Jetstar cadets grounded
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I wonder if they will accept the public humiliation and close all future training on the program that they have "stood by" so vigorously?
It would be much more preferable now I would imagine for the airlines to allow the Senators to introduce minimum experience requirements, at which time the Cadet programmes become unfeasible.
We will just have to wait and see.
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The Kelpie
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Kelpie not sure if you've had a response, but my understanding is that FWA is a catch all for terms, conditions and wages for all workers Australia wide (ie a minimum acceptable standard).
Next on the list would be an industry particular award (aviation in this scenario).
And finally an EBA, which would be work place/company specific.
Each one may improve on the previous, but the FWA is the absolute minimum acceptable and if any employer tried and succeeded in getting an employee to sign it would be overturned (in theory anyway)
The Australian (Commonwealth) Contract I believe means it is binding nationwide and does not mean there are separate, contradictory contracts depending on where a cadet/pilot is based. Thus someone based in BNE is not on an Australian (Queensland) Contract, nor is someone based in SYD on an Australian (New South Wales) Contract, which may have different rates of pay/city specific allowances etc, etc.
Next on the list would be an industry particular award (aviation in this scenario).
And finally an EBA, which would be work place/company specific.
Each one may improve on the previous, but the FWA is the absolute minimum acceptable and if any employer tried and succeeded in getting an employee to sign it would be overturned (in theory anyway)
The Australian (Commonwealth) Contract I believe means it is binding nationwide and does not mean there are separate, contradictory contracts depending on where a cadet/pilot is based. Thus someone based in BNE is not on an Australian (Queensland) Contract, nor is someone based in SYD on an Australian (New South Wales) Contract, which may have different rates of pay/city specific allowances etc, etc.
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Seems that this has now hit the broadsheets. The Australian.
Now what Simon doesn't know is I have a set of secret agent x-ray spectacles, they cannot see underwear through clothes (although I wish they could) but what they do detect, very well is spin and BS!
so lets break his comments down:
Is that so!! well lets just leave that one on notice until next Friday when The Senators ask Bruce Buchanan the question in person.
Oh Simon you speak with such intimate knowledge of the subject matter. It is my understanding that these were in fact Oxford Advanced Cadets that were trained in Australia by Oxford Aviation Academy. The only reason that these cadets did their A3320 endorsement in Gatwick, UK and not in Hong Kong as planned was that Oxford did not have the capacity in their Hong Kong training facility to take them (all 4 of them!!). Oh and answer me this. If the Cadets did their training in New Zealand with CTC, Why did Jetstar have to fly them across to New Zealand before they left to do their A320 endorsement in the UK for the sole purpose of getting a tax file number and opening a bank account if they were already there and had been for a number of weeks?
You also acknowledge Simon that the Cadets were on Individual Employment Agreements whilst training in New Zealand. Norwithstanding that I believe the training took place in Australia and the UK, you seem to acknowledge that they were employed during training. I will come back to that one later, I have more to say on this subject.
BS. Jetstar have had 9 months to sort out the plan for the Cadets since the scheme was launched. I will, if necessary later post a copy of hard evidence disproving that this was Jetstar's intention.
Maybe be so but in doing so you broke the law. You want Pilots to work in Australia the law says you must pay them in accordance with Australian Law. The real reason you did not have them do their line training in New Zealand is that the NZCAA will not give Jetstar a concession and require 500 hours of RPT flying before you are able to act as Flight Crew on High Capacity RPT something the cadets an indeed many other Direct Entry recruits will not have (if such a thing still exists!
You want to have a New Zealand Airline and pay NZ dollars, get an AOC in New Zealand and get a Check and Training DEPARTMENT in New Zealand. As an aside, I am still suspicious about the reference to "Check and Training Organisation ".
Cannot comment, never been there. Maybe that is a safety angle. Hmmmm. Other than the fact that most A320s fly up around FL380 most of the time maybe they did not want to expose the cadets to challenging approaches just yet? Perhaps a confidence issue there. Speak to your Chief Pilot MR, he will put your mind at rest, he is 'very confident ' in the Cadets abilities.
