Merged: Joe Eakins: Brave?....or....
Nunc est bibendum
i disagree.
All keg is saying is "I told you so" with no facts to back it up!
All keg is saying is "I told you so" with no facts to back it up!
1/ IMPULSE pilots wanted to join AIPA ... but AIPA said NO
That said, most AIPA pilots were agitating for group membership.
3/EVERYONE else in the industry could see that JETSTAR was founded and funded to erode QF terms and conditions..... except QF pilots.
4/QF pilots, to this day STILL believe that QF management will "do the right thing" by them, and that JQ pay is a LONG way off.
5/JQ pilots are have been doing the right thing, by them, but have been shafted by management again, as they do not, and have not formed a UNITED BODY with any backbone..... yet.
Anyway, now that those points are clarified, back to the thread.
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Who cares who you blame for it - just focus on a bloody solution before this rubbish takes off.
The solution is here:
Parliament of Australia: Senate: Committees: Rural Affairs and Transport Committee: Pilot training and airline safety
If some of the energy that goes into the Impulse/Jetstar/Qantas/VIPA/AFAP/ VB/PB/VA/AIPA/1989/Instructing/Bush time/high wing/low wing/cadets actually went into a submission to the Senate enquiry we might actually get a result instead of some words that will disappear off the bottom of the pprune page as soon as the topic loses appeal.
Time to put pen to paper and submit to the Senate Inquiry and stop going around in circles on topics that have been done to death. Contribute something today to make a difference once and for all!
The solution is here:
Parliament of Australia: Senate: Committees: Rural Affairs and Transport Committee: Pilot training and airline safety
If some of the energy that goes into the Impulse/Jetstar/Qantas/VIPA/AFAP/ VB/PB/VA/AIPA/1989/Instructing/Bush time/high wing/low wing/cadets actually went into a submission to the Senate enquiry we might actually get a result instead of some words that will disappear off the bottom of the pprune page as soon as the topic loses appeal.
Time to put pen to paper and submit to the Senate Inquiry and stop going around in circles on topics that have been done to death. Contribute something today to make a difference once and for all!
Last edited by Mr. Hat; 12th Oct 2010 at 21:30. Reason: incorrect spelling
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Some rational, constructive input required!
Here fricking Here, Mr Hat!!!
As several have pointed out...there is nothing but folly to be found by focussing on the rear vision mirror.
Lets move forward...and find solutions.
PG
As several have pointed out...there is nothing but folly to be found by focussing on the rear vision mirror.
Lets move forward...and find solutions.
PG
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is it just me or is this our moment?
Well Jesus people we've got a Senate Enquiry into all this.
I think this is HUGELY significant don't you?
Clock is ticking, closing date approaching. Don't think for a minute "nah someone else will do it". The industry needs everyones perspective. We all have different experience and expertise.
I think this is HUGELY significant don't you?
Clock is ticking, closing date approaching. Don't think for a minute "nah someone else will do it". The industry needs everyones perspective. We all have different experience and expertise.
If only some of these bright sparks had raged against the offshoring of our textile, manufacturing, primary industry, and automotive industry, we'd all be living in an Aussie-made utopia on vast wages and great Aussie lifestyle. But you didn't give a **** that your "fresh" orange juice is imported pulp from Chile, your tight Bonds T-shirt is sweat shop stained, and you wouldn't be seen dead in an inferior locally produced car.
The public majority won't care about inferior training, safety standards, and your conditions/remuneration, as long as they can have their trip to Bali for $199.
The race to the bottom is not unique to our industry. Sadly.
The public majority won't care about inferior training, safety standards, and your conditions/remuneration, as long as they can have their trip to Bali for $199.
The race to the bottom is not unique to our industry. Sadly.
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the Mums & Dads DO care about safety...
There is no question that the general public loves cheap air fares.
Most, however (IMHO), love arriving safely, in one piece, EVEN more.
That is why this battle must be fought on the grounds of safety...Not the slide in terms, conditions and benefits...but the one thing the public DO understand and love more than cheap fares.
That is, the (almost) definite likelihood that they and their loved ones will get to the destination SAFELY and shall never have to go through the devastation of family and friends perishing in an accident that included causal factors relating to deteriorating safety standards in this country.
Should better terms and conditions come to pilots indirectly as a result of increasing safety standards...all the better.
