they don't usually vote for their individual constituencies and cross the floor as allowed by the constitution but as a UNION!
Sorry for the thread drift! If they are in breach of the Australian regs (ignoring Ops Manual requirements), any chance of CASA being required to investigate after a cair report?
Noun
coalition (plural*coalitions)
A temporary group or union of organizations, usually formed for a particular advantage.
Sorry, I put coalition in commy red!
Party
A political group considered as a formal whole, united under one specific political platform of issues and campaigning to take part in government.
Don't ever forget that they don't usually vote for their individual constituencies and cross the floor as allowed by the constitution but as a UNION!
Sorry for the thread drift! If they are in breach of the Australian regs (ignoring Ops Manual requirements), any chance of CASA being required to investigate after a cair report?
Last edited by maggotdriver; 9th Mar 2011 at 10:53. Reason: Detail
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Mcgrath50 has hit it on the head.
JQ Cadet testing is merely excercies organised by the training organisations themselves. They have changed the process a few times already. QF Cadet selection is very similar to Direct Entry selection but with a greater emphasis on acedemics, personality and motivation.
JQ Cadet testing is merely excercies organised by the training organisations themselves. They have changed the process a few times already. QF Cadet selection is very similar to Direct Entry selection but with a greater emphasis on acedemics, personality and motivation.
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Facts?
mcgrath50,
My copy of the contract states that the employer is Jetstar Airways Limited [NZBN: 1263469] and the job is as a Cadet Pilot.
This NZ incorporated company is a wholly owned ($2?) subsidiary of Mother Qantas, see:
View All Details
The burning question is: what are the contractual arrangements between the two wholly owned subsidiaries, one Australian and one Kiwi, that puts the cadets on the flight deck of Australian registered aircraft?
Did AFAP (as respondent to the Jetstar EBA) agree to the displacement of Jetstar Oz pilots or did nobody care because it only affects Jetstar Oz FOs?
There are several ways to achieve the result, all of which involve consultation with the pilot group, if Jetstar was of the corporate mind to engage with its staff. Given that AJ is a member of all the subsidiary boards and "the directing mind and will" of the wholly owned subsidiaries (all the other Directors are his employees!), that would mean that he was willing to engage with his staff...
And to declare my hand, I believe that the cadets need industrial representation because the egregious exploitation of their willingness to break into the game far outweighs their naivety into taking up the opportunity.
Stay Alive,
My copy of the contract states that the employer is Jetstar Airways Limited [NZBN: 1263469] and the job is as a Cadet Pilot.
This NZ incorporated company is a wholly owned ($2?) subsidiary of Mother Qantas, see:
View All Details
The burning question is: what are the contractual arrangements between the two wholly owned subsidiaries, one Australian and one Kiwi, that puts the cadets on the flight deck of Australian registered aircraft?
Did AFAP (as respondent to the Jetstar EBA) agree to the displacement of Jetstar Oz pilots or did nobody care because it only affects Jetstar Oz FOs?
There are several ways to achieve the result, all of which involve consultation with the pilot group, if Jetstar was of the corporate mind to engage with its staff. Given that AJ is a member of all the subsidiary boards and "the directing mind and will" of the wholly owned subsidiaries (all the other Directors are his employees!), that would mean that he was willing to engage with his staff...
And to declare my hand, I believe that the cadets need industrial representation because the egregious exploitation of their willingness to break into the game far outweighs their naivety into taking up the opportunity.
Stay Alive,
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Simple really 4dogs. The board of Jetstar Australia did a deal with the board of Jetstar New Zealand - ie AJ had a conversation with himself. This tells me this is his brainchild and he is responsible. Perhaps the Senator could ask him when he fronts up next Friday what is going on.
Is Paul Daff, one of the listed directors of Jetstar Airways (the New Zealand one, not the real one) not Jetconnect CEO?
You know the guy who does not, as CEO know whether Jetconnect has a bank account?
I wonder if he knows whether Jetstar New Zealand have a bank account?
Interesting!
More to Follow......I am sure!
The Kelpie
Is Paul Daff, one of the listed directors of Jetstar Airways (the New Zealand one, not the real one) not Jetconnect CEO?
You know the guy who does not, as CEO know whether Jetconnect has a bank account?
I wonder if he knows whether Jetstar New Zealand have a bank account?
Interesting!
More to Follow......I am sure!
The Kelpie
Last edited by The Kelpie; 9th Mar 2011 at 19:30.
4dogs,
Not the impression I was given but then again I haven't seen the contract so I bow to your knowledge. Are you talking about both the advanced or ab-initio?
