Pilots of Australia - time to unite - Meeting Aug 23
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1a Sound Asleep, we are all waiting for your solution, assuming that you perceive there is actually a problem. Please provide us with your wisdom, what exactly would you suggest?
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THINK
a. Save the industry
b. Save your jobs
c. Secure the future
a. Save the industry
b. Save your jobs
c. Secure the future
6. If you want high income go get a job selling insurance or become a dentist or lawyer
The low cost AirAsia/Tiger style of business will eventually erode safety margins and the Australian tax payer will be the eventual loser when a tired hungry stressed pilot has a bad day.
They're already complaining How did the friendly skies become so unfriendly? | News.com.au
Its time for some reform in this industry.
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I tried to make this point in an earlier post, but amid all the euphoria, it seems to have gone through to the keeper:
Improving your own salary and conditions will put other pilots out of a job.
This is a basic economic reality. Improvements to YOUR terms and conditions are at the expense of other pilot's jobs. This is because the money that pays the increased salaries must come from the public.
But the public, generally speaking, can't afford the extra cost, or are not prepared to pay it.
And no, it is not just another 20 or 30 cents on the airfare.
Improving your own salary and conditions will put other pilots out of a job.
This is a basic economic reality. Improvements to YOUR terms and conditions are at the expense of other pilot's jobs. This is because the money that pays the increased salaries must come from the public.
But the public, generally speaking, can't afford the extra cost, or are not prepared to pay it.
And no, it is not just another 20 or 30 cents on the airfare.
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This is not about improving salary ! - Most of the JQ guys I know are relatively happy with the pay and conditions in their EBA, its the principle of offshoring new jobs to other countries and bringing in new crew on dodgy contracts to fly the ones they cant offshore.
If JQ can do it, so can any other operator. Look back at what QF and JQ have done to divide the flight attendants in the last few years - there are now about ten different companies/contracts, where there used to be one or two. Each new company/contract undercut the last, and lots of them are now based in asia earning little more than a bowl of labrador and rice a week...... Im sure they would love to do the same to us.
This has the potential to effect GA drivers and regional pilots as much as any JQ pilot.
If you were Bruce Buchanan would you rather employ an experienced 3000hr FO from a regional airline on $90k or a 200hr cadet pilot you lock in for 6 years at $40k (and has already paid you $100k for the privilege) ?
I never thought Id see this sort of unity on PPRUNE.... is great.... were up to page 4 and no one has make a kok of themselves yet - Ill be there !
Do I need to RSVP ??
Beers afterwards anyone ??
If JQ can do it, so can any other operator. Look back at what QF and JQ have done to divide the flight attendants in the last few years - there are now about ten different companies/contracts, where there used to be one or two. Each new company/contract undercut the last, and lots of them are now based in asia earning little more than a bowl of labrador and rice a week...... Im sure they would love to do the same to us.
This has the potential to effect GA drivers and regional pilots as much as any JQ pilot.
If you were Bruce Buchanan would you rather employ an experienced 3000hr FO from a regional airline on $90k or a 200hr cadet pilot you lock in for 6 years at $40k (and has already paid you $100k for the privilege) ?
I never thought Id see this sort of unity on PPRUNE.... is great.... were up to page 4 and no one has make a kok of themselves yet - Ill be there !
Do I need to RSVP ??
Beers afterwards anyone ??
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Don't know what the roster holds yet, but if available I will also be in attendance. For the one or two clowns who simply think we are after lots and lots a money, grow up and actually read what's going on. As a poster above said, this is about at least retaining what we have, and halting that slide into oblivion that the pissants who run these airlines take so much joy in implementing.
Whispering "T" Jet
Before you all get too full of bravado, just have a good read of the lengths the Airlines will go to to maintain the modus operandi. It is all here and pay particular notice of the section titled "The Role of the Pilots who scabbed".
Good Luck
Good Luck
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One of the biggest problems with pilots is we are surprisingly blind when it comes to matters of economics.
