Merged: Big changes for Qantas cadets
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I agree with the changes they have made and knowing some of the people in play, most have accepted the changes and will continue on with their applications. I think QF will still 'oversee' all aspects of the cadet program (including CIPP) and having pipelines into Instructing and other areas (rather than just QFLink) will assist with their experience based longterm.
QF apparently does not make any money out of the cadet program (was clearly stated at this years road show). The money is all attributed to the uni/school. Some of you are also forgetting that the cost also involves an Associate Degree, expensive Multi Crew simulator course, and the Gas turbine rating - hence the $115K (or more).
If people interested in Aviation chose to undertake this option, with QF supporting them through, then why should we stop them - why shouldn't they have the choice. Let them be old enough and ugly enough to make that decision for themselves !!
And for them completing testing at the end of CIPP - bring it on. It goes to show that the new CP must be diligent enough to ensure that the standards of all Cadets, post CIPP, are up to scratch !
QF apparently does not make any money out of the cadet program (was clearly stated at this years road show). The money is all attributed to the uni/school. Some of you are also forgetting that the cost also involves an Associate Degree, expensive Multi Crew simulator course, and the Gas turbine rating - hence the $115K (or more).
If people interested in Aviation chose to undertake this option, with QF supporting them through, then why should we stop them - why shouldn't they have the choice. Let them be old enough and ugly enough to make that decision for themselves !!
And for them completing testing at the end of CIPP - bring it on. It goes to show that the new CP must be diligent enough to ensure that the standards of all Cadets, post CIPP, are up to scratch !
Absolute dribble alright. I've said it before and i'll say it again too. I'm not a betting man but I would be pretty confident in saying that if those who are so anti-cadet were offered a slot on the program back when they were first starting their career they would have an entirely different view. I got a cadetship (and yes, after working in GA and outside aviation) and have moved 3 times as part of of my CIPP. I know more than one mate who missed out on the same cadet program, instructed in their home city and got a QF gig direct entry well before my 2 years were up. Am I bitter at them for the path that they took? Hell no. I may not have done THY that everyone seems to think that every airline pilot should, but it too hasn't been a golden goose handed on a silver platter. Wake up and smell the roses
So Brown Hornet? Who's going to be higher on the seniority list, you or him? 
That's my only beef with the current arrangement, hopefully the changes will go some way to addressing that.
That's my only beef with the current arrangement, hopefully the changes will go some way to addressing that.
TL, nice rhetorical question. I'm not even going to touch that one other than to say how can that be used as an incentive for the blatantly obvious dislike of cadets shown by a heap of people....Maybe the program / management but not the individuals on it. Not all cadets agree with it either, to the disbelief of many I'm sure!
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The Qantas cadet scheme has been primarily a Captain's son, Masonic handshake carte blanche entry scheme, since it's inception. "Other ranks " were accepted purely to give a veneer of acceptability.
Nunc est bibendum
Like I said, it's an argument used by those too lazy to come up with anything more substantial. 
Ironic that one's background (cadet or otherwise) barely rates a mention in QF. Lots of comment about whether particular individuals can actually do the job or not though. I don't think my name has appeared in the overhead hatch yet!
Ironic that one's background (cadet or otherwise) barely rates a mention in QF. Lots of comment about whether particular individuals can actually do the job or not though. I don't think my name has appeared in the overhead hatch yet!
Well said 2ndGen.
I think the point is not so much whether Cadets are a better product than their GA counterparts, or even which side of the fence has endured more hardship. This debate has been going on for as long as there have been Cadets, and I think it's safe to say the jury is still out. That in itself should sum it up.
The point is, are people being treated fairly? Are motivated and idealistic young people (most young candidates, not just Cadets), once again being shafted because of the shortsighted ineptitude of airline management.
H.R. Give me a break! These people (you all know who I mean) couldn't manage a chook raffle at the local!
I think the point is not so much whether Cadets are a better product than their GA counterparts, or even which side of the fence has endured more hardship. This debate has been going on for as long as there have been Cadets, and I think it's safe to say the jury is still out. That in itself should sum it up.
The point is, are people being treated fairly? Are motivated and idealistic young people (most young candidates, not just Cadets), once again being shafted because of the shortsighted ineptitude of airline management.
H.R. Give me a break! These people (you all know who I mean) couldn't manage a chook raffle at the local!