Make no mistake, safety is the key to winning the PR war and getting the average Aussie on board with our thinking. (Management will be pulling out all stops to convince the punters otherwise!)
PG
Most, however (IMHO), love arriving safely, in one piece, EVEN more.
That is why this battle must be fought on the grounds of safety...Not the slide in terms, conditions and benefits...but the one thing the public DO understand and love more than cheap fares.
That is, the (almost) definite likelihood that they and their loved ones will get to the destination SAFELY and shall never have to go through the devastation of family and friends perishing in an accident that included causal factors relating to deteriorating safety standards in this country.
Should better terms and conditions come to pilots indirectly as a result of increasing safety standards...all the better.
Make no mistake, safety is the key to winning the PR war and getting the average Aussie on board with our thinking. (Management will be pulling out all stops to convince the punters otherwise!)
PG
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Autobrakes 4
May i suggest that you get your facts straight about JQ pilots membership within AIPA before posting such misguided rubbish.
I can tell you that at the time that Impulse was being formed, a group of senior Impulse pilots approached the president of AIPA,seeking information about potential membership and coverage of Impulse pilots by AIPA.
The rules at the time precluded AIPA from offering membership. It was as a result of this meeting that the Impulse Pilots Council was formed.
As many now know, years later, AIPA took legal action and won the right of coverage of what now had become JQ pilots.
Your suggestion that the Impulse/Jetstar pilots chose not to join and are now running with their tails between their legs to join is fiction.
Why do i know this to be fact? Simply because i was the one who put the idea of membership forward to these Impulse pilots at the time.
The rest is history.
May i suggest that you get your facts straight about JQ pilots membership within AIPA before posting such misguided rubbish.
I can tell you that at the time that Impulse was being formed, a group of senior Impulse pilots approached the president of AIPA,seeking information about potential membership and coverage of Impulse pilots by AIPA.
The rules at the time precluded AIPA from offering membership. It was as a result of this meeting that the Impulse Pilots Council was formed.
As many now know, years later, AIPA took legal action and won the right of coverage of what now had become JQ pilots.
Your suggestion that the Impulse/Jetstar pilots chose not to join and are now running with their tails between their legs to join is fiction.
Why do i know this to be fact? Simply because i was the one who put the idea of membership forward to these Impulse pilots at the time.
The rest is history.
Bottums Up
The only chance for pilots to have a hand in maintaining Ts&Cs is for the various industrial organisations to put aside long held enmity and become united. Then we might stand a chance.
I'm just waiting for
to stop at my place and collect me, enroute to the meeting. 
I'm just waiting for
to stop at my place and collect me, enroute to the meeting.
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Spot on Claret.
Is the obivious essential prerequisite to any journey down the road to Damascus.
Without it, all concerned will rightly conclude that Australia’s pilots and their respective associations don’t have what it takes.
When the flying pigs drop by to pick you up. Please ask them to leave room in the chariot for me.
Various industrial organisations puting aside long held enmity and becoming united.
Without it, all concerned will rightly conclude that Australia’s pilots and their respective associations don’t have what it takes.
When the flying pigs drop by to pick you up. Please ask them to leave room in the chariot for me.
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IT'S ALREADY TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO LATE MATE.
YOU CAN DREAM ALL YOU LIKE BUT IT'S TOO LATE. IT WAS TOO LATE 9 YEARS AGO WHEN QF SHUT DOWN SAA AND BOUGHT OUT IMPULSE. THAT IS WHEN IT ALL BEGAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And as for pilot unity, sorry I just can't stop rolling on the floor in laughter unfortunately.
However, Hat and popgun and co, I like your enthusiasm but you are on a hiding to nothing.
YOU CAN DREAM ALL YOU LIKE BUT IT'S TOO LATE. IT WAS TOO LATE 9 YEARS AGO WHEN QF SHUT DOWN SAA AND BOUGHT OUT IMPULSE. THAT IS WHEN IT ALL BEGAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And as for pilot unity, sorry I just can't stop rolling on the floor in laughter unfortunately.
However, Hat and popgun and co, I like your enthusiasm but you are on a hiding to nothing.
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Bollocks - just give up and die then?
What nonsense.
Supply and Demand for the first time in a very long while is in OUR favour. The final ingredient is enhanced pilot unity and anything is achievable.
Don't like quitters and don't agree with Normasars' opinion or resigned acceptance of the push to supress T&C's even further.
