Virgin Blue A330 Jobs
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OK Hat so you just lie down like a a simpering dog, snivelling after crumbs and licking the feet of your masters - the future as cowering lapdogs inevitable.
What hope is there with such resigned defeatism?
This defeatism is not only embarrassingly wimpy its (finally) unrealistic. For the first time in ages we are empowered by circumstance.
No less than the US Congress has prevented your 'import 200 hour kids from impoverished countries' option because of the results (Colgan crash: and they weren't poorly trained imports, they were inexperienced locals).
J* will try to do this (or variations thereof) but with US Congress ratifying what we all know (low-hour, poorly trained pilots are a death-wish) we have a powerful precedent with which to lobby the Government and the Media.
But without the cohones to take on this battle in the first place (the defeatist resignation exhibited here) we may as well forget any damn improvements.
What hope is there with such resigned defeatism?
This defeatism is not only embarrassingly wimpy its (finally) unrealistic. For the first time in ages we are empowered by circumstance.
No less than the US Congress has prevented your 'import 200 hour kids from impoverished countries' option because of the results (Colgan crash: and they weren't poorly trained imports, they were inexperienced locals).
J* will try to do this (or variations thereof) but with US Congress ratifying what we all know (low-hour, poorly trained pilots are a death-wish) we have a powerful precedent with which to lobby the Government and the Media.
But without the cohones to take on this battle in the first place (the defeatist resignation exhibited here) we may as well forget any damn improvements.
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There is an aspect here that hasn't been recognised which limits the power of pilots even as a group.
Market forces dictate that wages are only high where the barriers to entry are high. In the past the barrier to entry has quite obviously been hours on aircraft type. Airlines have a power here that pilots do not.
They can lower the barriers to entry in two ways...
1. Lowering their hiring standards to the lowest levels allowed by regulation. Offshoring bases to more favourably regulated environments.
2. Provide easier access to training to meet the standard.
Both of which are now rearing their heads. What power does a pilot or even a pilot group have to influence the barriers to entry? None. If a pilot shortage ever does occur it will be short lived and airline management have the foresight to stem this off with their cadet schemes. When you make it easier for a newbie to enter the profession you lower the cost of the employee. In the 70's no such easy access to training existed and that is the fundamental difference in the power dynamic between then and now.
Your only real hope is not through wishing and hoping other pilots don't ruin it for you, but to lobby the regulators to keep the standards required high. Forget industrial action and some vain hope in a pilot shortage. Create a group and hire lawyers to protect your interests through law and protecting the public interest. It is the way of the world now.
Market forces dictate that wages are only high where the barriers to entry are high. In the past the barrier to entry has quite obviously been hours on aircraft type. Airlines have a power here that pilots do not.
They can lower the barriers to entry in two ways...
1. Lowering their hiring standards to the lowest levels allowed by regulation. Offshoring bases to more favourably regulated environments.
2. Provide easier access to training to meet the standard.
Both of which are now rearing their heads. What power does a pilot or even a pilot group have to influence the barriers to entry? None. If a pilot shortage ever does occur it will be short lived and airline management have the foresight to stem this off with their cadet schemes. When you make it easier for a newbie to enter the profession you lower the cost of the employee. In the 70's no such easy access to training existed and that is the fundamental difference in the power dynamic between then and now.
Your only real hope is not through wishing and hoping other pilots don't ruin it for you, but to lobby the regulators to keep the standards required high. Forget industrial action and some vain hope in a pilot shortage. Create a group and hire lawyers to protect your interests through law and protecting the public interest. It is the way of the world now.
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I’m with Mr Hat.
Almost every Airline now has a ‘Cadetship’ or some other scheme which allows them to hire bare CPL holders. This was a very deliberate move after Airlines were given a small taste of what a shortage might mean for them three years ago. If there ever was a severe shortage, Jetstar et al probably would cover the full non ‘HEXable’ portion of their new cadetship well before voluntarily improving conditions for all.
The trend can be reversed, but it will take brains, resources and persistence. Any shortage should just be a bonus.
Well said.
Almost every Airline now has a ‘Cadetship’ or some other scheme which allows them to hire bare CPL holders. This was a very deliberate move after Airlines were given a small taste of what a shortage might mean for them three years ago. If there ever was a severe shortage, Jetstar et al probably would cover the full non ‘HEXable’ portion of their new cadetship well before voluntarily improving conditions for all.
The trend can be reversed, but it will take brains, resources and persistence. Any shortage should just be a bonus.