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SkyScanner, I left out RAAF pilots for obvious reasons, and GA instructors normally have had a few years of flying in the bush, or have certainly gained experience, flying freight, etc, I am talking about 18 yr olds, on, still wet behind the ears, never been away from home, but ready to fly the coop so to speak. There is nothing better then for these kids than to go to Kununurra or Darwin etc, certainly better than starting out in a Sim, as was stated in the Australian last friday, (after a few flying lessons) like instant coffee, instant First Officers! I don't give a ratz about your glass cockpits, and future technology, the bloody things are still aeroplanes, and still need AIRMANSHIP on the flight deck. And paddock bashing is still one of the best teachers. If QF are sending their cadets to the bush, then good on them, to be sent to New Guinea is probably the best training of all, but not all are so lucky as we were,early skills can never be learnt out of a manual, or on a Sim, and I hope to God it never comes to that, but it is certainly heading that way.
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If GA in Australia continues to decline, where do most people think well trained, qualified candidates will come from. In the UK, there is no GA to speak of, as it has been regulated out of existence, with the reason that there is no space for it and its cost is way too high. The self improver (school of hard knocks) in the UK is not an option anymore as this avenue has been squeezed so that flying schools are what is required.
The bulk of airlines in Europe take on low hour well trained pilots. Yes they dont have a bag of experience but this is chicken and egg stuff. If GA doesnt exist how do you get the experience?
Not everyone whom is a cadet is on a winner from the bank of mum and dad!!!
I know I wasnt and I tell you it was quite a stressful period of my life and for my family. For the cadet bashers, if you were offered the opportunity wouldnt you take it?
What is important that the product of any 'cadet' schemes is a well trained and mature individual that will fit into the operation and will soak up experience as it comes, be aware that they will cock things up and when they do, learn from the mistakes. It also means that guys in the left hand seat may have to share their experience readily as with modern aircraft reliable systems mean that non normal events occur less frequently than years ago. Lets face it we cant all be skyg*ds on day one
The bulk of airlines in Europe take on low hour well trained pilots. Yes they dont have a bag of experience but this is chicken and egg stuff. If GA doesnt exist how do you get the experience?
Not everyone whom is a cadet is on a winner from the bank of mum and dad!!!
I know I wasnt and I tell you it was quite a stressful period of my life and for my family. For the cadet bashers, if you were offered the opportunity wouldnt you take it?
What is important that the product of any 'cadet' schemes is a well trained and mature individual that will fit into the operation and will soak up experience as it comes, be aware that they will cock things up and when they do, learn from the mistakes. It also means that guys in the left hand seat may have to share their experience readily as with modern aircraft reliable systems mean that non normal events occur less frequently than years ago. Lets face it we cant all be skyg*ds on day one
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Because I don't know where to start with some so-called "arguments" on this thread - a couple of definitions will put my point as concisely as possible:
Arrogance - "The way I did it is the best way."
Ignorance - "The way I did it is the only way."
Done. Next!
Arrogance - "The way I did it is the best way."
Ignorance - "The way I did it is the only way."
Done. Next!
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Brown_hornet,
I don't have a problem with cadets. I do have a problem with the fact that these guys/gals get 2 years seniority in QF when doing their CIPP. Joining the company with seniority over direct entry pilots and therefore having seniority for bidding/promotion/leave etc is outrageous and makes an absolute joke out of the seniority list. Worst still, when you hear these guys bragging about it in the coffee room on day one....well....you can imagine what some of us think.
I don't have a problem with cadets. I do have a problem with the fact that these guys/gals get 2 years seniority in QF when doing their CIPP. Joining the company with seniority over direct entry pilots and therefore having seniority for bidding/promotion/leave etc is outrageous and makes an absolute joke out of the seniority list. Worst still, when you hear these guys bragging about it in the coffee room on day one....well....you can imagine what some of us think.
Last edited by Tempo; 12th Jan 2009 at 00:33.
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You can't generalise about one background over another. They all contain a small percentage of people who should be doing something other than aviation for a living.
After many years in the left seat I can tell you some of the most noticeable battlers come from pilots who joined the airline later, eg mid thirties or later. You wonder where they have been previously and why it took them so long to surface in the right seat. And surface doing it badly.
Of airforce types I observe there are two groups: either sh*t hot operators or a few real battlers who would make better academics than pilots. Probably would be excellent lawyers or working a desk in CASA marking time until the retirement payout comes along.
Cadets, likewise. But mostly I see young pilots with skills and appreciation of whats going on around them that belies their young age. But then there are a few rich silver spoon types who are obviously in the wrong job. Daddy would have been better off paying for some other form of education for them.
Like any profession we are a wide and varied group of people.
After many years in the left seat I can tell you some of the most noticeable battlers come from pilots who joined the airline later, eg mid thirties or later. You wonder where they have been previously and why it took them so long to surface in the right seat. And surface doing it badly.
