Qf LAME EBA Negotiations Begin
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I think you'll find Jetstar are very happy with the JH A330 checks.
My guess is that it's been outsourced so when the mothership worker bees spit the dummy the low cost saviour doesn't completely shut down too..
Keep digging lads!
Chopper you missed my point.The decision given by Qantas was that JH were cheaper.I still cant work out how that is the case.All I can see is money that once stayed within the group now goes to JH.
Please explain how the shareholders have benefited by this exercise.
My guess is that it's been outsourced so when the mothership worker bees spit the dummy the low cost saviour doesn't completely shut down too..
Keep digging lads!
Chopper you missed my point.The decision given by Qantas was that JH were cheaper.I still cant work out how that is the case.All I can see is money that once stayed within the group now goes to JH.
Please explain how the shareholders have benefited by this exercise.
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I think you'll find Jetstar are very happy with the JH A330 checks.
THE CHOPPER.
Chopper you have to be an idiot if you think Jetstar and even Virgin are happy with the builders.
IT is a fact that Jetstar have had to send there own LAME's down to Melbourne to help with the 330 checks,engine changes etc,all done on o/t,allowances,hotel costs,pritty sure these expenses are added to engineering costs not added to JH,carpet broom I think you will find.
Most of the guys who have gone are all ex QF lames trying to help there new employer,but even these guys have just about had enough.Back in DEC,nearly 20 staff from NTL were sent down to get a 320 out of a C chk,
JH can't keep employees,as soon as a better job offer comes they are gone,The lastest 457 boys had a lot of problems with passing AA,
I think you will also find that once VA builds the hangar in SYD that there A330 work will come back in house,so happy I don't think so
THE CHOPPER.
Chopper you have to be an idiot if you think Jetstar and even Virgin are happy with the builders.
IT is a fact that Jetstar have had to send there own LAME's down to Melbourne to help with the 330 checks,engine changes etc,all done on o/t,allowances,hotel costs,pritty sure these expenses are added to engineering costs not added to JH,carpet broom I think you will find.
Most of the guys who have gone are all ex QF lames trying to help there new employer,but even these guys have just about had enough.Back in DEC,nearly 20 staff from NTL were sent down to get a 320 out of a C chk,
JH can't keep employees,as soon as a better job offer comes they are gone,The lastest 457 boys had a lot of problems with passing AA,
I think you will also find that once VA builds the hangar in SYD that there A330 work will come back in house,so happy I don't think so
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And here we go !
JOB VACANCY - B747-400 LAME Fixed Term .
SEEK - JOB VACANCY - B747-400 LAME Fixed Term Job in Geelong & Great Ocean Road
SEEK - JOB VACANCY - B747-400 LAME Fixed Term Job in Geelong & Great Ocean Road
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Originally Posted by lame1
Romulus,
Being just a LAME im probably not as smart as you but I would like you to explain the merit and financial gain to the Qantas group by outsourcing the Jetstar A330's to JH .This fuction was being carried out by QF mainline with excellent turn times and manpower levels.The new arrangments see the cost to maintain these birds go outside the group.I believe its a perfect example of waste to the shareholder.Its also interesting to note that JH dont have the capability to carryout all the necessary checks.Engine washes are just one example.Also JH have a acute shortage of licence coverage and tooling to handle the A/C.
Being just a LAME im probably not as smart as you but I would like you to explain the merit and financial gain to the Qantas group by outsourcing the Jetstar A330's to JH .This fuction was being carried out by QF mainline with excellent turn times and manpower levels.The new arrangments see the cost to maintain these birds go outside the group.I believe its a perfect example of waste to the shareholder.Its also interesting to note that JH dont have the capability to carryout all the necessary checks.Engine washes are just one example.Also JH have a acute shortage of licence coverage and tooling to handle the A/C.
As for outsourcing the 330s the most logical reason would be that when you look to the future the 787 will require all of QF mainline. But that's just logical. It may well be that the decision is political. As I've previously said, don't fight the previous war because then teh enemy will flog you. That's a lesson of history that is so often repeated it isn't funny.
In my opinion QF have learned. The 330 outsourcing is a message, and not a very expensive one at that. Nor very subtle.
It's been a fair while since I was at JHAS but what they always needed to help drive their pricing down, as most businesses do, was volume to spread overheads across. JHAS has some advantages and some disadvantages, the lack of their own fleet being the most obvious. In order to get competitive tension in the market QF need a capable JHAS whilst not depending on them entirely for eng services.