J* will try to do this (or variations thereof) but with US Congress ratifying what we all know (low-hour, poorly trained pilots are a death-wish) we have a powerful precedent with which to lobby the Government and the Media.
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Gnadenburg and LeRhone, you're talking of a totally different industrial climate. Those days are gone and they went in '89. Let's not enter into a lengthy discourse on that issue though.
Look how successful that campaign was!! And remember, that was in the old industrial climate where the union won most disputes.
I admire you for soldiering on, but I reckon you're pi$$ing into a 40 knot northerly on R34 Melbourne.
Re Jetstar, I know how they operate. In February I did a trip MEL-BGK, 2 crew operation, crew had signed on, 5 hours late, crew sitting in the pax terminal the whole time, no supplementary crew, result was 16+ hours tour of duty. I submitted a confidential report, and it looks as though it's been swept under the carpet. Despite my efforts to find a result I'm thwarted at every turn. The regulator doesn't care!!! Don't think you can turn to the government or regulator because they don'e care. Let me say that again, THEY DON'T CARE!!! More plainly, they don't give a ****!!!
You can't rely on the 'worldwide desperate shortage of experienced crews' because that has been on for more than 30 years, or so we've been told. I know a guy flying for Rex who is relying on that shortage for VB and Jetstar to provide endorsements at no cost, and he's been waiting since VB started operations 10 years ago. It won't happen because there is not a shortage of people wanting to have a go at any salary. It has always been so and always will be so.
Krusty 34, Rex has been cancelling flights for the past couple of years because of a shortage of crews. Their share price plummeted, but will they pay more to retain pilots??? NO!! Once they'increase salaries, those increases are protected by 'savings clauses' in contracts. The companies are stuck with them. They would prefer to rely on the cycle of a few too many and then a few too short. It has always been like this and always will be.
Airlines themselves have always been a few over the top or a few short.
When Australian airlines can't find enough recruits locally they will go to third world countries. Incidentally I've flown with Indian pilots, and they have been some of the best I've come across. The old line that because somebody isn't white they couldn't possibly fly an aircraft is long gone I'm afraid to say. Good training overcomes most issues, and Australia has good training. Re the white pilot issue, most American pilots are white, and I've seen an abominable standard amongst them. Shoots that argument down.
There will be no return to 'the good old days', and that isn't just for aviation.
Look how successful that campaign was!! And remember, that was in the old industrial climate where the union won most disputes.
I admire you for soldiering on, but I reckon you're pi$$ing into a 40 knot northerly on R34 Melbourne.
Re Jetstar, I know how they operate. In February I did a trip MEL-BGK, 2 crew operation, crew had signed on, 5 hours late, crew sitting in the pax terminal the whole time, no supplementary crew, result was 16+ hours tour of duty. I submitted a confidential report, and it looks as though it's been swept under the carpet. Despite my efforts to find a result I'm thwarted at every turn. The regulator doesn't care!!! Don't think you can turn to the government or regulator because they don'e care. Let me say that again, THEY DON'T CARE!!! More plainly, they don't give a ****!!!
You can't rely on the 'worldwide desperate shortage of experienced crews' because that has been on for more than 30 years, or so we've been told. I know a guy flying for Rex who is relying on that shortage for VB and Jetstar to provide endorsements at no cost, and he's been waiting since VB started operations 10 years ago. It won't happen because there is not a shortage of people wanting to have a go at any salary. It has always been so and always will be so.
Krusty 34, Rex has been cancelling flights for the past couple of years because of a shortage of crews. Their share price plummeted, but will they pay more to retain pilots??? NO!! Once they'increase salaries, those increases are protected by 'savings clauses' in contracts. The companies are stuck with them. They would prefer to rely on the cycle of a few too many and then a few too short. It has always been like this and always will be.
Airlines themselves have always been a few over the top or a few short.
When Australian airlines can't find enough recruits locally they will go to third world countries. Incidentally I've flown with Indian pilots, and they have been some of the best I've come across. The old line that because somebody isn't white they couldn't possibly fly an aircraft is long gone I'm afraid to say. Good training overcomes most issues, and Australia has good training. Re the white pilot issue, most American pilots are white, and I've seen an abominable standard amongst them. Shoots that argument down.
There will be no return to 'the good old days', and that isn't just for aviation.
Last edited by relax737; 14th Sep 2010 at 03:58.
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737 - misery, misery, misery....
