Merged: Big changes for Qantas cadets
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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I believe those of you stating that QF do not make money of the cadet program are slightly misguided.
QF outsources their cadet training to Swinburne and OAA.
For those not associated with QF, the same course costs $70,430
The Multi crew rating costs $8100 and the MECIR costs $16,630. Bringing us to a total of $95,160. Well below the costs of the QF cadet program.
I know the standard Swinburne course is the same as the QF cadet bachelor course because I know a QF cadet, and asked them.
Anyone that has been to Sydney for the QF cadet selection process can tell you that they make money off it, because I, correct me if I'm wrong, find it hard to believe that the cost price of completing an aptitude test is $200 per person.
QF outsources their cadet training to Swinburne and OAA.
For those not associated with QF, the same course costs $70,430
The Multi crew rating costs $8100 and the MECIR costs $16,630. Bringing us to a total of $95,160. Well below the costs of the QF cadet program.
I know the standard Swinburne course is the same as the QF cadet bachelor course because I know a QF cadet, and asked them.
Anyone that has been to Sydney for the QF cadet selection process can tell you that they make money off it, because I, correct me if I'm wrong, find it hard to believe that the cost price of completing an aptitude test is $200 per person.
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Hi Damo
Re the training I would think that the cost difference between the QF / Non QF route is the cost of the ATPL Theory. Big Difference I know given you can get a first class course with Nathan Higgins for a fraction of that price. I truly believe that QF do not make anything it is the schools that believe that as they have been selected as a QF cadet training provider it gives them the priviledge to charge a premium for doing the course. Call it 're-branding' if you like - companies have been doing it for years - doesn't make it right!!
Re the QF selection costs, the $200 for the aptitude test is not profit, QF have to pay for the use of the SHL aptitude test and the COMPASS test on a per use basis, don't know the exact figures but something close to if not higher that $200 springs to mind.
By offsetting these costs it gives QF the opportunity to invite more people in for testing andgives more people the opportunity to impress, the rest is up to the individual applicants. A fair way to go about it i think.
Re the training I would think that the cost difference between the QF / Non QF route is the cost of the ATPL Theory. Big Difference I know given you can get a first class course with Nathan Higgins for a fraction of that price. I truly believe that QF do not make anything it is the schools that believe that as they have been selected as a QF cadet training provider it gives them the priviledge to charge a premium for doing the course. Call it 're-branding' if you like - companies have been doing it for years - doesn't make it right!!
Re the QF selection costs, the $200 for the aptitude test is not profit, QF have to pay for the use of the SHL aptitude test and the COMPASS test on a per use basis, don't know the exact figures but something close to if not higher that $200 springs to mind.
By offsetting these costs it gives QF the opportunity to invite more people in for testing andgives more people the opportunity to impress, the rest is up to the individual applicants. A fair way to go about it i think.
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Dutch O its quite obvious that you have problems reading and deciphering the FACTS- so I'll try my best to keep it simple. 
First of all I've never stated "that QF cadets deserve spots over anyone else" (I'll recant on it if I have). I stated that 'a number of cadets believe that they deserve a job after paying x amount of $$$ and completing the training' (Two totally different statements and misquotes on your behalf).
Secondly I've never insinuated that YOU have stated that "QF cadets deserve spots over anyone else". I used a quote from you that stated
You were obviously talking about the pros of undertaking the cadetship of which I didnt misinterpret as I meant to use it to rebut your comment that I was making "bold statements" and to illustrate that, that is the belief of a majority of cadets i.e. pay the money + jump through all the hoops = presto airline job.......But that's not always the case as we, well some of us know.
Thirdly, once again stated by yourself
So why isnt this 'NEW cadetship attractive'???? Correct me if Im wrong..... because 'no turbo prop job, no DE assessments between CIPP and QF employment'.