Engine washes, licences and tooling I can't comment on, I have no idea what the current situation is.
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Originally Posted by ampclamp
Romulus. They run the show.If they showed an ounce of balls and honesty they would approach us for ideas and open up genuine talks with the guys on how to get a compromise . Their tactics are and always have been confrontational. That is a very difficult place to hold negotiations. It takes a leader to sort this out. Qantas has none in its executive ranks, not one. All bosses all clones no leaders.
Joyce blew it when he called us kamikazes and was less than completely honest about our claims.
Joyce blew it when he called us kamikazes and was less than completely honest about our claims.
Note that I'm not saying to trust QF management, in your position I wouldn't either. Somewhere recently I have said that to solve what ails QF Eng (and yes, you do have issues as does any organisation) will take a fundamental shift in mindset and I'm used to that being led by management. Most people are fundamentally easy to manage, it starts with being honest, setting a direction and simply telling it how it is without spin. A lot of the time that message isn't palatable, it takes real guts to manage that way because everyone hates you. But it is the only way I have ever seen work to build trust. I don't think anyone at JHAS would say I was their friend, but nobody there could ever say I lied to them because, quite simply, I didn't. And there were some pretty hard messages in what I told people, but it was always told up front and without crap. A lot of the guys thought I was a ******** at first, undoubtedly there are some who still do. But most of them would hopefully say I never led them astray (at least not deliberately), I was always up front, and I always felt that when I asked them for something they gave it to me not because of my then position but because they knew I was asking for a reason and not to jerk them around. But that reputation had to be earned. It's not easy having everyone think you're a ********, it takes a very very thick skin to get through it.
Sooner or later that's what QF management will have to do. What I really really suggest you guys do is keep your eyes and ears open and listen and observe and when the change in behaviour comes give it some encouragement. The natural tendency is to take the "F**k you" response, that will ultimately get you nowhere. I'm not saying to give in now, what I'm saying is that if you can help QF management find the way to start the positive circle then you can rebuild a far more positive environment and level of job security.
Some may say I look through rose coloured glasses, so be it. My response to that is to say if the world is as bleak as some would have it then for the sake of your own sanity get out.
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Originally Posted by jetsbest
At the risk of interjecting on a LAME thread.... (forgive me)
Your points are all very logical until one faces management who;
- acknowledge that its pilots are some of the most experienced in the world,
- already use 'world's best practice' (ie the most 2nd Officers) for the longhaul flying done,
- acknowledge that, were it not for the skills of the crews involved (eg A330 QF72, 747 QF30 & A380 QF32), QF may have had far worse outcomes,
- will acknowledge that its pilots aren't the most expensive compared to similar airlines,
- agree on numerous efficiencies the pilots have identified,
- make marketing pitches, spoken by movie stars, like "there's no one I'd rather have up front than a Qantas pilot"...
AND YET... despite past-practice in QF, and 'job security' clauses in present Jetconnect, Lufthansa and many other successful & reputable airlines...
- absolutely REFUSE to allay QF pilot & engineer concerns that it intends to set-up even more off-shoring,
- denigrates its own employees in public forums (kamikazes? "what planet are they on?"),
- intentionally & grossly misrepresents facts to media outlets (26%, QF mainline is still recruiting, QF pilots average $350k/year, no QF pilots have been made redundant in 40 years but omitting that plenty took BIG voluntary work/pay cuts specifically to avoid QF-threatened retrenchments etc)
- seem to be doing more brand damage by their negative statements than any employees could, and
- allocates mainline-derived profits to varied other ventures and then infers that mainline is the problem!
Employees are exasperated! There is NO trust in anything management says. There is NO sense of management integrity. Managers have lost the mantle of 'leadership' and are apparently resorting to principles more akin to kindergarten discipline in the absence of any real credibility. It IS NOT working at the coal-face; it's resented ever more with each new attempt to discredit the people with the most to lose; the long-term employees!
Romulus, how would you deal with that climate?
Your points are all very logical until one faces management who;
- acknowledge that its pilots are some of the most experienced in the world,
- already use 'world's best practice' (ie the most 2nd Officers) for the longhaul flying done,
- acknowledge that, were it not for the skills of the crews involved (eg A330 QF72, 747 QF30 & A380 QF32), QF may have had far worse outcomes,
- will acknowledge that its pilots aren't the most expensive compared to similar airlines,
- agree on numerous efficiencies the pilots have identified,
- make marketing pitches, spoken by movie stars, like "there's no one I'd rather have up front than a Qantas pilot"...