Some of us even believe the nonsense put out by airline CEO's and even regurgitate it here.
ie: the sky is falling. Sneaky Asian airlines will undercut us. Employees salaries must be cut to stay competitive. cut, cut, cut, chop, chop, chop. Be careful or we'll put another 1989 your way. Be scared. Accept these cuts to save the industry, save your jobs and secure the future.
But then the airlines reap in millions in profits. The greedy CEO's depart with massive payouts and yet we are gullible enough still to cower in fear!! Astonishing.
I work for an Asian airline and I make way more than I could in Australia and the cost base here is far higher than Australia. Pilots in Australia are being conned and just taking it.
The airline I work for made nearly ONE BILLION AUSTRALIAN DOLLARS in the last six months alone. And still it's CEO's are blurting on about rocky recoveries and the need for staff to accept no salary increases. That doesn't apply to their bonuses of course.
Bottom Line: Airline CEO's want to make the best profit so their CV looks good and they get a better job in the future. If that means screwing you out of everything then so be it. You are just an impediment to how much money lines their own pockets.
Bottom Line: Basic economic laws of supply and demand still control most markets and pilots are no exception. This has been the root cause of much of our problem over the years - too many pilots not enough proper jobs. But the law still works and being a pilot is no longer attractive so fewer and fewer are being churned-out. Airlines globally have so many aircraft on order and are about to have difficulty getting experienced pilots to fly them. Emirates is only one - needing 750 pilots in the next 16 months. This shortage was already the case before the GFC and my airline couldn't get what they deemed decent pilots anywhere.
Net results is that Terms and Conditions for qualified and experienced aircrews MUST improve in accordance with basic economic laws.
But it is important that we don't swallow the nonsense sprouted by CEO's whose only interest is their own. Airlines may temporarily distort markets by importing say a Cessna Caravan driver from Bolivia with 800 hours to be an A320 Captain BUT as the Colgan case in the US proves, governments will not allow this indefinitely as standards inevitably slip.
And this is the key to our own PR Case. Governments and the public need to be made aware that the J*'s of this world will stop at nothing to boost their profits, including the inevitable reduction of skill and experience that lowering
recruitment profiles entails. This inevitably will be countered with claims of featherbedding etc and the likes of O'Leary of Ryanair are past masters of this. But don't be dissuaded by this tactic. The Colgan case and the US Congress minimum-experience legislation is a very powerful PR weapon for us.
And for goodness sake don't go falling for the CEO Chicken-Little "Sky is Falling" spiel.
Jeez I can rabbit-on, sorry about that...
Some of us even believe the nonsense put out by airline CEO's and even regurgitate it here.
ie: the sky is falling. Sneaky Asian airlines will undercut us. Employees salaries must be cut to stay competitive. cut, cut, cut, chop, chop, chop. Be careful or we'll put another 1989 your way. Be scared. Accept these cuts to save the industry, save your jobs and secure the future.
But then the airlines reap in millions in profits. The greedy CEO's depart with massive payouts and yet we are gullible enough still to cower in fear!! Astonishing.
I work for an Asian airline and I make way more than I could in Australia and the cost base here is far higher than Australia. Pilots in Australia are being conned and just taking it.
The airline I work for made nearly ONE BILLION AUSTRALIAN DOLLARS in the last six months alone. And still it's CEO's are blurting on about rocky recoveries and the need for staff to accept no salary increases. That doesn't apply to their bonuses of course.
Bottom Line: Airline CEO's want to make the best profit so their CV looks good and they get a better job in the future. If that means screwing you out of everything then so be it. You are just an impediment to how much money lines their own pockets.
Bottom Line: Basic economic laws of supply and demand still control most markets and pilots are no exception. This has been the root cause of much of our problem over the years - too many pilots not enough proper jobs. But the law still works and being a pilot is no longer attractive so fewer and fewer are being churned-out. Airlines globally have so many aircraft on order and are about to have difficulty getting experienced pilots to fly them. Emirates is only one - needing 750 pilots in the next 16 months. This shortage was already the case before the GFC and my airline couldn't get what they deemed decent pilots anywhere.
