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The Axe Man of Apia

Old 23rd Feb 2010, 11:24
  #21 (permalink)  

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Pissing Competition!

You live or die as a crew!

Having said that, a pain in the arse is a pain in the arse - regardless of how many bars they're wearing.
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Old 23rd Feb 2010, 13:54
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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The Axe Man of Apia

Centaurus:

As usual a fine thread and worth a good long read. Congratulations.

Tmb
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Old 23rd Feb 2010, 14:25
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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With the greatest respect, much of the OP's post comes from views bourne out of wartime aviation and aircraft designs therein.

Modern multicrew airliners are certified for and require 2 or more pilots to operate.

The operation of which, (in both normal and abnormal) situations require the successful integration of the efforts of 2 quite seperate and distinct roles.

In reality, modern airline pilots are trained to fulfill either role. Especially Airbus pilots who are either PF or PNF and it is the responsibility of the FO to know his place and the Capt to either respect and use the knowledge his FO may have or delegate a role.

In my current airline FO's are graded in the sim on their ability to manage normal and non normal situations.

Having said all that, its up to the Capt to set the tone and ultimately as an FO, if you're not happy with proceedings then there's the "Capt you must listen" line (or whatever your airline uses), the axe, engine master switches off, or if it gets really bad- park the brakes, blow a slide and off load yourself.

Edited to add:

As an aside, wartime avaition never witnessed industrial situations that have occurred in the last 20 years or so that have resulted in situations nowadays where quite often the FO is frequently often older and more experienced with significant heavy jet time compared to the 30 year old A320 Capt on his left.
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Old 23rd Feb 2010, 15:06
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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"Mate"

Centaurus:

A long time ago I used to have the odd beer with a senior Captain in Air Niguini who when he listened on the radio to the " Mates Chatter" would make a response " Yor are no Mate of mine, thank God, so use proper terminolgy or shut up. His other hate was crew members who turned up at the Ground bus with unpolished shoes.They normaly only did it once!.
I agree with both of his "hates", at the time he was well up the ladder on the A310.

Tmb
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Old 23rd Feb 2010, 15:27
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Amen warren9.

Some interesting and perhaps scary insights shared above.
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Old 23rd Feb 2010, 19:33
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Anthill, I really suspect that you are taking this authority issue too far, and I am getting some vibes that you are a little underconfident in your position as a Captain, if indeed you are.

Yes, there are rules and regulations which support your position. A good leader though, doesn't need them. He or she does so by example and good leadership and management. If you have to resort to quoting law then you have lost the battle.

As a Captain, I have flown with FO's who are undoubtetly better pilots than I. As an FO, I have flown with Captains who are worse pilots than I. So what? I don't care as long as the punters get from point A to point B safely and comfortably. If we, as operating crew, can get them there whilst we are comfortable in our little office, then we have done a great job.

An FO is there to support the process of making decisions, not to be a decision maker in themselves. The Captain, under law, is the only decision maker on the aircraft. Some crew may feel a sense of entilement to make decisions and this should be permited on the FOs sector to the degree that the Captain agrees with that decision as being safe, efficient and lawful.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. You have missed the point of the thread that centaurus started. Sorry fella, but I want any FO who flies with me to make decisions for themselves. The FO flying with the Axe Man of Apia made a decision, and it likely saved the aircraft. FO's MUST make decisions for themselves, and if they don't then they have no right to be sitting in a cockpit. They must be encouraged, guided, trusted, mentored and respected. One day, a FO will likely pull me out of the sh1t, and I will owe him or her big time. Anthill, perhaps you should remember this.

If you as a Captain state that an FO can only make the decisions that you allow him too, then you are no better than the Captain who had the Axe held to him, and you have completely missed the point of good CRM.

Some instances where I have steeped the "gradient of authority to vertical include:
An FO who thought that is safe to proceed with the WX radar in AUTO and refused to deviate around a CB that I had detected by varying the gain and tilt.
An FO who tried to continue a 'visual' approach when lawful visibility was lost.
An FO who could not self-separate from traffic OCTA and was setting us up for a TCAS RA..
On the otherhand, there are instances wher in the name of crew cohesion, I did not assert my view of what was the most safe/efficient plan of action and had to settle on a second best 'plan B'-all because the FO lacked the technical knowledge to understand that what I was proposing was safe, efficient and lawful. Because the FO was lacking in these areas, effieciency was compromised, however safety was not. FO was less than pleased when I told him to have a closer read of his books.


