Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Cairns 15ILS - What Gives

Old 30th Aug 2010, 11:16
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Cairns 15ILS - What Gives

Why in the name of God does it take over 2 months to replace the ILS. Are these numpties manufacturing each individual screw. Surely the system would be manufactured offsite, templates made for new building/mounting pads, and then new system installed with minimum disruption.

The 33LLZ replacement took only 1 month, and the runway lights 1 month(including new RESA for 15). Now rumours indicate ILS out till NOV or later!!

God knows the accumulated cost of all the recent weather diversions to TL by those unfortunate enough not to have RNP capabilities(some CX, QF, JQ, VB etc)

Admittedly the installers can't control the weather, but do try to hasten things up a bit lads.

Worlds' Best Practice my arse.....
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Old 30th Aug 2010, 11:25
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I just hope they remember to make the transmitting unit(s) rain proof, so that you can actually use the ILS in wet weather. Now theres an idea!
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Old 30th Aug 2010, 21:44
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RNP?

not to have RNP capabilities(some CX, QF, JQ, VB etc)
I can only speak for CX, and I can assure you that they have RNP1.

I believe that the problem is that the 15 RNAV approach is not to be used by a Cat D aircraft - I'm guessing the proximity of the hills to the west combined with the currently offset approach for noise.
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Old 31st Aug 2010, 01:45
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Sorry, too many reds last night, meant RNAV approaches
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Old 31st Aug 2010, 01:48
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Bad planning or lack of resources?. Do we still have to pay our AirNav charges? or can we claim costs on Airservices failure to provide a service?
I thought only third world international airports didn't have an ILS.
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Old 31st Aug 2010, 02:12
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CNS ???

What is it with CNS?
Lets hope its quicker than the refurb of the Domestic terminal that has taken 3 years!
How long does it take to put up a Bunnings store.....its only a big empty shed like a terminal
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Old 31st Aug 2010, 02:21
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OK guys, before we all run around with our aprons over our heads and acting like Bob Nutter and calling for full investigations, a few facts.

Although most of the elements of the ILS are COTS items and come ready to install, it is most definately NOT a plug-and-play system.
The civil works associated with the installation need to be completed to strict standards.
The tech certing for installers is very stringent. There are only a few techs that are competent to do this work.
The cabling installation is critical - the lengths have to be calculated and cut to a fraction of a millimeter.
The whole system has to undergo a stringent series of alignments and ground testing folowed by flight testing.
It is not a process to be short circuited.

On top of all this, the installation was planned to take place at the driest part of the year to prevent exactly the disruptions that have taken place.
Of course Murphy has intervened and unseasonal rain has come at exactly the moment calculated to cause the most disruption to the project.

It is a slur on the guys working on this to compare them to third world countries. They do their work with the utmost skill and pride in what they do. They are working under a lot of schedule pressure already - there are no shortcuts in doing this properly.
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Old 31st Aug 2010, 02:53
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the problem is that the 15 RNAV approach is not to be used by a Cat D aircraft
And Cat C.
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Old 31st Aug 2010, 04:16
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And the new terminal is crap, no natural light at all.
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Old 31st Aug 2010, 06:42
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Forget the ILS, its 2010, just install a GBAS.
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Old 31st Aug 2010, 07:46
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I am pretty sure ASA don't own any of the ILS's, the airports own them. Nav charges are in no way related. I'd be complaining about paying landing fees instead!
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Old 31st Aug 2010, 20:24
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AWOL, nope, ASA own the ILS. Sometimes you're just plain unlucky, wx is hard to predict.
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Old 1st Sep 2010, 04:19
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As I posted elsewhere, there will be an RNAV Z shortly that includes Cat C & D, but unfortunately it won't be available til after ILS is back.
Can someone explain why some of the aircraft (Cat C) are continuing VOR A approach to minima and others from the same company (same type) are stopping at 1500ft or thereabouts?
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Old 1st Sep 2010, 05:06
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VOR has a circling minima of.... 1700' or thereabouts - for CAT D and 900' for CAT C.

There is no straight in minima.

Some may be doing the creek corridor visual arrival off the VOR (which nearly coincides with CAT D circling minima)

Some may break off to join final earlier if visual.
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Old 1st Sep 2010, 05:46
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As far as I am concerned, if I'm cleared for a VOR due to the weather, the Creek Corridor goes out the window. That is only a noise abatement procedure when the weather is fine and beaut.

As for circling at 910, there is nothing to stop a crew overflying for a circuit at 910 if they can't make a comfortable conversion to a oblique left base off the VOR approach, provided they have been trained to do so. Commercially, that is a no-brainer.

The fact that different crews on the same fleet are doing different things (910/1500) points to a lack of confidence in being able to use the real minima - which points to lack of training.

there will be an RNAV Z shortly that includes Cat C & D, but unfortunately it won't be available til after ILS is back.
What is really needed is an RNAV onto 33 for when the LLZ is out. That is hairy at night. But I guess the hills would make an RNAV design difficult.
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Old 1st Sep 2010, 07:38
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Originally Posted by coral
Why don't you just fly the RNAV(RNP) approach that is already published?
Because it's not approved for the type/operator.

The best way I've found to skin this cat is reach the Mapt at 910', then if visual track for a 1.5nm final. Going around from the Mapt, configured for landing is most uncomfortable.

Credit to Bloggs from a few weeks ago, from whom I copy much of this procedure.
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Old 1st Sep 2010, 10:21
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Why don't you just fly the RNAV(RNP) approach that is already published?
At the moment only QF 737-800's can fly these approaches, they allow a straight in 260' / 800m vis DA minima, basically the same as an ILS.
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Old 1st Sep 2010, 11:25
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Now rumours indicate ILS out till NOV or later!!

Whose orifice did you pluck that rumour out of?
The ILS is still scheduled for flight testing in about 3 weeks.

The best way I've found to skin this cat is reach the Mapt at 910',...
This is what we expect all cat C aircraft capable of, however the actual experience has been a mixed bag. Some will hit the alt minima prior to 1.7DME, then start to climb prior to the MAPt. Others level off at 1000' or higher as Company SOPs may require them to be stabilized by this level.

With respect to extra costs involved, why are some of the airlines sending flights up (even after direct advice from local ATC that they won't get in), attempt 1 or 2 approaches then head off back south again?

I'm also curious as to whether Qantas & Jetstar made any effort during this inclement weather to replace cat D aircraft with cat C. I realise it must be a logistical nightmare, but is it given any consideration?

Qantas B738s have been flying the RNP(RNAV) approaches into Cairns for 3 years now, so maybe this will hasten the approval request/process for other operators.
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Old 1st Sep 2010, 12:45
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Some will hit the alt minima prior to 1.7DME, then start to climb prior to the MAPt.
Understandable if company policy is to not allow visual circling. 910ft at 2.6nm from the threshold (1.7 DME) is around 100ft above the 3 slope (disregarding the bend onto final), which, if you throw in the autopilot flare-to-level, will put you well above the PAPI 3, requiring some very deft stick-and-rudder work to get back on slope by 500ft.

If I were not permitted to circle, then I'd be using a 3x profile, clipping that 1500ft step, and when I got to 910ft (at 3DME), I'd do a Missed Approach.

Since I am allowed to circle, I'd stay at the circling config, still fly the same profile but if not visual, fly in to the Mapt at 910ft. Get visual early enough? Take landing flap, finish the checklist and land straight-in. Get visual too late for a Straight In? Circle via a left circuit.
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Old 1st Sep 2010, 23:27
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Cains is and will remain a 3rd world airport with no centre line lighting during a tropical downpour it's a nightmare to find the ground.
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