Merged: Big changes for Qantas cadets

[Mstr Caution]

I'm not ex cadet but have been in the industry over two decades:

It's hardly a cadet scheme any more if you have to find your own industry placement

Probably associated with another thread seen recently whereas industry placement wasn't gauranteed at the end of the cadet training. If the jobs aren't there, how can industry placement be gauranteed.

then line up for testing with the direct entry applicants at the end of it

I would expect, even in the past. Mainline placement wasn't gauranteed post industry placement & even though there may not have been published criteria, the industry placement & on the job performance at the time was the DE selection process.

all you have left is direct entry

On day one on the job both Direct Entries & Cadets are possibly all on the same course. So isnt the end result (disregarding seniority) all the same. That a bunch of recruits all start on the same day. Just how they got there differs.

I've never seen the need for a cadet program anyway

Cadet programs aren't always run for the reasons immediatley apparent. A former Deputy CP would be able to brief you all about that.

It probably reflects recent changes to QANTAS recruiting in general....

Or a downtown in the airline industry in general, forward bookings & flying plans will reflect that.

Does this mean that the QF cadets after doing the course and having gone and done some time in "ga" then have to front up and do the DE process with the same chances of being ruled out as the DE guys?

I would expect that if QF haven't got a close asscociation with where the cadet is placed. They have no idea of on the job performance whilst employed at that entity. If you were employing someone for your organisation & hadnt seen them for a few years would you like to take another sneak peek prior to recruiting someone.

the facts are if people leaving school see aviation as a career (read reward for investment) they will put all their energy into it, via training and gaining experience

The same is true for both cadet & non cadet.

get a real job you snotty nose little punks like the rest of us instead of getting a golden goose on a silver platter soon after leaving high school!!

Muff - Some choose to pay for an endorsement to get a job, others pay for a cadetship to get a job. With a statement like that you obviously have no idea as to the vast differences in background skills & work / life experiences outside aviation that some cadets have. Ever considered that some might be taking substantial paycuts to become a cadet?

Now that there is no assurance, who the hell is going to pay 100k +

As far as I can recall, there has never been any assurances of a job at the end. Just like DE, applicants have had to pass the training & get thru the probation.

Personally I think this action by QF is a bit short sighted. Time will tell whether I'm right.

Cadetships in any industry can stop or start as quick as saying "industry downturn" or "pilot shortage"

MC

[myshoutcaptain]

chances of seeing a Qf Cadet on industry placement overnighting at Forrest River with a old C206

[mcgrath50]

From what I have heard the CIPP will still be overseen by QF.

I got the impression it would operate how Work Experience does for Year 10 students, QF will point you in the right direction and council you but it is you that has to knuckle down and ask around for the right place.

It also means if a cadet wants to fly in the Pacific then they can, instruct they can. This will mean cadets with more diverse backgrounds than just working for QFLink of Air North. To me this is a positive move?

[Mstr Caution]

From what I have heard the CIPP will still be overseen by QF

Depends how receptive the particular business is to the overseeing

[Tempo]

Mstr Caution,

Cadet seniority is something that many direct entry guys cannot disregard. Speak to any direct entry guy who joined post feb 2004 and I can tell you that they are extremely p*%ed off at the company and the union for allowing such a situation to develop. Reserving seniority for those on the CIPP is an absolute joke and all it does is highlight how narrow minded the previous CP and union president were. Fingers crossed the cadet program will die a quick death and QF scrap this dated and time expired cadet program. Bring on a level playing field for all applicants and a fair system of seniority allocation.

Keg,

The spin doctor that was Chris Manning would like you to believe that QF needs the cadet program. How many times have we heard that there are not enough suitably qualified GA/Air Force applicants out there. This is absolute rubbish. I think many of us know plenty of guys who have applied to QF, been rejected and now find themselves in the Left/Right seat of an A320/A330 with Jetstar or Virgin. Good enough to fly for Jetstar/Virgin but not good enough for QF????? I don't think so. To insist on a cadet program because of the excuse that there are not enough direct entry applicants is smoke and mirrors.

[Mstr Caution]

Tempo - Hence my comment "disregarding seniority" issues. From my point of view (seniority aside) it doesn't matter whether a guy/girl comes from GA, Airforce, Cadetship or NASA.

[astroboy55]

Tempo, Muff et al...

Seniority/cadets/CIPP/Paid for a job blah blah blah. Get over it. It is what it is. It aint gonna change. Maybe the cadet program will die out, maybe it wont. If it does, when the economy turns around...you can bet your bottom dollar it will be back quick smart.
Just because someone has done time in GA, doesnt mean they automatically deserve a place in QF/J*/VB whatever. There are plenty of nuff nuffs who think they 'own' a slot in these airlines just because they've been in GA. Pisses me right off. To balance the above...i completely agree that there are some cadets and people from other flying backgrounds that are also muppets, and also believe a slot is theirs. Again pisses me off. Anyone who got into these airlines did so ON THEIR OWN MERITS....no-one should be ostracised etc just because of their backgrounds.

[teresa green]

I agree with the "old school" thinking. If a S/O has not beaten himself/herself around the bush for a few years scaring the Cr$p out of themselves on a least one occasion, then they are not much use to a airline. You cannot build a safe brick wall, unless you have a good foundation. In a word "Airmanship" cannot be learnt in a Sim, no matter how hard they try to tell you it can. With 24,000 hrs,16,000 on Jets, and check and training over 20 yrs, you can always tell a kid who has learnt the hard way. The only way. I have three flying, including a female, they were told to go bush, Daddy was not going to pay for something they had to learn, and learn they did, and some horror stories came out of it,(like having to live in a car, and live four to a room)!! but they look back on that time and are grateful for it, the time they spent in the bush. They are all in Airline jobs now and travelling well. That nonsense that was printed in the Australian last Friday, shows you which way it is all heading, "Instant F/O??!!" madness.

