Merged: Tiger Tales
OK, thanks guys. Found it. Pity the report didn't say what the "data from the FGMS’s (sic) navigational database that was displayed on the MCDU had a lowest descent altitude of 2,000 ft" actually was. Was it a waypoint AT/ABOVE and if so, which waypoint?
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I have previously flown for this operator and the database always showed 2000 and not 2500.
If that is in fact the case, then Tiger have real issues with internal reporting processes and safety management.
Maybe it's not an issue 99% of the time because
SOP dictates that the MCDU be properly checked.
EDIT: What ozbiggles said above..... that's what happens when you go to make a cup of coffee half way through a post... someone else beats you to your point!
The Federal Court has listed Friday 22 July for a directions hearing on the grounding of Tiger by CASA. I would not be surprised to see the grounding continue into August if the latest rumour is true. This being; that CASA are reviewing the original AOC issue and benchmarking that against the current review.
The Tiger management are not winning any friends in the media by refusing to hold a press conference. This is interpreted by the media as though they (Tiger) have something to hide.
The Tiger management are not winning any friends in the media by refusing to hold a press conference. This is interpreted by the media as though they (Tiger) have something to hide.
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The ATSB is also investigating the June 30 incident, in which another Tiger A320, believed to have flown by the same Captain.
So two FO's (or maybe the same fo) also allowed both incidents to ocurr & were saying what?
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The incorrect value on the database is not an issue because ATC clear you only to 2500 for an ILS or perhaps lower for a visual approach etc otherwise for sure the integrity of the database would have been reported. The point I was trying to highlight is the complacency with regard to the database and also the lack of discipline demonstrated during approach setup. ATSB says they were cleared to 2500 to commence the approach but the guys descended below that....if 2500 was set in the FCU and DES mode engaged then there would be no problem. Incorrect database was not the cause rather pilot error and if indeed it was the same captain involved in the AVV incident then Id be focusing investigation attention towards recruitment and training
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Elrehab , if your paying 100 return Mel -BNE , your flying in a plane that is operated by an airline that is going broke. Were are they cutting costs ie maintenance , pilot traing , safety or just catering . As you sit on your $49 seat you will have time to think about it. As you say everything has increased in cost and that includes the cost it takes to keep you safe.
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Toruk Macto
of course you make a good point. i guess i live in a world where i want to expect a cheap yet safe airline. but in all honestly, is Tiger going to recover after this month.?????? they say they are, and im hoping they will. but then im motivated in trying to believe they'll bounce back because i was expecting to work with them as cabin crew, with my training now on hold.
the majority of people are saying they are gone, but might they be wrong??
of course you make a good point. i guess i live in a world where i want to expect a cheap yet safe airline. but in all honestly, is Tiger going to recover after this month.?????? they say they are, and im hoping they will. but then im motivated in trying to believe they'll bounce back because i was expecting to work with them as cabin crew, with my training now on hold.
the majority of people are saying they are gone, but might they be wrong??
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Reinforcing Defeat
George Bush,
Your statement:
is what is commonly known as reinforcing defeat! Having two attempts at demonstrating an unacceptable safety culture, whether it merely be yours or whoever you actually work for (if indeed you are a pilot), is testimony that you just don't get it! 
Please take up an occupation appropriate to your skills, knowledge and attitude/behaviour.
Your statement:
The incorrect value on the database is not an issue because...
Please take up an occupation appropriate to your skills, knowledge and attitude/behaviour.
short flights long nights
elehrab..when you go to the airport in a taxi that cost about $40000, and the fare in the taxi costs more than a seat on an aircraft that costs around 40 million dollars....please take a seat have a think...it cannot go on...please think about it.....
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Tony Davis lateline last night. A little more humble than this time last week. He was pushed hard for some answers, for me, TD was very defensive and sparing with his words.
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oh gawd like how many times did he say "committed to the long term future of this airline" and "a safe, viable and long-term operation".
Anyway what else could he say? I screwed up big time and was demoted? or HA HA I made $30 mil and am accountable to no one? :P
When JY Pillay become Chairman of SIA in 1972 a post he held till 1996, he sacked the entire British and Australian senior management team who were responsible for blowing $1 million on fireworks over central London to celebrate the launch of Malaysia-Singapore Airlines to London. Remember back then QF and BOAC held stakes in MSA and subsequently SIA in the initial years, and the CEO position of SIA was alternated between a QF guy and a BOAC guy.
The rest is history of course.