Of airforce types I observe there are two groups: either sh*t hot operators or a few real battlers who would make better academics than pilots. Probably would be excellent lawyers or working a desk in CASA marking time until the retirement payout comes along.
Cadets, likewise. But mostly I see young pilots with skills and appreciation of whats going on around them that belies their young age. But then there are a few rich silver spoon types who are obviously in the wrong job. Daddy would have been better off paying for some other form of education for them.
Like any profession we are a wide and varied group of people.
Tempo, as I say, myself and others I know don't necessarily agree with the seniority issue either. If some are dumb / arrogant enough to boast about it on day 1 in the coffee room well trust me, I would smartly exit the room too
But that issue the cadet has no control over and is hardly basis for slagging off and believing cadets don't 'deserve' their place in QF as much as a GA driver as some people seem to conclude.
But that issue the cadet has no control over and is hardly basis for slagging off and believing cadets don't 'deserve' their place in QF as much as a GA driver as some people seem to conclude.
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If they have changed the CIPP, I hope they (QANTAS) do the right thing and back date their seniority to when they passed year 4 maths at primary school. It would only be "fair".
Dear Brown Hornet
You had to move 3 times - are you ok? If I were you, I wouldnt care If your mate got in direct entry before you. You will have no blank lines except for your first pattern. You will have have access to holidays before your mate and you will forever have bidding rights and the right to upgrade well before your direct entry mate all while never earning a cent for the Qantas Mainline. Im glad you can overlook the fact that he /she got in before you.
Dear Brown Hornet
have moved 3 times as part of of my CIPP. I know more than one mate who missed out on the same cadet program, instructed in their home city and got a QF gig direct entry well before my 2 years were up. Am I bitter at them for the path that they took? Hell no. I may not have done THY that everyone seems to think that every airline pilot should, but it too hasn't been a golden goose handed on a silver platter. Wake up and smell the roses
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The seniority issue has been done to death....both here and on qrewroom. It sucks..but its over. Either we can accept it and move on, or continue to use it as a reason to bag cadets and the cadet program. QF is a bloody good gig, however you get there. Everyone passes the same set of tests, the same sim's, and (for the mostpart) the same endorsement/promotion courses. Isnt that enough??? Jebus, next we'll be bagging people based on their ethnic group or religion. Typical pilots...we're not happy unless we are bitching and moaning about something. Does the fact that someone else who YOU decide doesnt deserve to be more senior than you, or even be there at all, affect the enjoyment of your job?? If it does, then you may as well go and join the dole queue......it doesnt matter what profession you're in, there will always be someone who YOU think doesnt deserve what they've got. Either accept it and move on, or continue living with that giant chip on your shoulder.
Last edited by astroboy55; 12th Jan 2009 at 10:40.
drshmoo, you are right and I agree it may not be the correct way of doing things. But i'll say it again, how is that my or any other cadet's doing? My post wasn't me attempting to convince the likes of you that woe is me and I've done THY. Unfortunately issues such as these leave a sour taste in some people's mouth to the extent that they won't even socialise and have a beer with someone whom they know is a cadet, and I'm not just talking about mainline but the regionals too. If that's how they want to deal with the company's way of doing things then so be it.
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brown_hornet,
I have not heard of any cadets who are pushing for LOA161 to be removed and have the seniority of the direct entry guys who have been shafted correctly adjusted. Why don't you start the cadet campaign and get some momentum towards having it reversed?
And what about the cadet doing the CIPP who decided to contribute to the Qrewroom discussion regarding LOA161. He was crying poor that the removal of LOA161 was 'unfair' because he was of the understanding that he would have 2 years worth of seniority once joining. Poor bloke, having to fly a turbine RPT as a first job and then getting shafted by having to start at the bottom once in mainline. He certainly didn't get a lot of sympathy.....oh thats right...one senior captain in QF was backing his case. Turns out this senior captain has a daughter in the CIPP.
I have not heard of any cadets who are pushing for LOA161 to be removed and have the seniority of the direct entry guys who have been shafted correctly adjusted. Why don't you start the cadet campaign and get some momentum towards having it reversed?
And what about the cadet doing the CIPP who decided to contribute to the Qrewroom discussion regarding LOA161. He was crying poor that the removal of LOA161 was 'unfair' because he was of the understanding that he would have 2 years worth of seniority once joining. Poor bloke, having to fly a turbine RPT as a first job and then getting shafted by having to start at the bottom once in mainline. He certainly didn't get a lot of sympathy.....oh thats right...one senior captain in QF was backing his case. Turns out this senior captain has a daughter in the CIPP.