I still stand by my point for the QF cadets though, that one I know is correct
If their contract is an employment one is union membership possible?
Not the impression I was given but then again I haven't seen the contract so I bow to your knowledge. Are you talking about both the advanced or ab-initio?
I still stand by my point for the QF cadets though, that one I know is correct
If their contract is an employment one is union membership possible?
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McGrath50
I know AFAP have a level of membership for unemployed pilots so I guess that suggests you do not need to be employed to be a member of a union.
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The Kelpie
I know AFAP have a level of membership for unemployed pilots so I guess that suggests you do not need to be employed to be a member of a union.
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The Kelpie
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From a confirmed source: The cadets will now be based in Melbourne, Sydney or Brisbane/Gold coast.
So now we have people flying Australian routes on a permanent basing who are not on the EBA and outside the seniority system.
The pilots up in Darwin waiting for a slot to get home have been screwed. The pilots on the hold pool waiting to get in have been screwed. ALL CURRENT FIRST OFFICERS have been screwed as they will lose all their overtime and day-off payments to these low grade salary cadets.
In a few years, once these cadets have had a ridiculous amount of ICUS they will be given commands ahead of all first officers on separate lower pay scales. Then ALL CAPTAINS will be screwed because they will start to lose their overtime, day off and preferred base allocations.
The sky is falling people.
So now we have people flying Australian routes on a permanent basing who are not on the EBA and outside the seniority system.
The pilots up in Darwin waiting for a slot to get home have been screwed. The pilots on the hold pool waiting to get in have been screwed. ALL CURRENT FIRST OFFICERS have been screwed as they will lose all their overtime and day-off payments to these low grade salary cadets.
In a few years, once these cadets have had a ridiculous amount of ICUS they will be given commands ahead of all first officers on separate lower pay scales. Then ALL CAPTAINS will be screwed because they will start to lose their overtime, day off and preferred base allocations.
The sky is falling people.
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Long John, I am not trying to sound abrasive here, perhaps now you understand how mainline pilots feel. This has been their scenario for the last 10 years. I'm on your side, as further division is exactly what the company wants, as proven by the new crack they have just opened up on you. This is why we need to work together, not at each others throats. This is why mainline pilots are going to vote on PIA.
The sooner everyone realises that the enemy is not your fellow pilots, but management, the sooner every pilot stops getting screwed.
The sooner everyone realises that the enemy is not your fellow pilots, but management, the sooner every pilot stops getting screwed.
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breakfastburrito I can totally understand your sentiments regarding JQ. I also totally agree that we all need to stand together on this one.
My concern over cadets is not about the individuals themselves, I'm sure most are very decent people, probably just like all the rest of us, just a little younger, less experienced and a little naive.
We do need to stop pointing the finger at other pilots and remember how hard it was getting into this gig. Most of us had to apply everywhere and take whatever opportunity presented itself. That’s just the way this industry has been. So we can't sit on our thrones from on high and condemn the pilots below us as they grapple to get a foot in the door. Would we really be any different if we were in their shoes now? (perhaps we would have studied IT or accountancy...)
It’s management that we all need to focus our collective efforts on. Its management that have continually pushed to erode the meagre T&C’s that we currently have. It’s management that are compromising safety by placing low time inexperienced pilots behind the controls of Australian airliners. It’s management who will try to conquer us by dividing and pitting us against each other.
And where does the leadership for this fight need to come from? It needs to come from senior captains in Qantas, Jetstar, AND Virgin. We are all going to suffer the same fate in the end. And its senior pilots in these companies who need to lead the charge.
So far there has been a JQ FO sacked over taking a stand, and on the 7:30 report I saw a QF SO taking a stand. The captains who have the most industrial clout, the most experience, and the least to lose need to stand up and realise they carry the leadership on this issue for future generations.
As my dad used to say, "always leave something in the tank for the next guy".
My concern over cadets is not about the individuals themselves, I'm sure most are very decent people, probably just like all the rest of us, just a little younger, less experienced and a little naive.
We do need to stop pointing the finger at other pilots and remember how hard it was getting into this gig. Most of us had to apply everywhere and take whatever opportunity presented itself. That’s just the way this industry has been. So we can't sit on our thrones from on high and condemn the pilots below us as they grapple to get a foot in the door. Would we really be any different if we were in their shoes now? (perhaps we would have studied IT or accountancy...)
It’s management that we all need to focus our collective efforts on. Its management that have continually pushed to erode the meagre T&C’s that we currently have. It’s management that are compromising safety by placing low time inexperienced pilots behind the controls of Australian airliners. It’s management who will try to conquer us by dividing and pitting us against each other.