[bushy]

Instant airline pilot??

Many flying schools have been promoting the "instant airline pilot" and ICUS for decades, and this is just not realistsic.
But they sucked a lot of people in and overpopulated the unemployed pilot numbers, destroying T&C's in GA..

[David Brent]

Cadetship=Nepotism for QF Captains

If Aus is really that short of pilots hen maybe they'd really need an untrained 18 year old gen y son of a QF Captain operating their aircraft.

[A Comfy Chair]

David Brent.

That old chestnut. Ever asked how many of the cadets from the last few years are sons of Qantas captains?

I'd suggest the answer might well surprise you.

[Keg]

The nepotism charge is only ever made by those who are too lazy to form a coherent argument against the cadetship. Many of those that resort to the nepotism charge do so because to admit otherwise may be force them to look in the mirror. They often don't like what they see. 1990-1991, less than 10% were 'sons (or daughters) of'.

[teresa green]

Who gives a ratz what their father does for a living, this father sent his kids to the bush, if they want to fly, then then they will learn from bottom up. You pray they don't kill themselves, and I have to admit it was a worrying time especially when they had single engine jobs over water, and I could have paid to have a nice cozy cadetship (especially my daughter) but no they went bush, and loved it. I have no regrets, they have no regrets, and they look back and say it was the best flying they ever did, and the old man was not as stupid and mean as previously thought.

[cleared]

Dont quite understand why every thread always ends up as a Qantas Cadet bashing!

Muff Hunter why so angry? What did a cadet ever do to you to think of them like that?

It's funny how there is alot of cadet bashing but very little cadets firing back at you guys.

I know many of the current cadets and for the most they are not straight out of school and are very nice capable people who do NOT have Qantas Captain fathers. The cadetship may have been different in the past, but it is no longer as everyone makes it out to be, so quit the slagging.

Yes there are some arrogant people in there (like there is in any industry including GA and military) but for the most they have done the hard yards and continue to work as hard as possible to maintain their spot in the cadetship. Like mentioned earlier by others many of the cadets have taken pay cuts to be in the class, refinanced homes and are still trying to come up with the money to complete the course.

As far as big changes go, the CIPP is NOT guaranteed for the current cadets (and hasn't been for a while) and they went in knowing that. As far as most thinking that they go straight into mainline, they are mistaken, yes on occasion this occurs but vary rarely, the majority will complete an industry placement (this can include being an instructor/flying charter and if lucky RPT) for a min of 2years, not directly into the left seat of an A380.

It appears that some think that cadetships are just handed out and that the cadets dont work hard to get accepted and maintain a high standard throughout the entire course and if offered CIPP. Wrong they work hard just as private students work hard to get their licenses and exams done. only difference is that a cadet is constantly under scrutiny to perform at the highest of standards.

Thankyou to the people who understand that it does not make a difference what background you came from , just because they were a cadet does not mean that they are 'snotty', 'rich', or as some may think ill-qualified. They will work just as hard as GA guys when it come times to employment.

Why have a cadetship when there are so many qualified GA pilots for DE? well it doesn't do any harm does it? Oh sorry some think that it is taking away the GA guys position. Why do you deserve it more than a cadet? You both deserve it as much as each other. You both worked hard for it.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Chaps
I dont get it, whats the diff if you pay for your cadetship or you pay for your endo?

Dont kill me here this is not my sector of the industry but I am thinking of going RPT Jet.

Seems like you pay no matter.

I have 6300TT
1700 Night Command
5000+ Multi
4000+Multi TP Command

I dont have to justify my place in the industry, I just don't want to be made to feel guilty if I pay for an endo when cadets are paying out that sort of cash.

SN

[mcgrath50]

Soup Nazi,

It only makes a difference to those few bitter people who are the loudest here

[KRUSTY 34]

From what I can see, a Cadetship (for the candidate) is a means by which he/she can embark on an "airline" career without the uncertainty, and risk, (both financial & personal) than the more traditional "up through the ranks" path. It seems now however that those lines have been blurred.

Welcome to the world of airline management! They've killed off the better part of G/A with their inexorable attacks on wages and conditions, now they are driving the last of the nails into the coffin of the few remaining youngsters willing to take them at their word!

Good luck finding enough drivers in the future

[SkyScanner]

If a S/O has not beaten himself/herself around the bush for a few years scaring the Cr$p out of themselves on a least one occasion, then they are not much use to a airline

So what about all of those that have come from the airforce or used their time in G/A instructing for a few years? Absolute dribble

[rmcdonal]

Quote:
If a S/O has not beaten himself/herself around the bush for a few years scaring the Cr$p out of themselves on a least one occasion, then they are not much use to a airline

So what about all of those that have come from the airforce or used their time in G/A instructing for a few years? Absolute dribble

I imagine that both Airforce and Instructors have just as many hairs on their chest as a charter pilot out bush.

[Qanchor]

Cleared:
"Dont quite understand why every thread always ends up as a Qantas Cadet bashing!"

I've said it before & I'll say it again,
"It's not the new generation cadets that give cadets a bad name"