Net results is that Terms and Conditions for qualified and experienced aircrews MUST improve in accordance with basic economic laws.
But it is important that we don't swallow the nonsense sprouted by CEO's whose only interest is their own. Airlines may temporarily distort markets by importing say a Cessna Caravan driver from Bolivia with 800 hours to be an A320 Captain BUT as the Colgan case in the US proves, governments will not allow this indefinitely as standards inevitably slip.
And this is the key to our own PR Case. Governments and the public need to be made aware that the J*'s of this world will stop at nothing to boost their profits, including the inevitable reduction of skill and experience that lowering
recruitment profiles entails. This inevitably will be countered with claims of featherbedding etc and the likes of O'Leary of Ryanair are past masters of this. But don't be dissuaded by this tactic. The Colgan case and the US Congress minimum-experience legislation is a very powerful PR weapon for us.
And for goodness sake don't go falling for the CEO Chicken-Little "Sky is Falling" spiel.
Jeez I can rabbit-on, sorry about that...
Guys & Gals,
I'm not one of you ... but I support you.
You may have only one chance at this, so make it a good one.
Suggestions:
I've seen other groups within a similar industry have a similar opportunity. Petty jealousies scuttled the attempt ... to their long term loss.
Best of luck.
I'm not one of you ... but I support you.
You may have only one chance at this, so make it a good one.
Suggestions:
- Yes, there have been some bastards pilots, bastard organisations and bastard companies in the past. Get over it quickly ... and move on.
- Don't worry too much about how companies will fund your salary. That's just a reasonable cost of doing business ... just like fuel costs, ASA charges and "Taxes". It's their responsibility to sell ticket prices to the public ... if they want the public to fly.
I've seen other groups within a similar industry have a similar opportunity. Petty jealousies scuttled the attempt ... to their long term loss.
Best of luck.
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A. Le Rhone what a fantastic post.
I guess there is always the option 1a and FDG offer. Sit back and let it happen because hey we need to protect jobs.
Then in 10 years time when all cabin crew and pilots and indeed all staff bar the CEO are from Manilla and Dheli and the likes of these two start complaining about How did the friendly skies become so unfriendly? | News.com.au we can send them a post card from which ever overseas country we've taken our experience to. On the post card is written "made your bed now sleep in it".
Alternatively we'll just wait for 180 people to die because some indian lad had been awake for 56 hours due to exemption x and speared one in. This might be the easier option shouldn't take too long. That annoying human factors thingy just keeps popping up. Just ask the Colgan family and friends how the cheap fares are going.
There's only so much you can squeeze out of the aviation orange before something goes bang. Oh well.
I guess there is always the option 1a and FDG offer. Sit back and let it happen because hey we need to protect jobs.
Then in 10 years time when all cabin crew and pilots and indeed all staff bar the CEO are from Manilla and Dheli and the likes of these two start complaining about How did the friendly skies become so unfriendly? | News.com.au we can send them a post card from which ever overseas country we've taken our experience to. On the post card is written "made your bed now sleep in it".
Alternatively we'll just wait for 180 people to die because some indian lad had been awake for 56 hours due to exemption x and speared one in. This might be the easier option shouldn't take too long. That annoying human factors thingy just keeps popping up. Just ask the Colgan family and friends how the cheap fares are going.
There's only so much you can squeeze out of the aviation orange before something goes bang. Oh well.
Last edited by Mr. Hat; 12th Aug 2010 at 11:29.
FGD135,
Is a very naive and short sighted view of price elasticity in economics. Just to flip it on it's side, what would happen if pilot salaries dropped to minimum wage? Would the industry attract the right professional's to its ranks? How would safety be affected?
If you are correct then perhaps we should apply this to the medical profession, would reducing doctors salaries increase the amount of doctors in the ranks? Many more people could then receive more detailed medical attention / cosmetic surgery / less hospital waiting times? There is after all a finite amount of money available from govt/insurance/private health funds.