Now why is JY Pillay, who was appointed Chairman of Tiger yesterday, tolerating Tony Davis?
As Chairman of SIA, he was known to go down to the hangars and get the engineers to get the manuals out to explain to him what exactly the problems were. Nobody could bull**** him.
ASIANOW - Asiaweek
Hopefully he'll be as hands on with Tiger.
Anyway what else could he say? I screwed up big time and was demoted? or HA HA I made $30 mil and am accountable to no one? :P
When JY Pillay become Chairman of SIA in 1972 a post he held till 1996, he sacked the entire British and Australian senior management team who were responsible for blowing $1 million on fireworks over central London to celebrate the launch of Malaysia-Singapore Airlines to London. Remember back then QF and BOAC held stakes in MSA and subsequently SIA in the initial years, and the CEO position of SIA was alternated between a QF guy and a BOAC guy.
The rest is history of course.
Now why is JY Pillay, who was appointed Chairman of Tiger yesterday, tolerating Tony Davis?
As Chairman of SIA, he was known to go down to the hangars and get the engineers to get the manuals out to explain to him what exactly the problems were. Nobody could bull**** him.
ASIANOW - Asiaweek
Hopefully he'll be as hands on with Tiger.
or the other minor detail around the 5:00 mark where TD says that "we decided to suspend services until the end of July" and that this is "an investment in the long term future of the business"??? 
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elrehad
dont listen to the bulls
t in the media or the 2% truth on this RUMOR site..
Its amazing how other airlines have there turn in the media.... and l stick up for them (to the general public who know very little about aviation) - Yet they forget all that very quickly and throw wild assumtions about others.. Think about the workforce stress levels at the moment. And always remember there is no airline or industry that is secure for life.
LCC comments about cutting cost somewhere Training ect. The level of experience in tiger if you have any idea is very high..Tiger employees lots of ex 89ers who have travelled the world waiting to get back into Aus. Why and how if they all go broke are South West and air Asia x making millions (just to choose 2 out of many) and legacy carriers are struggling. The way of the world.If you have a job lined up just be positive. Thats all you have.....
dont listen to the bulls
t in the media or the 2% truth on this RUMOR site..Its amazing how other airlines have there turn in the media.... and l stick up for them (to the general public who know very little about aviation) - Yet they forget all that very quickly and throw wild assumtions about others.. Think about the workforce stress levels at the moment. And always remember there is no airline or industry that is secure for life.
LCC comments about cutting cost somewhere Training ect. The level of experience in tiger if you have any idea is very high..Tiger employees lots of ex 89ers who have travelled the world waiting to get back into Aus. Why and how if they all go broke are South West and air Asia x making millions (just to choose 2 out of many) and legacy carriers are struggling. The way of the world.If you have a job lined up just be positive. Thats all you have.....
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Oakape said,
"The downside is that the second pilot doesn't do a brief & the check captain/examiner doesn't get to then observe his/her briefing & critique any shortcomings. It also doesn't allow for repetitious reinforcement.
It has been my experience that most check captains/examiners don't pay that much attention to the briefings anyway, instead concentrating on the actual exercise. Perhaps this is a shortcoming that needs to be addressed."
it may come as somewhat of a surprise to many that the "Checkie" is actually a hell of alot busier than you think back there. Configuring the Sim for the LOFT/ Proficiency Exercises is quite tedious. I won't go into the semantics and pedantics here but setting up the sim is very involved and to be brutally honest, the "checkie" is probably not listening intently to the SID/SDP briefing in the first place because he/she has enough to do. In my operation, the Cyclic Lesson Plan is quite detailed and Airways Clearances and sequences are provided to crews in the SIM briefing material supplied as part of their preparation, all to help with the time management. Sitting at the bridge asking for Airways Clearances and the like eats into valuable alloted sim time.
I have even seen guys brief the SIDS and OEI procedure in the briefing room prior to even getting in the box, all to save time.
From a "Checkie's" perspective, the most critical issue we face is the time management. Actually trying to cover all the matrix items required in the time given is very challenging. And this does not account for repeats if/when required. By this very nature then, brifings can be given thoroughly initially(even though the checkie is very busy and only listening with one ear) and any subsequent briefing of the exercise can be "considered already briefed" or "consider that done".
It is not a perfect world people, and IF you are not in the back seat, it is VERY easy to speculate on "what ifs."
My 2 cents worth.