AND YET... despite past-practice in QF, and 'job security' clauses in present Jetconnect, Lufthansa and many other successful & reputable airlines...
- absolutely REFUSE to allay QF pilot & engineer concerns that it intends to set-up even more off-shoring,
- denigrates its own employees in public forums (kamikazes? "what planet are they on?"),
- intentionally & grossly misrepresents facts to media outlets (26%, QF mainline is still recruiting, QF pilots average $350k/year, no QF pilots have been made redundant in 40 years but omitting that plenty took BIG voluntary work/pay cuts specifically to avoid QF-threatened retrenchments etc)
- seem to be doing more brand damage by their negative statements than any employees could, and
- allocates mainline-derived profits to varied other ventures and then infers that mainline is the problem!
Employees are exasperated! There is NO trust in anything management says. There is NO sense of management integrity. Managers have lost the mantle of 'leadership' and are apparently resorting to principles more akin to kindergarten discipline in the absence of any real credibility. It IS NOT working at the coal-face; it's resented ever more with each new attempt to discredit the people with the most to lose; the long-term employees!
Romulus, how would you deal with that climate?
The thing I absolutely detest about the way this dispute is being handled is the denigration of the people. It's just plain wrong and leads to all sorts of problems, many of which are now manifesting.
At the risk of taking a slight detour look at Kenny Dalglish at Liverpool. He took over Benitez's squad and immediately stopped carping about buying better players, he worked with his team, trusted in them and hings changed very quickly. Self confidence is a funny thing and can be very resilient, even when battered it will bounce back pretty quickly provided the conditions are genuinely provided.
I also detest the use of lies. If it IS 26% and $350K then release the genuine figures to show it (not to an individual level of course but if you have a pilot wages bill of $350,000,000 and 1000 pilots then say so) and go from there.
The best way for that to be handled is for QF management to change it, be under no misconceptions that is my belief.
Equally from your perspective you need to overcome a massive hurdle - pilots are overpaid pretty boys who shag hosties in glamourous locations. A usual case of the minority casuign problems for the majority, especially when it is fed into the mainstream via Hollywood etc.
First step for pilots, in my opinion, would be the PR. "Hi, I'm Barry and I'm a Qantas captain" is far more likely to resonate and engage than "I'm Captain Barry Smith". We're Australian after all. And from there focus on teh facts. You pay $X thousand out of your own pocket to get trained, you build Y hours in dusty parts of the world just to build hours etc etc etc before you can even get close to a QF job. And then you start on whatever the entry pay scale is.
Clean, simple facts. That anybody who knows knows support your case.
With regard to your management I don't really know enough to comment, I've heard enough poison dripping when I've been in airports to know something is amiss, I'd go back to my basic principle of demonstrating value - how do you minimise fuel burn, late departures etc etc that goes beyond teh call of second tier pilots.
The safety card is *NOT* a winner because that is *EXPECTED*.
I have no real idea what makes for super efficient pilot opeations, but figure that out and you figure out where you need to get management's attention.
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Romulus, thanks for the reply.
Romulus:
Agree 100%.
The thing I absolutely detest about the way this dispute is being handled is the denigration of the people. It's just plain wrong and leads to all sorts of problems, many of which are now manifesting.
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Romulus, a little further insight into the lunatic-in-charge of the Qantas assylumn..................
Qantas CEO continues to downtalk the brand and reverse the realities
June 7, 2011 – 7:55 am, by Ben Sandilands
Qantas is making a dismal spectacle of itself at the IATA conference at Singapore.
In this morning’s reports by invited and hosted media the group’s CEO, Alan Joyce, says he is not going to spend any more money on “the premium international operation until they (start) to return their cost of capital” (SMH) and will “reconsider new aircraft orders” (The Australian.)
In these reports he also signals a new communications strategy from Qantas to rubbish its own core brand, by describing Jetstar and the frequent flyer program as subsidising the full service operation.
This is a reversal of the realities of massive subsidies or transfers of assets from Qantas to Jetstar, which if these inputs were truthfully detailed, would show a very different situation in terms of the relative performances of the punitive Jetstar experience and the premium Qantas divisions.
There are also inconsistencies in what Joyce is reported to have said. While he claims to be reconsidering new orders and is not injecting new funds into the international Qantas division, he is still taking all of the undelivered A380 order, which if true means they are suddenly ‘free’.
