QF EBA Voted Down
Nunc est bibendum
What the, don't misunderstand my point. I'm no advocate of EBA 8 as proposed. There were some aspects of it which were quite good. There were some aspects that could have been a lot better. There was much misinformation and misunderstanding on Qrewroom and my intent there was to simply point out when people had it woefully wrong. I have indicated on Qrewroom the areas where I felt EBA8 could be tidied up for the mutual benefit of QF and us.
However, 650 pages says we're not competitive and that there is significant room for improvement. I didn't listen to Woodeye to work that out, I've believed that for the last 13 1/2 years and I've got a pretty big network of contacts who fly in lots of different places around the world (and most of them on pretty good coin) and the deals they're on also indicate we're not competitive. I'm certainly not advocating selling the farm for peanuts which IS ultimately what EBA8 tried to do. What I suggest is that we find the ways to become more efficient and with those efficiencies and simplification should come commensurate pay rises and guarantees about career progress onto future replacement and expansion aircraft types.
Many of those advocating EBA7++ have never mentioned the long term important things and I'd be appalled if we took the short sighted view that a couple of 5% pay rises would do OK without getting the long term career issues sorted out.
PS: If you've read this evening's AIPA insights then what is needed is definitely option B.
However, 650 pages says we're not competitive and that there is significant room for improvement. I didn't listen to Woodeye to work that out, I've believed that for the last 13 1/2 years and I've got a pretty big network of contacts who fly in lots of different places around the world (and most of them on pretty good coin) and the deals they're on also indicate we're not competitive. I'm certainly not advocating selling the farm for peanuts which IS ultimately what EBA8 tried to do. What I suggest is that we find the ways to become more efficient and with those efficiencies and simplification should come commensurate pay rises and guarantees about career progress onto future replacement and expansion aircraft types.
Many of those advocating EBA7++ have never mentioned the long term important things and I'd be appalled if we took the short sighted view that a couple of 5% pay rises would do OK without getting the long term career issues sorted out.
PS: If you've read this evening's AIPA insights then what is needed is definitely option B.
Last edited by Keg; 17th Sep 2008 at 11:50.
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Keg,
a) is achievable whilst b) is a pipedream. EBA 8 as presented is dead. 76% of the pilot body said so.
What do you drop out of the Woods/Duggan proposal to pay for
It was already rejected because it was
The amount of tweaking required would make the Magna Carta look like Bananas in Pyjamas.
Any talk of the Woods/Duggan proposal remaining alive is just political spin.
Tie up the last two years of back pay. That gets the money hungry happy as the last two years are in their pocket. So EBA 7 ++.
Now focus on what is acceptable to the pilots and what is sustainable (there's that word) not just what Woods/Duggan think is a fair trade (uncosted) and what Oldmeadow/QF I.R. think they can screw the pilots for.
Work on a mutually agreeable deal (even COM didn't endorse this one, although Woods tells them they did) with real benefits to both parties. If this takes 12 months then who cares (already been back paid for the last two years and on the higher hourly rates now)
I disagree with you. Option B would require so many offsets that it would in no way resemble what was previously tabled and all of the offsets would disadvantage further the pilot group. That's why it's called an offset.
Funny part is that I think this vote became a Money vs Lifestyle choice and would you believe it, the bloody pilots choose lifestyle. Who would have thought?
a) is achievable whilst b) is a pipedream. EBA 8 as presented is dead. 76% of the pilot body said so.
What do you drop out of the Woods/Duggan proposal to pay for
a better combination of terms and conditions, remuneration and career progress.
selling the farm for peanuts....
Any talk of the Woods/Duggan proposal remaining alive is just political spin.
Tie up the last two years of back pay. That gets the money hungry happy as the last two years are in their pocket. So EBA 7 ++.
Now focus on what is acceptable to the pilots and what is sustainable (there's that word) not just what Woods/Duggan think is a fair trade (uncosted) and what Oldmeadow/QF I.R. think they can screw the pilots for.
Work on a mutually agreeable deal (even COM didn't endorse this one, although Woods tells them they did) with real benefits to both parties. If this takes 12 months then who cares (already been back paid for the last two years and on the higher hourly rates now)
I disagree with you. Option B would require so many offsets that it would in no way resemble what was previously tabled and all of the offsets would disadvantage further the pilot group. That's why it's called an offset.
Funny part is that I think this vote became a Money vs Lifestyle choice and would you believe it, the bloody pilots choose lifestyle. Who would have thought?
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Membership to be surveyed.....say about a month.
Negotiators to go back to the company and put the revised demands forward....another month or so.