Joe Eakins attitude and drive is exactly what's needed. The previous post exactly NOT
What nonsense.
Supply and Demand for the first time in a very long while is in OUR favour. The final ingredient is enhanced pilot unity and anything is achievable.
Don't like quitters and don't agree with Normasars' opinion or resigned acceptance of the push to supress T&C's even further.
Joe Eakins attitude and drive is exactly what's needed. The previous post exactly NOT
Normasars, please don't actively try to derail this push for unity. If you feel we are wasting our time, it should be no concern of yours.
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GFR et al,
I have been around in this industry long enough to be a realist padre. Bang on all you like about PILOT UNITY "MATE" , but it will NEVER, repeat just for you, NEVER, happen. Call me what you want/like but I am a realist and I KNOW it will never happen. It saddens me too, but I can admit when the truth is undeniable. And by the way , you know it too deep down.
And BTW, I am not trying to "derail" as you put it. Just being a realist.
ALR, please tell me where is this pilot shortage that you are eluding to? Supply and demand?? WTF. You are in a different world to me mate. From where I sit, there is a pile of CV's 100 deep applying for a gig, whether it be jet or turboprop. And if you look around this forum there are GA guys with 1000s of hrs applying to the airlines and can't get a look in. So don't bullshyte yourself that there is some kind of pilot shortage out there. As was mentioned in a previous thread, be very careful not to manipulate this offshoring of T&Cs into "safety" as this keeps drifting too. And lets be brutally honest here. That is what this is all about, protecting the T&Cs that JQ drivers undercut the incumbents on.
I know that you can't move forward looking in the rear view mirror, but please don't anybody say the past has no relevance here. If the guy that has been screwing your wife says sorry mate, I am now asking you for your support, will you help me out, I know what I would say. But heh?? I am only human. You guys are kidding yourselves. Pilot unity, you are dreaming.
Not a pragmatist, just a realist Sorry.
I have been around in this industry long enough to be a realist padre. Bang on all you like about PILOT UNITY "MATE" , but it will NEVER, repeat just for you, NEVER, happen. Call me what you want/like but I am a realist and I KNOW it will never happen. It saddens me too, but I can admit when the truth is undeniable. And by the way , you know it too deep down.
And BTW, I am not trying to "derail" as you put it. Just being a realist.
ALR, please tell me where is this pilot shortage that you are eluding to? Supply and demand?? WTF. You are in a different world to me mate. From where I sit, there is a pile of CV's 100 deep applying for a gig, whether it be jet or turboprop. And if you look around this forum there are GA guys with 1000s of hrs applying to the airlines and can't get a look in. So don't bullshyte yourself that there is some kind of pilot shortage out there. As was mentioned in a previous thread, be very careful not to manipulate this offshoring of T&Cs into "safety" as this keeps drifting too. And lets be brutally honest here. That is what this is all about, protecting the T&Cs that JQ drivers undercut the incumbents on.
I know that you can't move forward looking in the rear view mirror, but please don't anybody say the past has no relevance here. If the guy that has been screwing your wife says sorry mate, I am now asking you for your support, will you help me out, I know what I would say. But heh?? I am only human. You guys are kidding yourselves. Pilot unity, you are dreaming.
Not a pragmatist, just a realist Sorry.
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Jeez Normasars, you're unreal.
Remind me not to go to war with a bloke like you. You are correct, pilot unity with people like you IS impossible. Your opinions however are just that, that doesn't make you an oracle and those opinions 'reality'.
I too have been around for many years and know nothing is impossible. From where I sit in Asia, prior to the GFC we couldn't get pilots here of anywhere near the standard we were used to. There might be 100's of CV's but none of them worth anything. This scenario is starting to reappear and will only become greater with so many aircraft on order and dwindling supplies of qualified pilots to fly them. That wasn't 'bullshyte' Einstein that was fact.
And as an aside to AJ's comment of Australian pilots living in cuckoo land about Asian salaries, aircrew in my airline are paid about twice what the average J* pilot gets.
And another of your points, I personally am not affected by what a J* pilot is paid but I do not want to see the smoking heap in the ground that is a far more likely scenario if we insist on bypassing the standards inherent in the Australian training system. And why the hell shouldn't this thread 'drift into a discussion of offshoring jobs and the threat that poses to safety? I
I don't like slanging matches on PPRuNe but I despise snide, naysaying quitters who try to sway others by hiding behind the smokescreen of being 'realists'.