And where does the leadership for this fight need to come from? It needs to come from senior captains in Qantas, Jetstar, AND Virgin. We are all going to suffer the same fate in the end. And its senior pilots in these companies who need to lead the charge.
So far there has been a JQ FO sacked over taking a stand, and on the 7:30 report I saw a QF SO taking a stand. The captains who have the most industrial clout, the most experience, and the least to lose need to stand up and realise they carry the leadership on this issue for future generations.
As my dad used to say, "always leave something in the tank for the next guy".
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Just noticed this on Plane Talking.
Jetstar ‘sham’ pilot cadet scheme in turmoil – Plane Talking
Seems that the cadets get a free bank account opening holiday in NZ and then stay here to be screwed.
I warned my kids not to take lollies of strangers. This is worse?
Jetstar ‘sham’ pilot cadet scheme in turmoil – Plane Talking
Seems that the cadets get a free bank account opening holiday in NZ and then stay here to be screwed.
I warned my kids not to take lollies of strangers. This is worse?
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Good pick up denabol. Are management thick? The Senate inquiry was announced on 30 September 2010, the Jetconnect case was live, the spotlight was on them and they went ahead & blatantly attempted this scam - in broad daylight with everyone watching!! They treat the law, employee's & the Senate with utter contempt. This would have to be the most despicable act yet, who is going to lose their job? Not Bruce, not AJ, some low level functionary.
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Dale
The name of the Jetstar HR guy is Keith Abbott. Two B's and Two T's in Abbott.
aka 'The Fall Guy'
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The Kelpie
The name of the Jetstar HR guy is Keith Abbott. Two B's and Two T's in Abbott.
aka 'The Fall Guy'
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The Kelpie
Last edited by The Kelpie; 10th Mar 2011 at 03:27.
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Just had some feedback from a colleague the four Cadets in the news are confirmed to be on no salary but allowances only.
Those that are presently on the Ab-initio or advanced Cadetship at Oxford should be OK if the program gets canned because Anthony Petteford kindly told the Senators that his company gave a money back guarantee. Those at CTC, I am not sure because they have no such guarantee.
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The Kelpie
Those that are presently on the Ab-initio or advanced Cadetship at Oxford should be OK if the program gets canned because Anthony Petteford kindly told the Senators that his company gave a money back guarantee. Those at CTC, I am not sure because they have no such guarantee.
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The Kelpie
Careful Kelpie, if you read carefully AP's wording, it seems to me he is only referring to the MPL course and/or the courses run in the UK.
The Jetstar cadets aren't students at Swinburne (ie; the flying fees go to swinburne who then pays Oxford) so I would doubt they are eligible for the refund.
The Jetstar cadets aren't students at Swinburne (ie; the flying fees go to swinburne who then pays Oxford) so I would doubt they are eligible for the refund.
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McGrath50
I try my best to make sure everything I post on here is factual.
The money back guarantee or 'Skills Protection Plan' is offerred to all Oxford Integrated Students both in the UK and here in Australia. That is the reason they do the Selection Process to identify those where their risk of having to pay out is above a certain level. These guys get rejected!
This is off the OAA Website:
The below is a quote from the Oxford FAQ's relating to the JQ Cadet Programme o the Jetstar Website.
I know what you are gonna say, this relates to lack of ability. So, if you are stressed because your Hard Earned is about to get flushed down the toilet your performance suffers and hence your ability!!
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The Kelpie
I try my best to make sure everything I post on here is factual.
The money back guarantee or 'Skills Protection Plan' is offerred to all Oxford Integrated Students both in the UK and here in Australia. That is the reason they do the Selection Process to identify those where their risk of having to pay out is above a certain level. These guys get rejected!
This is off the OAA Website:
Skills Protection Plan
Our unique Skills Protection Plan (SPP) is specifically designed to help support your career ambitions to become an airline pilot.The plan helps to minimise the risks traditionally associated with undertaking the necessary training. It brings a new dimension to professional pilot training for self-sponsored students, offering safeguards never previously available - providing you with both the confidence and the support needed to embark upon an Integrated course of airline pilot training and at no extra insurance cost.
The SPP has incorporated into one package, 3 key measures which collectively reduce many of the risks inherent in undertaking any form of professional pilot training. By linking it exclusively to our APPFO Integrated course, SPP also ensures that students can complete their training virtually free of significant financial risk and with a high level of confidence in their ability to complete the course successfully.