Costings, etc, posturing, etc, argey bargey....another month or so.
Personally I'd be astounded if we were to vote on a revised offer any time prior to the week or so before Christmas. More than likely we're looking at the new year. That's two years after EBA7 expired.
Negotiators to go back to the company and put the revised demands forward....another month or so.
Costings, etc, posturing, etc, argey bargey....another month or so.
Personally I'd be astounded if we were to vote on a revised offer any time prior to the week or so before Christmas. More than likely we're looking at the new year. That's two years after EBA7 expired.
Member survey? Spare me the pain. I want something done now not a damn survey that will only demonstrate the bleeding obvious. What are the com waiting for haven't they learnt anything from the gingerbeers?
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Why not try to get a log of claims or such like going prior to the November board meeting.
All those long term vested shares mature then don't they.
Get the share price below the vested cutoff price, wouldn't that be a spiffing parting gift for Geoff from the Qantas pilot body!
I wonder what Geoff would pay to get the EBA signed off in order to keep his million$?
I wonder if management has considered this?
All those long term vested shares mature then don't they.
Get the share price below the vested cutoff price, wouldn't that be a spiffing parting gift for Geoff from the Qantas pilot body!
I wonder what Geoff would pay to get the EBA signed off in order to keep his million$?
I wonder if management has considered this?
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A motion was put to the last COM meeting to start a log of claims and a protected bargaining period, which was rejected by the brave new world of the alternate president and his supporters. Go figure....
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Is this the same guy that supported the selling off of QF to the equity groups ? and now he's leading an alternative group ? Who supports this path of stupidity ?
Guys and Gals of AIPA, Lodge now for PIA, Send a message home to the company and a shudder down their spine there is no way they will want to enter a second industrial dispute this year as the last one almost killed em
GO FOR IT THE WORLD IS YOUR QYSTER oooops
OYSTER
Guys and Gals of AIPA, Lodge now for PIA, Send a message home to the company and a shudder down their spine there is no way they will want to enter a second industrial dispute this year as the last one almost killed em
GO FOR IT THE WORLD IS YOUR QYSTER oooops
OYSTER
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Dear Mr Fixit,
Based on the info below which comes from the techies own chat room, it doesn't look like AIPA is planning on going down the path of PIA just yet. Looks to me as if Woodsy is content to keep battling. Do you think his political opponent has got any more balls?
Rgds
Ginger
Based on the info below which comes from the techies own chat room, it doesn't look like AIPA is planning on going down the path of PIA just yet. Looks to me as if Woodsy is content to keep battling. Do you think his political opponent has got any more balls?
Rgds
Ginger
AIPA Committee of Management Meeting - 26 September 2008
BE IT RESOLVED that the President is directed to propose to Qantas senior management Qantas’ agreeing, inter alia, pay rises nominally effective 31 December 2006/7, and instituting correctly indexed meal allowances effective the annual review date whilst AIPA determines how best to progress a new collective agreement acceptable to AIPA and to Qantas long haul pilots.
For: 16
Against: 18
Abstain: 0
BE IT RESOLVED that the Committee of Managementdirects the President not to have any discussion with the Company regarding the EBA until the outcome of the Office Bearers Election result is known at the end of October.
For: 10
Against: 17
Abstain: 2
BE IT RESOLVED that the President formulate with Committee of Management approval, a series of questions to be put to the membership and presented by an independent market research company.
For: 29
Against: 0
Abstain: 0
BE IT RESOLVED that the Committee of Management hereby authorises the establishment of a log of claims to substantiate the filing of a notice of a bargaining period in relation to the current LH EBA negotiations.
For: 12
Against: 20
Abstain: 0
BE IT RESOLVED that the President is directed to propose to Qantas senior management Qantas’ agreeing, inter alia, pay rises nominally effective 31 December 2006/7, and instituting correctly indexed meal allowances effective the annual review date whilst AIPA determines how best to progress a new collective agreement acceptable to AIPA and to Qantas long haul pilots.
For: 16
Against: 18
Abstain: 0
BE IT RESOLVED that the Committee of Managementdirects the President not to have any discussion with the Company regarding the EBA until the outcome of the Office Bearers Election result is known at the end of October.
For: 10
Against: 17
Abstain: 2
BE IT RESOLVED that the President formulate with Committee of Management approval, a series of questions to be put to the membership and presented by an independent market research company.
For: 29
Against: 0
Abstain: 0
BE IT RESOLVED that the Committee of Management hereby authorises the establishment of a log of claims to substantiate the filing of a notice of a bargaining period in relation to the current LH EBA negotiations.