These statements seem to belong to the same genre as those claiming the pilot union agreement for a 2.5 percent pay rise per annum over three years equals an unsustainable 26 percent cost impost. The only thing unsustainable about this is the arithmetic. The only way to get anywhere near 26 percent is to count recurring costs that are already present as a continuing cost of doing business, and have nothing to do with base pay.
This claim by management is about as credible as its submission to the Senate inquiry into pilot training and airline safety, in which Joyce failed to acknowledge that the reason why a Jetstar A320 nearly crashed at Melbourne Airport in 2007 was the result of improper changes to the approved flight manual procedure for flying a ‘go around’ and that he was the then CEO of that airline and responsible for the inferior and deeply flawed decisions taken by the carrier.
The burning questions this morning are why Joyce would slam his own premium brand and verbal its pilots and engineers at the leading international forum for airline managements only hours after the Qantas share price out-plunged the general retreat on the ASX?
Why does he rubbish the premium product which has been his responsibility for two years? Why does it describe its engineering and pilot unions as ‘rogue’ when their actions to date are lawful and fully within the prescriptions of Fair Work Australia, and are a consequence of an inability of management to secure a timely resolution of expiring industrial agreements.
One of the obvious reasons why the Qantas premium product is in trouble is that it isn’t competitively premium, which is his responsibility, and has a route structure which is variously inefficient or impracticable for many of the travellers that have crossed over to Emirates and Singapore Airlines, which is also his responsibility.
The latest act of management genius is a low frequency, range challenged flight to Dalls Fort Worth in a jet that can’t do the distance reliably, adds extra stops along the route for some passengers, and occasionally deprives them of their checked luggage as well as offering them a cabin amenity inferior to that on Qantas A380s.
Qantas may get soft media in Australia, and a soft ride from those who are indulged with free entry to the Chairmans Lounges. But Joyce is in a room in Singapore where has competitors can see right through him, and must wonder how much longer the airline will continue to provide them with easy pickings.
June 7, 2011 – 7:55 am, by Ben Sandilands
Qantas is making a dismal spectacle of itself at the IATA conference at Singapore.
In this morning’s reports by invited and hosted media the group’s CEO, Alan Joyce, says he is not going to spend any more money on “the premium international operation until they (start) to return their cost of capital” (SMH) and will “reconsider new aircraft orders” (The Australian.)
In these reports he also signals a new communications strategy from Qantas to rubbish its own core brand, by describing Jetstar and the frequent flyer program as subsidising the full service operation.
This is a reversal of the realities of massive subsidies or transfers of assets from Qantas to Jetstar, which if these inputs were truthfully detailed, would show a very different situation in terms of the relative performances of the punitive Jetstar experience and the premium Qantas divisions.
There are also inconsistencies in what Joyce is reported to have said. While he claims to be reconsidering new orders and is not injecting new funds into the international Qantas division, he is still taking all of the undelivered A380 order, which if true means they are suddenly ‘free’.
These statements seem to belong to the same genre as those claiming the pilot union agreement for a 2.5 percent pay rise per annum over three years equals an unsustainable 26 percent cost impost. The only thing unsustainable about this is the arithmetic. The only way to get anywhere near 26 percent is to count recurring costs that are already present as a continuing cost of doing business, and have nothing to do with base pay.
This claim by management is about as credible as its submission to the Senate inquiry into pilot training and airline safety, in which Joyce failed to acknowledge that the reason why a Jetstar A320 nearly crashed at Melbourne Airport in 2007 was the result of improper changes to the approved flight manual procedure for flying a ‘go around’ and that he was the then CEO of that airline and responsible for the inferior and deeply flawed decisions taken by the carrier.
The burning questions this morning are why Joyce would slam his own premium brand and verbal its pilots and engineers at the leading international forum for airline managements only hours after the Qantas share price out-plunged the general retreat on the ASX?
Why does he rubbish the premium product which has been his responsibility for two years? Why does it describe its engineering and pilot unions as ‘rogue’ when their actions to date are lawful and fully within the prescriptions of Fair Work Australia, and are a consequence of an inability of management to secure a timely resolution of expiring industrial agreements.
One of the obvious reasons why the Qantas premium product is in trouble is that it isn’t competitively premium, which is his responsibility, and has a route structure which is variously inefficient or impracticable for many of the travellers that have crossed over to Emirates and Singapore Airlines, which is also his responsibility.