Perhaps foolishly I have historically looked at my colleagues almost as family but when I occasionally come across attitudes like those I do hang my head in shame.
Remind me not to go to war with a bloke like you. You are correct, pilot unity with people like you IS impossible. Your opinions however are just that, that doesn't make you an oracle and those opinions 'reality'.
I too have been around for many years and know nothing is impossible. From where I sit in Asia, prior to the GFC we couldn't get pilots here of anywhere near the standard we were used to. There might be 100's of CV's but none of them worth anything. This scenario is starting to reappear and will only become greater with so many aircraft on order and dwindling supplies of qualified pilots to fly them. That wasn't 'bullshyte' Einstein that was fact.
And as an aside to AJ's comment of Australian pilots living in cuckoo land about Asian salaries, aircrew in my airline are paid about twice what the average J* pilot gets.
And another of your points, I personally am not affected by what a J* pilot is paid but I do not want to see the smoking heap in the ground that is a far more likely scenario if we insist on bypassing the standards inherent in the Australian training system. And why the hell shouldn't this thread 'drift into a discussion of offshoring jobs and the threat that poses to safety? I
I don't like slanging matches on PPRuNe but I despise snide, naysaying quitters who try to sway others by hiding behind the smokescreen of being 'realists'.
Perhaps foolishly I have historically looked at my colleagues almost as family but when I occasionally come across attitudes like those I do hang my head in shame.
I've often likened aviation to the medical profession for some reason. There is a significant difference however. With a quota system and hurdles for entry, it is not possible to 'buy' your medical degree whereas it is your ATPL. Seems to me that one solution to the relentless downward pressure on conditions would be to set the 'bar' somewhere and make flying training less accessible. (unfortunately)
If a Pilot Organisation (think AMA) were to control of the numbers and standards of pilots produced in Australia, it could be the first step in controlling the erosion of pay and conditions.
If a Pilot Organisation (think AMA) were to control of the numbers and standards of pilots produced in Australia, it could be the first step in controlling the erosion of pay and conditions.
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The formation of a single Pilots Association will silence the critics and build momentum critical to successfully upholding professional standards for pilots.
On the other hand, given the media coverage of the ‘All Pilot Meetings” and the Senate Inquiry instituted in response thereto, obvious failure to now create a visible public symbol of effective unification will simply confirm what Normasars has to say.
On the other hand, given the media coverage of the ‘All Pilot Meetings” and the Senate Inquiry instituted in response thereto, obvious failure to now create a visible public symbol of effective unification will simply confirm what Normasars has to say.
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Wooden eye is right about the "single" pilot union.
But an Australian ALPA umbrella organisation has to have within itself an executive management structure that has the same logistical capacity as (for example) BALPA in the UK.
Companies such as Jetstar would have to work a lot harder if they are dealing with professional negotiators from a totally independent organisation rather than its' own pilots.
The way things are now, I can't help but feel we are notoriously incapable of negotiating our own future.
An active and effective AUS ALPA as the ONLY representative body, with company sub groups under it, will be our best option.
The problem with AIPA as a QF denominated union, is that it has too many question marks over it to be considered an "independent" negotiator for other pilot groups.
Would AIPA readily be prepared to sit underneath an effective and well resourced AUS ALPA - who knows ??
But an Australian ALPA umbrella organisation has to have within itself an executive management structure that has the same logistical capacity as (for example) BALPA in the UK.
Companies such as Jetstar would have to work a lot harder if they are dealing with professional negotiators from a totally independent organisation rather than its' own pilots.
The way things are now, I can't help but feel we are notoriously incapable of negotiating our own future.
An active and effective AUS ALPA as the ONLY representative body, with company sub groups under it, will be our best option.
The problem with AIPA as a QF denominated union, is that it has too many question marks over it to be considered an "independent" negotiator for other pilot groups.
Would AIPA readily be prepared to sit underneath an effective and well resourced AUS ALPA - who knows ??
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The problem with AIPA as a QF denominated union, is that it has too many question marks over it to be considered an "independent" negotiator for other pilot groups.
AIPA and its QF pilots have as much vested interest in this as everyone else. AIPA demonstate they know this by hosting these pilot meetings, and by the disproportionate amount of money they have spent on the JQ pilot group recently.
Afterall, when you've got the best contract in this part of the world, there's only one direction things can go.