For: 12
Against: 20
Abstain: 0
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Well this is the obvious step.
Do the com think that Qantas are just going to walk in and up the offer without us at least pretending to be some sort of a threat? It would be nice to know where the 20 against came from. I thought we removed the airline component from the com a few years back.
BE IT RESOLVED that the Committee of Management hereby authorises the establishment of a log of claims to substantiate the filing of a notice of a bargaining period in relation to the current LH EBA negotiations.
For: 12
Against: 20
Abstain: 0
For: 12
Against: 20
Abstain: 0
Do the com think that Qantas are just going to walk in and up the offer without us at least pretending to be some sort of a threat? It would be nice to know where the 20 against came from. I thought we removed the airline component from the com a few years back.
Could someone explain what "the filing of a notice of a bargaining period" means? I would have thought that given EBA7 expired nearly 2 years ago and we have been negotiating EBA8 since then that we must already be in a "bargining period". As such I thought we would already be covered by the PIA rules, not that I believe it is at all necessary at this stage.
Capt Kremin,
It seems maybe you should have started thinking strategically 2 years ago instead of fart arsing around. We now have to rescue what is a deplorable position. Maybe you should ask your current President the truth about his KB meeting. Truth is hard to come by of late....
It seems maybe you should have started thinking strategically 2 years ago instead of fart arsing around. We now have to rescue what is a deplorable position. Maybe you should ask your current President the truth about his KB meeting. Truth is hard to come by of late....
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Is there any way via SGM we can vote "el presidentay" off the island?
Given his procrastination and best diversionary tactics displayed at last SGM, surely a well worded motion directing the com to take some sort of action - be it directly or via a little lateral thinking..... can be put together.
Given his procrastination and best diversionary tactics displayed at last SGM, surely a well worded motion directing the com to take some sort of action - be it directly or via a little lateral thinking..... can be put together.
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Guys, each union/association has its own way of dealing with adverse situations, as a participant in the LAMEs struggle I pass on what seemed to work for us.
By the stuff you posted GB it seems as if your present President is trying to instigate a bargaining period for PIA but is being prevented from doing so by your committee of management or a majority of it, is that a reasonable call ?
There is often nothing to fear, except fear itself
Believe in yourselves you can be strong
By the stuff you posted GB it seems as if your present President is trying to instigate a bargaining period for PIA but is being prevented from doing so by your committee of management or a majority of it, is that a reasonable call ?
There is often nothing to fear, except fear itself
Believe in yourselves you can be strong
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Thank you for the PM and background to the politics within AIPA but I need this answered if anyone can. Who TF stopped the initiation of a bargaining period was it Woods/Duggan or the alternative Jackson/Susz team?
I don't care who wants to be President as long as it isn't the peanut who voted down this resolution to formally notify Qantas that we are serious about resolving our EBA and the current offer just doesn't make the grade.
I don't care who wants to be President as long as it isn't the peanut who voted down this resolution to formally notify Qantas that we are serious about resolving our EBA and the current offer just doesn't make the grade.
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Hard to say Fixit.
Just before Woodsy became "el presidentay" he wrote to all of us saying EBA 7 wasn't good enough but the troops voted for it anyway. This time round he said EBA 8 was OK and the troops voted in down.
Hard to tell if he has lost his balls or his opponents have done a good job castrating him.
Mind you he's crafty and while it looks like he prefers applying the pressure using non industrial tactics, he has a record of taking Qantas head on when it matters.
If it comes to war, he's the only AIPA General I'd ever line up behind but let's hope it doesn't come to that.
Rgds
Ginger
Just before Woodsy became "el presidentay" he wrote to all of us saying EBA 7 wasn't good enough but the troops voted for it anyway. This time round he said EBA 8 was OK and the troops voted in down.
Hard to tell if he has lost his balls or his opponents have done a good job castrating him.
Mind you he's crafty and while it looks like he prefers applying the pressure using non industrial tactics, he has a record of taking Qantas head on when it matters.
If it comes to war, he's the only AIPA General I'd ever line up behind but let's hope it doesn't come to that.
Rgds
Ginger
Last edited by Gingerbread; 30th Sep 2008 at 13:27.
I reckon the big boys on the A380 who missed out on their 6% for the good of the majority are the ones now stirring all the $hit.
Wake up everyone and see what's happening...they don't want to return to the bargaining table based on EBA8 style out of pure greed!!
Wake up everyone and see what's happening...they don't want to return to the bargaining table based on EBA8 style out of pure greed!!