Who said anything about 1989? Who ever said there was a pilot shortage for the past 30 years? I sure as hell haven't seen it (until 3 years ago and now). Who said anything about white people being better than others?
As I mentioned perhaps before you retire you might like to leave a legacy of inspiring your young colleagues rather than perpetuating your own misery. At this time of opportunity, encouragement to better the lot of Professional Pilots is what is required.
PS: Just a timely article for you from todays' Flight International.
SOURCE:Flight International
Pilot error behind Air India Express 737 crash, say reports
By Ghim-Lay Yeo
Pilot error has emerged as the likely cause of an Air India Express Boeing 737-800 crash on 22 May in southern India, say reports.
Investigators told an official court of inquiry that the aircraft's pilot was on the wrong flightpath and had ignored his co-pilot, who told him to execute a go-around, say the reports.
An official with the court of inquiry declined to comment on the reports when contacted.
In the incident, the aircraft crashed and burst into flames at Mangalore International airport in the southern state of Karnataka after it overshot the runway while landing. Only eight of the 160 passengers and crew members on board survived the crash. Both pilots died in the incident.
Who said anything about 1989? Who ever said there was a pilot shortage for the past 30 years? I sure as hell haven't seen it (until 3 years ago and now). Who said anything about white people being better than others?
As I mentioned perhaps before you retire you might like to leave a legacy of inspiring your young colleagues rather than perpetuating your own misery. At this time of opportunity, encouragement to better the lot of Professional Pilots is what is required.
PS: Just a timely article for you from todays' Flight International.
SOURCE:Flight International
Pilot error behind Air India Express 737 crash, say reports
By Ghim-Lay Yeo
Pilot error has emerged as the likely cause of an Air India Express Boeing 737-800 crash on 22 May in southern India, say reports.
Investigators told an official court of inquiry that the aircraft's pilot was on the wrong flightpath and had ignored his co-pilot, who told him to execute a go-around, say the reports.
An official with the court of inquiry declined to comment on the reports when contacted.
In the incident, the aircraft crashed and burst into flames at Mangalore International airport in the southern state of Karnataka after it overshot the runway while landing. Only eight of the 160 passengers and crew members on board survived the crash. Both pilots died in the incident.
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PS: And the friggin' good old days weren't any good until PILOTS stepped-in and took control of their fortunes rather than only moaning incessantly about how bad things are.
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Investigators told an official court of inquiry that the aircraft's pilot was on the wrong flightpath and had ignored his co-pilot, who told him to execute a go-around, say the reports.
The "kid with 200hrs" would have saved 152 lives, but the Captain ended them.
Last edited by 7378FE; 14th Sep 2010 at 07:07. Reason: Speeling & Gramma
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Le Rhone, The old pilot shortage chestnut has been around since I started flying, and is constantly being mentioned by anybody who wants to convince themselves that it exists.
Who mentioned '89?? I did in the context of what a disaster it was, so I hope you plan your industrial action somewhat better than that was planned.
The good old days aren't so good for those 1000+ pilots who found themselves working overseas, some in god forsaken places for not much money, flying junk aircraft and compromising standards to earn an income as a result of an ill conceived and executed action back in '89. Was that the 'taking control' of which you speak???
You mentioned the solution in an earlier post. Indian pilots. Why would they come to Australia?? Because they will be paid a LOT MORE than in their own country, but still a LOT LESS than Australian companies are currently paying. That's a simple exercise in economics.
Mr Hat, post # 62, you are quite right.
If you haven't heard the arrogant line that Asian, African, South American, etc., pilots aren't nearly as good as Australian, New Zealand, American, British, etc., then I seriously doubt that you've been flying commercially or ever walked into a crew room.
I haven't read the FI article but will do so. Without having read it, I'll make the assumption that it will be like the head of the Real Estate Institute talking up the market after the most dismal Saturday auction clearance in decades. Talk is cheap.
I do wish you luck in your campaign, and nothing would please me more than to see Jetstar and Virgin paying 250K+ for a Captain, but I don't see it happening.
You obviously missed what I said about Rex parking aircraft rather than paying more to retain experienced crew. Managements don't think like pilots.
Good point 787FE. In many/most cases, the young inexperienced FO is a very switched on individual, still a lot to learn, but alert, eager to please, sharp as a tack, and champing at the bit for promotion.
There's something about being the eternal pessimist; I'm never disappointed, and just occasionally, ever so occasionally, I will be pleasantly surprised. Plan for the worst and hope for the best.