"The downside is that the second pilot doesn't do a brief & the check captain/examiner doesn't get to then observe his/her briefing & critique any shortcomings. It also doesn't allow for repetitious reinforcement.
It has been my experience that most check captains/examiners don't pay that much attention to the briefings anyway, instead concentrating on the actual exercise. Perhaps this is a shortcoming that needs to be addressed."
it may come as somewhat of a surprise to many that the "Checkie" is actually a hell of alot busier than you think back there. Configuring the Sim for the LOFT/ Proficiency Exercises is quite tedious. I won't go into the semantics and pedantics here but setting up the sim is very involved and to be brutally honest, the "checkie" is probably not listening intently to the SID/SDP briefing in the first place because he/she has enough to do. In my operation, the Cyclic Lesson Plan is quite detailed and Airways Clearances and sequences are provided to crews in the SIM briefing material supplied as part of their preparation, all to help with the time management. Sitting at the bridge asking for Airways Clearances and the like eats into valuable alloted sim time.
I have even seen guys brief the SIDS and OEI procedure in the briefing room prior to even getting in the box, all to save time.
From a "Checkie's" perspective, the most critical issue we face is the time management. Actually trying to cover all the matrix items required in the time given is very challenging. And this does not account for repeats if/when required. By this very nature then, brifings can be given thoroughly initially(even though the checkie is very busy and only listening with one ear) and any subsequent briefing of the exercise can be "considered already briefed" or "consider that done".
It is not a perfect world people, and IF you are not in the back seat, it is VERY easy to speculate on "what ifs."
My 2 cents worth.
Last edited by Normasars; 8th Jul 2011 at 02:24.
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The bottom line
After watching TD on lateline last night, I believe this piece from Ben S opens more cans of worms. Coupling this with today's grounding of some J* A320s "after staff discovered that they had missed inspections." says to me there appears to be a race internally to cover for paperwork deficiencies for maintenance at J*, (to their credit at J* staff saw the problem and acted) whilst Tiger never seemed to have a good enough internal backup system leading to the situation they face today.
Tiger Airways may become safe, but faces deady fare wars | Plane Talking
Says pretty much what I was left thinking after the interview.
It appears that Singapore inc and Q group have been is a race for "tit for tat" business practices leading to the situation we have today. In a sense, the grounding of Tiger has slowed the race to the bottom regarding costs.
I doubt Tiger will be able to rely on it's old model for dirt cheap pricing, if it indeed gets off the ground again. Airfares will rise whether Tiger Australia flies or not.
Tiger Airways may become safe, but faces deady fare wars | Plane Talking
An impolite version of this view was that Tiger Australia was here to repay the courtesy of Qantas setting up Jetstar Asia in Singapore.
A different set of questions now need to be asked, as to how Tiger can be both a low fare leader and a business that doesn’t go broke, given the stance taken on ABC TV’s Lateline program last night, by its ‘new’ Australian CEO, Tony Davis, who until about last Sunday, was running Tiger Airways Holdings and was thus ultimately responsible for both Tiger’s Singapore based operations and those of Tiger Australia.
Those questions weren’t asked.
A different set of questions now need to be asked, as to how Tiger can be both a low fare leader and a business that doesn’t go broke, given the stance taken on ABC TV’s Lateline program last night, by its ‘new’ Australian CEO, Tony Davis, who until about last Sunday, was running Tiger Airways Holdings and was thus ultimately responsible for both Tiger’s Singapore based operations and those of Tiger Australia.
Those questions weren’t asked.
It appears that Singapore inc and Q group have been is a race for "tit for tat" business practices leading to the situation we have today. In a sense, the grounding of Tiger has slowed the race to the bottom regarding costs.
I doubt Tiger will be able to rely on it's old model for dirt cheap pricing, if it indeed gets off the ground again. Airfares will rise whether Tiger Australia flies or not.
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If you are struggling with the job as a sim instructor, Normasars, as I think you might be considering your post, I would suggest you step down!
Running the operation from the "back seat" is pretty simple really and if you need to impress us with the stress you are under, and tell us how hard it is, then I suggest you are out of your depth!
An experienced airline pilot / sim instructor should have no trouble at all running a sim session, completing all exercises in the allotted time and complying with company SOP's.
Running the operation from the "back seat" is pretty simple really and if you need to impress us with the stress you are under, and tell us how hard it is, then I suggest you are out of your depth!
An experienced airline pilot / sim instructor should have no trouble at all running a sim session, completing all exercises in the allotted time and complying with company SOP's.