Simon, I was once told that "if you are going to be a liar,be a good one" you I am sorry to say are not.
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The Kelpie
We're not trying to sidestep IR laws on training: Jetstar
rejected accusations that its cadet training scheme is a sham designed to evade the Australian industrial relations system and pay trainees in New Zealand dollars.
The Australian and International Pilots Association has written to the federal ministers for finance and workplace relations asking for investigation into whether Jetstar's cadet scheme flouts Australian workplace and tax laws.
The move comes after three cadets from a New Zealand-based training scheme were stood down operationally after they completed their line training. The association says the advanced cadets were asked to go to New Zealand for three days of observational flying, during which time they received Kiwi bank accounts and tax file numbers.
They then did their endorsement training in Britain and their line training in Australia while being paid in New Zealand dollars.
"They've always been resident in Australia, always been flying in Australia, they've never been resident in New Zealand," AIPA vice-president Richard Woodward said, noting that New Zealand legislation prevented the cadets from flying a jet in that country.
Captain Woodward said one of the cadets was sitting in a Sydney hotel room on allowances and no pay, and another was at home with his girlfriend while they waited for operational clearance.
"It's a total sham," he said. "One of the cadets was bright enough to ring the tax office and say: 'If I'm flying an Australian-registered aircraft and I'm an Australian citizen, should I be paid Australian wages and be paying Australian tax?' The answer was yes, so he was a bit concerned."
Jetstar denied it was not paying the cadets and said it was always the intention to switch the pilots to Australian contracts when their training was completed.
Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway said cadets were trained by CTC in Hamilton and were on New Zealand individual employment agreements during training. He said cadets were being paid in full while unable to fly in Australia.
He said a delay in the paperwork was because the system was new but future transitions would be "much more seamless". "We hadn't to this time finalised an Australian contract for our cadet program," he said.
Mr Westaway said the cadets had been flying in Australia because the airline's check and training organisation was predominantly positioned here.
"The other thing to keep in mind is the type of flying in New Zealand is completely different to the type of flying in Australia and you have complexities in the New Zealand aviation landscape with respect to Queenstown and Wellington flying," he said.
rejected accusations that its cadet training scheme is a sham designed to evade the Australian industrial relations system and pay trainees in New Zealand dollars.
The Australian and International Pilots Association has written to the federal ministers for finance and workplace relations asking for investigation into whether Jetstar's cadet scheme flouts Australian workplace and tax laws.
The move comes after three cadets from a New Zealand-based training scheme were stood down operationally after they completed their line training. The association says the advanced cadets were asked to go to New Zealand for three days of observational flying, during which time they received Kiwi bank accounts and tax file numbers.
They then did their endorsement training in Britain and their line training in Australia while being paid in New Zealand dollars.
"They've always been resident in Australia, always been flying in Australia, they've never been resident in New Zealand," AIPA vice-president Richard Woodward said, noting that New Zealand legislation prevented the cadets from flying a jet in that country.
Captain Woodward said one of the cadets was sitting in a Sydney hotel room on allowances and no pay, and another was at home with his girlfriend while they waited for operational clearance.
"It's a total sham," he said. "One of the cadets was bright enough to ring the tax office and say: 'If I'm flying an Australian-registered aircraft and I'm an Australian citizen, should I be paid Australian wages and be paying Australian tax?' The answer was yes, so he was a bit concerned."
Jetstar denied it was not paying the cadets and said it was always the intention to switch the pilots to Australian contracts when their training was completed.
Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway said cadets were trained by CTC in Hamilton and were on New Zealand individual employment agreements during training. He said cadets were being paid in full while unable to fly in Australia.
He said a delay in the paperwork was because the system was new but future transitions would be "much more seamless". "We hadn't to this time finalised an Australian contract for our cadet program," he said.
Mr Westaway said the cadets had been flying in Australia because the airline's check and training organisation was predominantly positioned here.