I thought the 'this' underlined was a link, but not so. The text appears in your post. What more can I say than 787FE. The experienced Captain killed 152!! The inexperienced FO called for a go around which would have saved 152. You didn't think that through before you posted!!
Who mentioned '89?? I did in the context of what a disaster it was, so I hope you plan your industrial action somewhat better than that was planned.
The good old days aren't so good for those 1000+ pilots who found themselves working overseas, some in god forsaken places for not much money, flying junk aircraft and compromising standards to earn an income as a result of an ill conceived and executed action back in '89. Was that the 'taking control' of which you speak???
You mentioned the solution in an earlier post. Indian pilots. Why would they come to Australia?? Because they will be paid a LOT MORE than in their own country, but still a LOT LESS than Australian companies are currently paying. That's a simple exercise in economics.
Mr Hat, post # 62, you are quite right.
If you haven't heard the arrogant line that Asian, African, South American, etc., pilots aren't nearly as good as Australian, New Zealand, American, British, etc., then I seriously doubt that you've been flying commercially or ever walked into a crew room.
I haven't read the FI article but will do so. Without having read it, I'll make the assumption that it will be like the head of the Real Estate Institute talking up the market after the most dismal Saturday auction clearance in decades. Talk is cheap.
I do wish you luck in your campaign, and nothing would please me more than to see Jetstar and Virgin paying 250K+ for a Captain, but I don't see it happening.
You obviously missed what I said about Rex parking aircraft rather than paying more to retain experienced crew. Managements don't think like pilots.
Good point 787FE. In many/most cases, the young inexperienced FO is a very switched on individual, still a lot to learn, but alert, eager to please, sharp as a tack, and champing at the bit for promotion.
There's something about being the eternal pessimist; I'm never disappointed, and just occasionally, ever so occasionally, I will be pleasantly surprised. Plan for the worst and hope for the best.
I thought the 'this' underlined was a link, but not so. The text appears in your post. What more can I say than 787FE. The experienced Captain killed 152!! The inexperienced FO called for a go around which would have saved 152. You didn't think that through before you posted!!
Last edited by relax737; 14th Sep 2010 at 09:11.
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The positions will be filled internally. The newspaper ad is only if the positions can't be filled. I heard there have been approx 140 expressions of interest already.
Also have heard rumours of 8 aircraft.
Good luck
Also have heard rumours of 8 aircraft.
Good luck
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That's good news mention1, but why would they advertise before receiving expressions of interest internally???
It doesn't seem that not mentioning T&C's has dissuaded many with 140 expressions of interest. Those people expressing interest could be seen to be selling you down the drain then.
This is perfect example of market forces and the lack of 'pilot unity' that we see mentioned here so often. The company will get their starters even at $120K pa if that's what they offer because pilots want to fly bigger and shinier.
I recall when I started flying and an instructor said something like: It doesn't matter what you're flying, there's always something bigger and newer that you'll lust after. It's true.
It doesn't seem that not mentioning T&C's has dissuaded many with 140 expressions of interest. Those people expressing interest could be seen to be selling you down the drain then.
This is perfect example of market forces and the lack of 'pilot unity' that we see mentioned here so often. The company will get their starters even at $120K pa if that's what they offer because pilots want to fly bigger and shinier.
I recall when I started flying and an instructor said something like: It doesn't matter what you're flying, there's always something bigger and newer that you'll lust after. It's true.
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It's an "Expression of Interest"...Not an "I accept the job"...all it is saying is.."Yes, I'm interested"...nothing more....
If the T&C's are crap, then you can always say.."No Thanks"...
If they get NO "Expression's of Interest", then the Company would have every right to employ outside....."We had too, nobody internally was interested"...
If the T&C's are crap, then you can always say.."No Thanks"...
If they get NO "Expression's of Interest", then the Company would have every right to employ outside....."We had too, nobody internally was interested"...
Not quite correct baldy.
If the company was serious. The "proposed" Conditions could have been advertised and internal "bids" based on those minimums would have been ligitimate.
If the company was serious. The "proposed" Conditions could have been advertised and internal "bids" based on those minimums would have been ligitimate.
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ALR definitely not fight the fight I say. First of all the problem you have is that the AFAP don't support the cause even remotely. The latest I hear is that J* are throwing the words "Command Upgrade" around. This might be enough to derail the whole thing.
Command Upgrade= militant FO becomes company man overnight.