Besides, as has been pointed out this meeting is not about increasing pay, but protecting T&C and ensuring that there remains an aviation industry in Australia.
Cheers,
MHA
Improving your own salary and conditions will put other pilots out of a job.
If you are correct then perhaps we should apply this to the medical profession, would reducing doctors salaries increase the amount of doctors in the ranks? Many more people could then receive more detailed medical attention / cosmetic surgery / less hospital waiting times? There is after all a finite amount of money available from govt/insurance/private health funds.
Besides, as has been pointed out this meeting is not about increasing pay, but protecting T&C and ensuring that there remains an aviation industry in Australia.
Cheers,
MHA
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One would assume that those in NZ on the disgraceful NZ contract would be welcome to attend. I know for a fact there are some in Christchurch keen to attend.
The Christchurch example has got to be the worst situation in the whole Jetstar debacle. Pilots on the pitance salaries, working along those on EBA contracts ! Same job, same aircraft, same routes - only difference: less days off and a fraction of the salary !!!!
Let Christchurch be a lesson to us all, and STOP IT HAPPENING IN OZ AND ALL BASES !!!!!
The Christchurch example has got to be the worst situation in the whole Jetstar debacle. Pilots on the pitance salaries, working along those on EBA contracts ! Same job, same aircraft, same routes - only difference: less days off and a fraction of the salary !!!!
Let Christchurch be a lesson to us all, and STOP IT HAPPENING IN OZ AND ALL BASES !!!!!
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You blokes cannot allow what happened in 89 make you have to put up with sh#t forever more. I for one wish it had never happened, but it did, learn from it, we were like lambs to the slaughter, you are anything but. At last I am seeing, I hope, some balls out there, and for us 89ers perhaps it will give us reason to cheer at long last. Get this into the press, not check book stuff, but perhaps 4 corners, the seven thirty report, etc get it out there, get the engineers on side, involve GA bigtime, the flying schools are going to be badly hit, get them involved, get yourselves a press guy, involve high schools that have aviation courses ditto tech colleges and most of all get the public on side. Most Australians are fairly laid back about flying, that is partly because of their confidence of the bloke or girl up the front, they know the score, thousands of hours etc, they will not be too comfortable when this suddenly changes, not at all. Is this on all airline chatrooms/forums, if not why not, AND STICK TOGETHER, and last but not least, all of you take on two extra tons, just to tickle em up a bit! Us old blokes will be cheering you on, for the sake of our young pilots, go for it!
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Apparently the media will also be there, so it is important that we get a good showing. Please email the AIPA offices if you can attend.
I havent read all of the above, so apologies if it has already been mentioned, but apparently Jetstar are also trying to crew 5 A320's in Oz with contract crew, bypassing the EBA!!!
This is our chance..lets take it. Perhaps we could take note of the following (my bold)...
"...'when the CEO's of Delta, Air France and KLM signed a Joint Venture Protocol with their respective pilots unions..........The pilot groups mentioned above also spoke of an agreement to further develop relationships and to share information..........no pilot group benefits at the expense of the other, and this agreement helps establish a level of trust and cooperation between the parties....Pilot unity is essential in understanding where other groups sit and understanding their concerns...'
cheers
I havent read all of the above, so apologies if it has already been mentioned, but apparently Jetstar are also trying to crew 5 A320's in Oz with contract crew, bypassing the EBA!!!
This is our chance..lets take it. Perhaps we could take note of the following (my bold)...
"...'when the CEO's of Delta, Air France and KLM signed a Joint Venture Protocol with their respective pilots unions..........The pilot groups mentioned above also spoke of an agreement to further develop relationships and to share information..........no pilot group benefits at the expense of the other, and this agreement helps establish a level of trust and cooperation between the parties....Pilot unity is essential in understanding where other groups sit and understanding their concerns...'
cheers
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teresa green Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: gold coast QLD australia Age: 72 Posts: 566
As a 89er, can I beg, plead, cajole,...