"The other thing to keep in mind is the type of flying in New Zealand is completely different to the type of flying in Australia and you have complexities in the New Zealand aviation landscape with respect to Queenstown and Wellington flying," he said.
so lets break his comments down:
Jetstar denied it was not paying the cadets and said it was always the intention to switch the pilots to Australian contracts when their training was completed.
Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway said cadets were trained by CTC in Hamilton and were on New Zealand individual employment agreements during training. He said cadets were being paid in full while unable to fly in Australia.
You also acknowledge Simon that the Cadets were on Individual Employment Agreements whilst training in New Zealand. Norwithstanding that I believe the training took place in Australia and the UK, you seem to acknowledge that they were employed during training. I will come back to that one later, I have more to say on this subject.
He said a delay in the paperwork was because the system was new but future transitions would be "much more seamless". "We hadn't to this time finalised an Australian contract for our cadet program," he said.
Mr Westaway said the cadets had been flying in Australia because the airline's check and training organisation was predominantly positioned here.
You want to have a New Zealand Airline and pay NZ dollars, get an AOC in New Zealand and get a Check and Training DEPARTMENT in New Zealand. As an aside, I am still suspicious about the reference to "Check and Training Organisation ".
"The other thing to keep in mind is the type of flying in New Zealand is completely different to the type of flying in Australia and you have complexities in the New Zealand aviation landscape with respect to Queenstown and Wellington flying," he said.
Simon, I was once told that "if you are going to be a liar,be a good one" you I am sorry to say are not.
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The Kelpie
Last edited by The Kelpie; 13th Mar 2011 at 09:36.
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Kelpie, great work.
Queenstown, QF has dedicate Queenstown approved crew, I believe requiring an additional sim annually, so yes this is flagged as a "challenging" port due to terrain/short/30m. Wellington doesn't have any additional restrictions, but it is short (1814m) & the wind / terrain shape can create mechanical turbulence that would make it high risk for a 200 hour cadet.
Queenstown, QF has dedicate Queenstown approved crew, I believe requiring an additional sim annually, so yes this is flagged as a "challenging" port due to terrain/short/30m. Wellington doesn't have any additional restrictions, but it is short (1814m) & the wind / terrain shape can create mechanical turbulence that would make it high risk for a 200 hour cadet.
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There is only one certainty in my mind at the moment, and that is that Jetstar have not deliberately been trying to avoid Australian IR laws. They have simply stumbled into this ridiculous situation through shear ignorance and arrogance. It was always intended that these cadet pilots would be based in New Zealand, when this was first proposed many of us raised the issue of the cadets not being able to fly in New Zealand due to the 500 hour limit. Jetstar said that this did not apply as we were flying to CASA regulations even in New Zealand. It was only when a few Captains based in NZ said that they would be unable to fly with cadet pilots in NZ due to the dodgy legal ground that Jetstar finally admitted that the 500 hour rule would apply. To remedy this they came up with the plan of a temporary basing in Australia to allow the cadets to achieve the 500 hours minimum and said that this was always the intention. Speaking to some of the cadets however this was never communicated to them. Now by doing this Jetstar have really dropped themselves in it as now they have been told that they can't do this whilst the cadets are on NZ contracts so their solution is to chuck together an OZ contract to put them on. The next hole they have dug for themselves will obviously be when all those pilots stuck up in Darwin etc start throwing their toys out of the pram due to these new pilots being offered the 'choice' bases straight out of training. What I can't believe is that the EBA pilots will be willing to fly with non-EBA pilots on normal revenue domestic sectors within Australia. They said they wouldn't do it with Jetstar NZ pilots, perhaps they need to do the same here!!
WHAT A SHAMBLES
WHAT A SHAMBLES
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Guys
Does anyone know why AIPA are dealing with this and not AFAP?
Jetstar have a cunning plan and I need help. I privately need access to an AIPA rep certainly before the Cadets sign up. If there are any on here please PM me. (Must have an official AIPA email address).
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The Kelpie
Does anyone know why AIPA are dealing with this and not AFAP?
Jetstar have a cunning plan and I need help. I privately need access to an AIPA rep certainly before the Cadets sign up. If there are any on here please PM me. (Must have an official AIPA email address).