Command Upgrade= militant FO becomes company man overnight.
relax737
I wasn't talking of 1989. I think I was at school still.
Stop being a Cassandra. You can still improve your COS.
If I you get the initial unity of the 89ers, I think a lot of airlines would be very concerned. Ansett and TAA were government backed. The government broke the strike after a period of time that would send most modern airlines broke.
I'm not advocating an 89 scenario BTW. Just sick of people claiming it to be a massive defeat for pilots, with ramifications affecting every industrial position taken 20 years later.
I wasn't talking of 1989. I think I was at school still.
Stop being a Cassandra. You can still improve your COS.
If I you get the initial unity of the 89ers, I think a lot of airlines would be very concerned. Ansett and TAA were government backed. The government broke the strike after a period of time that would send most modern airlines broke.
I'm not advocating an 89 scenario BTW. Just sick of people claiming it to be a massive defeat for pilots, with ramifications affecting every industrial position taken 20 years later.
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There is a famous quote that goes something like:
Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are destinted to repeat the failures.
I think there is an important difference between being a realist and a defeatist.
Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are destinted to repeat the failures.
I think there is an important difference between being a realist and a defeatist.
What was the first oz airline that employed pilots and expected them to cough up for their own type rating?
I would have thought VB fellas would have been all happy for someone else to come and fly these new machines.... would save them paying for another type rating wouldn't it? Bloody expensive to be part of this Australian pilot gig it seems.
The Don
I would have thought VB fellas would have been all happy for someone else to come and fly these new machines.... would save them paying for another type rating wouldn't it? Bloody expensive to be part of this Australian pilot gig it seems.
The Don
It seems this thread has spread its tentacles to cover just about every sin and every dispute resolution known to the modern pilot.
Without trying to derail those who want to save the world....
Expressions of interest were called for the 777 and quite a number (myself included) considered the operation and submitted an EI.
Once the facts were on the table quite a few of us decided not to continue the process.
Some did and took the SYD base and all that went with it.
I don't see much difference in the current call for an Expression of Interest in the A330 operation except to say that it will be crewed exclusively by VB pilots.
Once again I have submitted an EI but a BNE base, a great lifestyle and a package (after working hard) that puts me over 250K++ will be hard to beat.
If there is insufficient interest by current and suitably qualified VB pilots then direct entry pilots will be employed by VB.
I have been told that at this stage possibly only 3 direct entry positions may be on the cards.
If and when the operation turns International then things may/will turn a bit ugly as far as the crewing aspects, but until then for those who want a MEL base to fly an Airbus product go for it.
Don,
The 777 introduction did not require any VB pilot to pay for an endorsement.
The Embraer introduction did not require any VB pilot to pay for an endorsement.
I don't believe the A330 will require any VB pilot to pay for an endorsement (but the offer is yet to be tabled)
Sorry for the facts.
Without trying to derail those who want to save the world....
Expressions of interest were called for the 777 and quite a number (myself included) considered the operation and submitted an EI.
Once the facts were on the table quite a few of us decided not to continue the process.
Some did and took the SYD base and all that went with it.
I don't see much difference in the current call for an Expression of Interest in the A330 operation except to say that it will be crewed exclusively by VB pilots.
Once again I have submitted an EI but a BNE base, a great lifestyle and a package (after working hard) that puts me over 250K++ will be hard to beat.
If there is insufficient interest by current and suitably qualified VB pilots then direct entry pilots will be employed by VB.
I have been told that at this stage possibly only 3 direct entry positions may be on the cards.
If and when the operation turns International then things may/will turn a bit ugly as far as the crewing aspects, but until then for those who want a MEL base to fly an Airbus product go for it.
Don,
The 777 introduction did not require any VB pilot to pay for an endorsement.
The Embraer introduction did not require any VB pilot to pay for an endorsement.
I don't believe the A330 will require any VB pilot to pay for an endorsement (but the offer is yet to be tabled)
Sorry for the facts.
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foolish
Hmm.. the Captain who obviously knew what he was doing, ignored his junior flight deck member who was aware of the situation.
The "kid with 200hrs" would have saved 152 lives, but the Captain ended them.
The "kid with 200hrs" would have saved 152 lives, but the Captain ended them.
tsalta
Last edited by tsalta; 14th Sep 2010 at 18:39. Reason: spelling
to the stars ,
I am glad your not required to buy another Type rating. This is very good news. Enjoy the bus.
The don
I am glad your not required to buy another Type rating. This is very good news. Enjoy the bus.
The don