The latest act of management genius is a low frequency, range challenged flight to Dalls Fort Worth in a jet that can’t do the distance reliably, adds extra stops along the route for some passengers, and occasionally deprives them of their checked luggage as well as offering them a cabin amenity inferior to that on Qantas A380s.
Qantas may get soft media in Australia, and a soft ride from those who are indulged with free entry to the Chairmans Lounges. But Joyce is in a room in Singapore where has competitors can see right through him, and must wonder how much longer the airline will continue to provide them with easy pickings.
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News Flash: SQ-Virgin Australia tie up
Just heard on the radio: SQ & Virgin Australia to code-share on over 30 flights, pending approval by ACCC.
Not only is Qantas standing still while the world races ahead, but the CEO is talking the company down.
He's not going to spend money on the premium product? Oh dear. Yet one more aspect of the mainline flying business - the part where the profits are - that will be left to wither on the vine.
What hope is there when managers would rather "save" a dollar than spend one to make two?
Such a pity. Borghetti understood this principle. Romulus, Sunfish et al: am I missing something? 
The other question for institutional investors and interested journalists is: what is the true extent of cross-subsidisation of the mainline and JQ? Maintenance, engineering/operational/managerial support, supply chain, ground equipment, hangar space, ticketing... To what extent is the JQ cuckoo chick outgrowing the ability of the mainline parent to feed it. How long before the hungry chick eats the parent?
Not only is Qantas standing still while the world races ahead, but the CEO is talking the company down.
He's not going to spend money on the premium product? Oh dear. Yet one more aspect of the mainline flying business - the part where the profits are - that will be left to wither on the vine.
What hope is there when managers would rather "save" a dollar than spend one to make two?
Such a pity. Borghetti understood this principle. Romulus, Sunfish et al: am I missing something? The other question for institutional investors and interested journalists is: what is the true extent of cross-subsidisation of the mainline and JQ? Maintenance, engineering/operational/managerial support, supply chain, ground equipment, hangar space, ticketing... To what extent is the JQ cuckoo chick outgrowing the ability of the mainline parent to feed it. How long before the hungry chick eats the parent?
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Chock, whoever is running the comms strategy for QF is operating from the Dilbert zone, no question. The message in that and other speeches is moronic IMNSHO. I'm quite happy to say some things need to change at QF Engineering, I doubt anyone denies that except the gravy train riders.
But I have yet to see, anywhere in the world, any genuine evidence that abuse leads to anything positive. You can browbeat people to an extent, but sooner or later they'll kick back and that's never pleasant.
Given QF management's love of MBO (management buy out) strategies maybe QF Engineering should consider a buyout of their own. Make it a genuinely outsourced operation competing directly with the other MROs free from QF central managemtn interference.
But I have yet to see, anywhere in the world, any genuine evidence that abuse leads to anything positive. You can browbeat people to an extent, but sooner or later they'll kick back and that's never pleasant.
Given QF management's love of MBO (management buy out) strategies maybe QF Engineering should consider a buyout of their own. Make it a genuinely outsourced operation competing directly with the other MROs free from QF central managemtn interference.
Romulus:
But...but.. then the QF engineering management would have no one to torture and denigrate.
Given QF management's love of MBO (management buy out) strategies maybe QF Engineering should consider a buyout of their own. Make it a genuinely outsourced operation competing directly with the other MROs free from QF central management interference.
But...but.. then the QF engineering management would have no one to torture and denigrate.
Joyce seems to me to have lost any self control. It leads me to think his time in the trough is limited and he knows it.
Seems indicative Execo have no strategy or road plan ahead.
Direction-less comes to mind.
This outburst reminded me of the last days of MH, 2 years ago.
Seems indicative Execo have no strategy or road plan ahead.
Direction-less comes to mind.
This outburst reminded me of the last days of MH, 2 years ago.
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Dont forget the 737CL guys who started a couple of months ago, and also the currently advertised 747-400 jobs....all on short term contract. Are Forstaff expecting a sudden influx of work over the next 6 months???
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Isn't saying something to the detriment of the Qantas brand against Qantas policy?
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The quick resolution of the Forstaff EBA was never about the reconfig work. I suspect it was about preventing the possibility of the workforce there also being able to take industrial action while the qantas EA was being battled out. Expect aircraft to go to Avalon if the need arises when/if things get nasty.