To reiterate my comment so that there are no ambiguities or mis-quotes
Yourself now on two occasions have stated that the 'cadetship under the old system was attractive'. So I dont know what your problem is??? Either edit/delete your statements or think before you hit the submit button.
By the way
If thats the case you should learn to quote your source instead of writing it if its yours
(plagiarism)
First of all I've never stated "that QF cadets deserve spots over anyone else" (I'll recant on it if I have). I stated that 'a number of cadets believe that they deserve a job after paying x amount of $$$ and completing the training' (Two totally different statements and misquotes on your behalf).
Secondly I've never insinuated that YOU have stated that "QF cadets deserve spots over anyone else". I used a quote from you that stated
the things that made the cadetship attractive included having a turbo prop job supplied after training, NOT having to perform any direct entry assessments between CIPP and Qf emplyment and the prospect of seniority which has been in doubt lately.
Thirdly, once again stated by yourself
I used it as evidence to support my argument that this new cadetship is not attractive.
To reiterate my comment so that there are no ambiguities or mis-quotes
In my experience a number of cadets have this attitude that QF owes them a spot, i.e I paid this x amount of $$$ so they have to give me a job.
By the way
The facts i stated were sourced directly from the Qf website.
(plagiarism)
Last edited by Bo777; 28th Jan 2009 at 11:40.
To take away from this petty tiff, I still think the cadetship is just as attractive if not more attractive than previously.
You get to choose where you go; that means if I want to go work for a Flying School, or a charter mob out bush I can, in fact this is a pro, I would have rather spent the two years at least getting a taste of these mythical hard yards you all talk about rather than sit in QFLink. At the very least I'd rather work for a mob that flys to more unique places, remote Australia, Pacific etc. I will be flying to major cities for the rest of my life with QF.
The way finding the work was explained to me when I queried QF, made it sound not like cadets were stuck on there own to find the work entirely. I interpreted it more as how year 10 work experience works. It's your responsibility to find the placement but your careers advisor (QF) will help if you get stuck.
The DE test I think is merely another hurdle that although annoying is probably fair. There is no sim test prior to this for Cadets, its possible a guy is a great GA pilot, great in the charter world but struggles when he hits the airlines. In theory if we say that the cadets are the cream of the crop (which again many of you seem to believe they think), it shouldn't be hard for them at all!
The QF cadetship is still a very real option (but not the only one) for me at the end of this year, still the major disadvantage is not any of the new changes but cost, as it had been since I first heard of the cadetship all those years ago.
You get to choose where you go; that means if I want to go work for a Flying School, or a charter mob out bush I can, in fact this is a pro, I would have rather spent the two years at least getting a taste of these mythical hard yards you all talk about rather than sit in QFLink. At the very least I'd rather work for a mob that flys to more unique places, remote Australia, Pacific etc. I will be flying to major cities for the rest of my life with QF.
The way finding the work was explained to me when I queried QF, made it sound not like cadets were stuck on there own to find the work entirely. I interpreted it more as how year 10 work experience works. It's your responsibility to find the placement but your careers advisor (QF) will help if you get stuck.
The DE test I think is merely another hurdle that although annoying is probably fair. There is no sim test prior to this for Cadets, its possible a guy is a great GA pilot, great in the charter world but struggles when he hits the airlines. In theory if we say that the cadets are the cream of the crop (which again many of you seem to believe they think), it shouldn't be hard for them at all!
The QF cadetship is still a very real option (but not the only one) for me at the end of this year, still the major disadvantage is not any of the new changes but cost, as it had been since I first heard of the cadetship all those years ago.
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McGrath, you're wrong though. Realistically what are you going to say in an interview? Hi, I'm a Qantas cadet trying to find my own Industry Placement. Qantas says I need to work for you for two years and I hope I get a job with you.
The employer is in a good position to say no! Why train up someone that you know is buggering off in two years or potentially even less?
The employer is in a good position to say no! Why train up someone that you know is buggering off in two years or potentially even less?