In developing SPP, we have set out specifically to help protect our customer’s financial investment by transferring training and financial risk from an individual student over to Oxford Aviation Academy. By doing this, we believe we are acting ethically and at the same time demonstrating our faith in our SKILLS ASSESSMENT process coupled with the quality of our APP FIRST OFFICER training course.
Key Features
1. Skills Assessment Our 2-day Skills Assessment process ensures that only candidates with the necessary skills, aptitude and personality are offered places on our APPFO course. If you achieve the required standard during SKILLS ASSESSMENT, you can safely apply for APPFO training with a high degree of confidence in your suitability for an airline pilot career.
2. Skills Funding
Success during Skills Assessment does not just gain you the offer of an APPFO place. It also gives you access to the bespoke OAA & BBVA funding scheme, especially tailored to meet most of your training costs whilst freeing you of repayment concerns until you are established in your airline career.
3. Skills Guarantee
No matter how comprehensive our Skills Assessment, there can be never be a 100% guarantee that every trainee will achieve the very high standards required during training. Skills Guarantee ensures that the risk of failure due to lack of ability, however slight, does not deter good quality individuals from deciding to embark upon the airline pilot training. As a self-funded trainee, Skills Guarantee means that your financial commitment from training failure is virtually free of risk. This guarantee from OAA means that we could potentially refund to you your training costs should you fail to reach the required standard at any stage during your ab-initio training due to lack of ability. Skills Guarantee is a unique and highly valuable guarantee from OAA and is a reflection of our faith in the quality of the Skills Assessment process itself and the APP FO training programme which follows
Our unique Skills Protection Plan (SPP) is specifically designed to help support your career ambitions to become an airline pilot.The plan helps to minimise the risks traditionally associated with undertaking the necessary training. It brings a new dimension to professional pilot training for self-sponsored students, offering safeguards never previously available - providing you with both the confidence and the support needed to embark upon an Integrated course of airline pilot training and at no extra insurance cost.
The SPP has incorporated into one package, 3 key measures which collectively reduce many of the risks inherent in undertaking any form of professional pilot training. By linking it exclusively to our APPFO Integrated course, SPP also ensures that students can complete their training virtually free of significant financial risk and with a high level of confidence in their ability to complete the course successfully.
In developing SPP, we have set out specifically to help protect our customer’s financial investment by transferring training and financial risk from an individual student over to Oxford Aviation Academy. By doing this, we believe we are acting ethically and at the same time demonstrating our faith in our SKILLS ASSESSMENT process coupled with the quality of our APP FIRST OFFICER training course.
Key Features
1. Skills Assessment Our 2-day Skills Assessment process ensures that only candidates with the necessary skills, aptitude and personality are offered places on our APPFO course. If you achieve the required standard during SKILLS ASSESSMENT, you can safely apply for APPFO training with a high degree of confidence in your suitability for an airline pilot career.
2. Skills Funding
Success during Skills Assessment does not just gain you the offer of an APPFO place. It also gives you access to the bespoke OAA & BBVA funding scheme, especially tailored to meet most of your training costs whilst freeing you of repayment concerns until you are established in your airline career.
3. Skills Guarantee
No matter how comprehensive our Skills Assessment, there can be never be a 100% guarantee that every trainee will achieve the very high standards required during training. Skills Guarantee ensures that the risk of failure due to lack of ability, however slight, does not deter good quality individuals from deciding to embark upon the airline pilot training. As a self-funded trainee, Skills Guarantee means that your financial commitment from training failure is virtually free of risk. This guarantee from OAA means that we could potentially refund to you your training costs should you fail to reach the required standard at any stage during your ab-initio training due to lack of ability. Skills Guarantee is a unique and highly valuable guarantee from OAA and is a reflection of our faith in the quality of the Skills Assessment process itself and the APP FO training programme which follows
The below is a quote from the Oxford FAQ's relating to the JQ Cadet Programme o the Jetstar Website.
Will the OAA ‘Skills Protection Plan (SPP) guarantee apply to both the Jetstar APPFO Cadet Pilot and ACP Programmes?
Yes - OAA will apply full Skills Security guarantees to both courses of training.
Yes - OAA will apply full Skills Security guarantees to both courses of training.
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The Kelpie
I'm very surprised and must reluctantly pat Oxford on the back for that one!
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McGrath50
I believe that there may be some small print but it doesn't say so on the sales spiel.
If this all goes tits up don't let us down Mr Petteford, after all this is what you told the Senators!!
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The Kelpie
I believe that there may be some small print but it doesn't say so on the sales spiel.
If this all goes tits up don't let us down Mr Petteford, after all this is what you told the Senators!!
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The Kelpie