Quote:
Centaurus' post was a good one, however I too felt overtones of "superiority" as a Captain creeping though.

Not sure what you mean by this. I Think that Centaurus' view was quite balenced. Maybe I'm just an old pr!ck.

I'm not sure how you expect that you can vary the cockpit gradient. The FO is what he is, and you are what you are. I'm guessing that you suggest that you vary your tone, and whilst you might think that this varies the gradient, it most likely doesn't, it just irks the other pilot.

This is where respect and management comes into play. Instead of standing your ground and demanding that your FO comply with your requirements, as you imply, how about skillfully guiding your "mate" to what you believe to be the best outcome? This is good leadership, not just making demands.

The most surprising part of your post was this:

FO was less than pleased when I told him to have a closer read of his books.
I'm not surprised at the FO's reaction. If I were the FO I'd likely politely tell you where you could gracefully bend over and place the books! Are you a training Captain? Do you have the right to make a judgement? Did you politely discuss the issues first? Did you get out the books ytourself and show him or her with a degree of respect?

You have overtones in your post of superiority mixed with inexperience, Anthill, and I dont mean to critisise, but a little introspection prior to critisising someone else is a good thing.

Respect is of course, a two way street, and FO's should be mindful of this. So should Captains. I believe that this is the point of Centaurus' post, not CAR 224, and not the degree of the Captain's authority.
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Old 23rd Feb 2010, 20:19
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Exclamation

You have overtones in your post of superiority mixed with inexperience
Not that I am able at present to contribute in any useful way to this debate, although, as one who has had a few years of the two crew business , right seat and left seat, I do applaud the quality and insight of Centaurus's opening article, here's a rather flippant aside to the above remark, as it puts me in mind of what Berlioz said about the young Saint-Saens -

'He lacks everything but inexperience.'

Might also have been uttered by one of those hard bitten men that EKG so well portrays in "FATE IS THE HUNTER", no?

p.s. FOCX - give over with all those emicons, or you won't get your camel stamp.

Last edited by Fantome; 23rd Feb 2010 at 20:34.
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Old 23rd Feb 2010, 22:47
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The 4 Golden Rules for F/Os

1. "Good Landing Captain"

2. "How do you like your coffee Captain"

3. " I think the ugly one likes me"

4. "Its my fault Captain"

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Old 23rd Feb 2010, 23:50
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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You forgot

5. Yes, its my round Capt. What are you drinking?
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Old 23rd Feb 2010, 23:52
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Are you suggesting the FO shouldn't be adjusting radios and Navaids without running it past the captain first?

If this is the case there is surely no point in having multi crew cockpits. The captain could just do it all themselves.

Is this a wind up??
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Old 24th Feb 2010, 00:30
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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As a matter of historical interest, The Copilot's Lament first appeared in "The Airline Pilot" (Monthly journal of the US Air Line Pilots Association) in October 1942, after having been written in 1941 by Capt. Keith Murray, Eastern AL retired
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Old 24th Feb 2010, 00:41
  #32 (permalink)  
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The FO flying with the Axe Man of Apia
I should apologise for not making the story clear. The Axe-man of Apia was the first officer because ,like, you know,yeah - he had the bloody axe - not the captain.
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Old 24th Feb 2010, 03:39
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Are you suggesting the FO shouldn't be adjusting radios and Navaids without running it past the captain first?
Pay attention and learn. Centaurus said in his OP
Do not change radio or navaid selections without first advising the PF. Not only it is bad manners but can be distracting to the PF to see the RMI needle moving to a new position for no apparent reason.
Especially when one is approaching the minima on a non precision and see the needle moving to a new position for no apparent reason, because the other seat thought it a good idea to set up the nav for the next leg. To quote Fantome "He lacked everything but inexperience."
If this is the case there is surely no point in having multi crew cockpits. The captain could just do it all themselves.
Its not a one man band, its two (or more) people working in a coordinated fashion. Think teamwork.
Is this a wind up??
Hope you get the idea most definitely not. Reread the OP.
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Old 24th Feb 2010, 04:51
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks Cantaurus. I actually thought you were clear, so perhaps I wasn't.

For clarity - the Axe Man of Apia (read the F/O) did make a decision, in that he retrieved the axe and used it as an incentive. This was his decision.

Further, this should be viewed as an innovative technique, a bold new step forward in CRM, and a further useful tool for later on in the bar!
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Old 24th Feb 2010, 05:12
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Are you suggesting the FO shouldn't be adjusting radios and Navaids without running it past the captain first?
This one is relatively easy to get around. (Well I think anyway - for Boeing at least)

Boeing produced a book - (Normal Procedures part of Vol 1) - it tells you the areas of responsibility for PF and PNF. If the radios come under the PNFs responsibility then I don't really think he (if PNF is F/O) needs to request the Capts permission.