As a 89er, can I beg, plead, cajole,...
You blokes cannot allow what happened in 89....
So the full bloodey circle has come around huh? So be it - its up them now to sort out there own frigging mess and has realy nothing to do with us. Personaly I believe its a totaly unwinnable situation as the precidents are well and truley cemented.
Sui generis TG.
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J*, V, T and other "low cost carriers" are facing the facts that to operate any business you need at least 2 key ingredients.
1. A sound business plan.
2. People working for you that are satisfied that they are reaching their set goals.
The data that has already been collected overseas shows that there is no such thing as a safe low cost carrier.
Gotta go and dump some shares.
1. A sound business plan.
2. People working for you that are satisfied that they are reaching their set goals.
The data that has already been collected overseas shows that there is no such thing as a safe low cost carrier.
Gotta go and dump some shares.
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I for one will attend the meeting and am pleased to see some unity being generated at last in our profession.
We can no longer lay idle, anesthetized by the bull$#!t spin dealt us by these trolls who deal in fear, telling us the world will stop spinning less you dig deeper to get yourself out of the hole you are digging.
We can no longer lay idle, anesthetized by the bull$#!t spin dealt us by these trolls who deal in fear, telling us the world will stop spinning less you dig deeper to get yourself out of the hole you are digging.
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Slasher, this is a whole new ball game mate. We had a Prime Minister who answered to developers, the present bunch are too busy watching their own backs to worry about you lot, and you can safely say the pilots of 89 and their pay claim, regardless if you agreed with it or not, was the start of enterprise bargaining, which is the norm these days. What I DON"T want to see are the AIPA and the AFAP frightened to have a go because of us, the companies will continue to heap sh#t on you whilst you have that attitude, and us, the 89ers, hope to see you unite under one banner and stick it too them. While we are certainly irelevent these days, (or many of us are) it was us blokes (yes I was on the AFAP committee) who fought to get pilots, good wages (I was earning less than my neighbour who serviced phone lines) got the bid lines going, got good accomodation for our crews (the companies would have us share a room if they could) and no I don't think we were bloody hero's for doing it, it was a privilege to battle some of these bastards, but it should not stop now, speak up, you live in a democracy, use it, it is not a forgone conclusion as you suggest, only if you allow it to be..
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Where will the money come from?
Where will the money to finance the improved T&Cs come from?
It can only come from one place: the travelling public.
Will they happily pay more for their tickets? Generally speaking, NO. Like any other commodity, the greater its cost, the less of it that will be sold.
As airfares increase, the less affordable air travel becomes.
With less of the public travelling by air, the number of aircraft and pilots required will be less.
This means that planes will have to go into storage and their pilots will have to find other employment.
It's that simple.
Look at it another way: There are many, many times more pilots (and planes) these days than there were 20 years ago. This is because air travel is many, many times more affordable than 20 years ago.
Pilots (and flight attendants, engineers, managers) must expect that their T&Cs (and lifestyle) will be many, many times worse than it was 20 years ago.
When are you guys going to realise that commercial air travel has been on this course since the 1920's?
Think you can change that course?
It can only come from one place: the travelling public.
Will they happily pay more for their tickets? Generally speaking, NO. Like any other commodity, the greater its cost, the less of it that will be sold.
As airfares increase, the less affordable air travel becomes.
With less of the public travelling by air, the number of aircraft and pilots required will be less.
This means that planes will have to go into storage and their pilots will have to find other employment.
It's that simple.
Look at it another way: There are many, many times more pilots (and planes) these days than there were 20 years ago. This is because air travel is many, many times more affordable than 20 years ago.
Pilots (and flight attendants, engineers, managers) must expect that their T&Cs (and lifestyle) will be many, many times worse than it was 20 years ago.
When are you guys going to realise that commercial air travel has been on this course since the 1920's?
Think you can change that course?