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The Kelpie
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Originally Posted by AH
There is only one certainty in my mind at the moment, and that is that Jetstar have not deliberately been trying to avoid Australian IR laws.
Originally Posted by point76
Recently spoke to one of the current group of 4 Australian cadets about to start line training with JS .They are all from the 'advanced' cadet stream and have 500+ hours. Basically it seems they all had to sign NZ contracts and will be nominally based in CHC or AKL.They have been promised they can fly back in Oz but will have to take LWOP from Jetstar NZ and be based in Oz on a temporary contract at NZ rates!
Once again BB is treating the profession of pilot with contempt but is he trying to be too clever by far? This attitude he has to his current and future pilot group WILL come back to bite him!
Once again BB is treating the profession of pilot with contempt but is he trying to be too clever by far? This attitude he has to his current and future pilot group WILL come back to bite him!
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ABC are giving it a run as well.
Jetstar trying to avoid workplace laws, union says - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
If Queenstown and Wellington are 'an issue' for low timers, what of the other 'challenging' ports in Australia?? .. thinking narrow and/or shortish runways, topography? Seems inconsistent!
Jetstar trying to avoid workplace laws, union says - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
Jetstar trying to avoid workplace laws, union says
Posted 1 hour 26 minutes ago
The pilots union has accused airline Jetstar of training cadets overseas to avoid Australian workplace laws.
The International Pilots Association's Richard Woodward says Jetstar advertised the cadet scheme as based in New Zealand.
Mr Woodward says apart from three days in that country, they train in the UK and Australia, but are paid in New Zealand dollars.
"I think it's basically a sham, because none of these cadets spent more than three days in New Zealand ... only to do some observation flying on aeroplanes, get a bank account, and get a tax file number," he said.
"They've never been resident in New Zealand, they've always been in Australia, and they've always been flying registered aeroplanes."
Mr Woodward says they have now been stood down after finishing their training.
"We're getting a strong indication that Jetstar's going to try and give these young fellows an individual contract and most likely try and pay them under what's called the modern award, which is the minimum award conditions for a pilot in Australia," he said.
"We certainly wouldn't like to see that. We think that if you checked out as a Jetstar first officer, you're a Jetstar first officer, you should get the same pay as any other Jetstar first officer."
Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway has denied the allegations.
"Jetstar has an accredited pilot cadet training arrangement with two of the world's leading providers of pilot training, one of which is CTC group - which are a UK-based entity - which has a large training academy in Hamilton in the north island of New Zealand," he said.
"Jetstar has a large airline operation in New Zealand, our pilots, our cadet pilots will operate aircraft in New Zealand."
Posted 1 hour 26 minutes ago
The pilots union has accused airline Jetstar of training cadets overseas to avoid Australian workplace laws.
The International Pilots Association's Richard Woodward says Jetstar advertised the cadet scheme as based in New Zealand.
Mr Woodward says apart from three days in that country, they train in the UK and Australia, but are paid in New Zealand dollars.
"I think it's basically a sham, because none of these cadets spent more than three days in New Zealand ... only to do some observation flying on aeroplanes, get a bank account, and get a tax file number," he said.
"They've never been resident in New Zealand, they've always been in Australia, and they've always been flying registered aeroplanes."
Mr Woodward says they have now been stood down after finishing their training.
"We're getting a strong indication that Jetstar's going to try and give these young fellows an individual contract and most likely try and pay them under what's called the modern award, which is the minimum award conditions for a pilot in Australia," he said.
"We certainly wouldn't like to see that. We think that if you checked out as a Jetstar first officer, you're a Jetstar first officer, you should get the same pay as any other Jetstar first officer."
Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway has denied the allegations.
"Jetstar has an accredited pilot cadet training arrangement with two of the world's leading providers of pilot training, one of which is CTC group - which are a UK-based entity - which has a large training academy in Hamilton in the north island of New Zealand," he said.
"Jetstar has a large airline operation in New Zealand, our pilots, our cadet pilots will operate aircraft in New Zealand."