Can you imagine the flight deck.

XXX contact BNE centre 132.75. "Capt they have asked me to contact BNE centre - can I change COM1 to 132.75? "


Bwhahah.......bet you if you did that for every frequency change - you would no longer need permission!


Seriously some of you guys are so full of yourself.

Its flying a jet - it requires some common sense and a reasonable degree of intelligence. You are not launching a space shuttle. Some people are just put on this planet to make life difficult for others - must be some part of human nature or just a genuine desire to be malicious and boost ones own ego.
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Old 24th Feb 2010, 05:44
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I liked this post, although I think it appears to fit in the context of the type of career Centaurus has had (and no disrespect intended). Specifically the FO is characterised as someone in the early stages of their airline career who has no or limited experience as an airline captain.
The FO I last flew with is older than me and was previously a TRE on L1011s and 737s . The usual political and economic factors mean RHS rather than LHS.
He might be forgiven for a ruefull smile at Centaurus's post though would probably agree with the central point. I respect his experience and support and he respects my role as having the ultimate responsibility. And we both know that the way aviation goes those roles could be reversed next time we meet!
Could some of the old captains on this forum perform as well if circumstances put them in an FO position?
I know from experience that most are very cool, but the biggest point scoring, pain-in-the-arse, call-you-mate FOs I ever flew with were EX TRI/Es from dunnunda!
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Old 24th Feb 2010, 07:34
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Balence:

I'm not surprised at the FO's reaction. If I were the FO I'd likely politely tell you where you could gracefully bend over and place the books! Are you a training Captain? Do you have the right to make a judgement? Did you politely discuss the issues first? Did you get out the books ytourself and show him or her with a degree of respect?
[/quote]
Yes I did. Firstly in the air prior to TOPD and then also after shut-down. FO still refused to even consider what was printed in the manual. Case was refered to CP who agreed with my position.

I dont care how politely you were in telling me where to "place the books", Such a response would certainly get you Tea And Bikkies with the boss at any airline.

[quote]
FO's MUST make decisions for themselves, and if they don't then they have no right to be sitting in a cockpit. They must be encouraged, guided, trusted, mentored and respected. One day, a FO will likely pull me out of the sh1t, and I will owe him or her big time.
I agree with you. However, this does not in any way discount the issue of the burden of command. The FO has a worthy role in using innovation, intellect, experience and tact in supporting the Captain of making sound decisions.

If you as a Captain state that an FO can only make the decisions that you allow him too, then you are no better than the Captain who had the Axe held to him, and you have completely missed the point of good CRM.
I'll throw this back at you: Do you, as a Captain, allow your FOs to make operational decisions that you don't agree with? If so, you have a reversal of the Gradient of Command and this is a demonstrated safety threat.


You can hold any suspicion of

overtones in your post of superiority mixed with inexperience
However, they are not the foundation of sound arguement, have no rational or intellectual validity and add nothing to the debate.

BSD
I see you interpret "final" as "every
Oh? I didn't know that there was another way to interpret this. Does not the Captain have the final authortity on every aspect of the flight? Are there instances where the FO has 'final authority' on a flight that is being conducted in a lawful manner?

Last edited by Anthill; 24th Feb 2010 at 07:48.
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Old 24th Feb 2010, 08:06
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Good Read

Thanks Centaurus was a good read for me, something to think about for the future!
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Old 24th Feb 2010, 10:09
  #39 (permalink)  

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Are you suggesting the FO shouldn't be adjusting radios and Navaids without running it past the captain first?
Some times it's a good idea. A mate was passing about 2000' on an ILS, in the gloop, when the ILS display in the Boeing failed.

Unbeknown to him, F/O Bloggs had decided it would be a good idea to detune the ILS in favour of the VOR, and did it saying nothing until after the apparent failure.
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Old 24th Feb 2010, 10:27
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Same thing happened to me on approach one time albeit we had come visual. Suddenly ILS flags came up. The F/O had decided to retune the ILS frequencies to VOR. Very distracting as I was flying the Glide path not the VASI. A simple do you mind if I reset the frequencies would have been nice.
As far as the axe man goes having flown with a few Samoans in the past it does not surprise me one bit. Sometimes a Tad emotional and prone to rash reactions. Generally good value tho'
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