I would have rather spent the two years at least getting a taste of these mythical hard yards you all talk about rather than sit in QFLink.
It's your responsibility to find the placement but your careers advisor (QF) will help if you get stuck.
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"the cream identified early", you've got to be joking, more like those who have access to the required cash in a 1 year time frame.
As for trained to the highest standard, also false. Trained to a good standard yes but not the best. The problem comes after the cadet is flying in the airline, there is very little training development given to them. If you look at the path of an airforce pilot, once on a operational squadron they fly many flt simulator flights, in addition there are many training sorties in the actual aircraft. For example on the P3 Orion, thee are pilot diversion trainers, 4 hours in the circuit quite regularly, tactical exercise training. Whereas take a Qantas cadet, after completing the 6 session conversion and 1 training trip he is then checked to line. Over the next few years he will not do an approach or landing for many years. For FO training you get 2 hours of circuit training in the aircraft then that's it. Every other training exercise is in the sim. And while a second officer, the cyclic training is an absolute joke. There is very little loft training, just trying to tick the CASA matrix box by doing approaches you will never fly ie 16 TWIN LOC MEL. The 280 series ramped training is a attempt at some form of development training but there is usually no time to do this complete the exercises.
As for trained to the highest standard, also false. Trained to a good standard yes but not the best. The problem comes after the cadet is flying in the airline, there is very little training development given to them. If you look at the path of an airforce pilot, once on a operational squadron they fly many flt simulator flights, in addition there are many training sorties in the actual aircraft. For example on the P3 Orion, thee are pilot diversion trainers, 4 hours in the circuit quite regularly, tactical exercise training. Whereas take a Qantas cadet, after completing the 6 session conversion and 1 training trip he is then checked to line. Over the next few years he will not do an approach or landing for many years. For FO training you get 2 hours of circuit training in the aircraft then that's it. Every other training exercise is in the sim. And while a second officer, the cyclic training is an absolute joke. There is very little loft training, just trying to tick the CASA matrix box by doing approaches you will never fly ie 16 TWIN LOC MEL. The 280 series ramped training is a attempt at some form of development training but there is usually no time to do this complete the exercises.
more like those who have access to the required cash in a 1 year time frame.
but sure, lets not let the facts get in the way of a good story.........
Wooby i completely agree with you about the training.....the Sim stuff and the 280 stuff is not really much use, just a good chance to have a bit of a fly aroud really. While there is still some benefit, i reckon i get more by doig a fbs and just mucking around...
Bo777...seriously, either you're going for some kind of a windup, or you really believe what you say. Either way, your ignorance astounds me.....
you clearly have no idea about cadets or the program in general. Sure, there may be a few that think the world owes them everything. Just the same as there are a few GA guys who think the world owes them everything. They are not traits of which background they are from, rather its is them as individuals.
At the end of the day, everyone goes through the same hoops at QF regardless of the background.
I noted with interest that on another thread you were quite anxious about QF recruiting. If you got in, good on you, if you didnt, better luck next time. But seriously, if, in the interview stage, QF had said, we have cadets, they have seniority blah blah blah...would you have turned down the job or withdrawn your application?? Doubt it. So if you are in, you accepted the position for what it was, and all the great stuff and the very small amount of bad stuff that comes with it. Deal with it, get the chip off your shoulder, and move on. Or keep bagging out cadets. Bet you dont have the guts to do it to their faces though...
Mr. Wooby,
Who wouldn't rather fly a Hornet (or whatever). But I have heard RAAF pilots are only flying a few hundred hours a year - many less than airline pilots. Couple that with the fact you can (will?) get tours of duty that involve not flying, it evens the playing field a bit in the which is better race.
Who wouldn't rather fly a Hornet (or whatever). But I have heard RAAF pilots are only flying a few hundred hours a year - many less than airline pilots. Couple that with the fact you can (will?) get tours of duty that involve not flying, it evens the playing field a bit in the which is better race.
