QF to shed 2000 jobs
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WhoFlungDung et al.....
Empires have been lost in the past because the generals kept fighting the way they did in the last war, rather than adapting to the best way to fight the next one. I wouldn't want your way of thinking to be in the mind of any general I was following into battle.
The world started changing 30-ish years ago with Freddie Laker on one side of the Atlantic, Southwest on the other and the Airline Deregulation Act presented to Congress in Washington in the middle. Price driven markets, low fares, secondary airports, removal of barriers to entry, low costs, outsourcing etc etc started to become the watchwords of the industry. many player just "never got it" to use your anti-Jetstar words Mr WhoFlungDung.
Braniff, TWA, Eastern, Northeast, Reno Air, People Express, Western, Republic, PanAm.....didn't get it somehow or another. Some didn't manage the full service model, some didn't manage the low cost model. Doesn't matter whether their management were cruel, evil or wonderful...they're gone. And probably one of United, Delta, USAir or America West will yet go down the tubes.
If there was even one chance in 20 that someone other than Qantas would start a Jetstar style operation here then the Qantas Board had no choice but to be pro-active and do it themselves, to get their share of the expanding low fare market and to fend off other trying to do the same thing.
If the likes of the Jet Blue founder had started a Jetstar operation here, independent of Qantas and as a competitor, then Qantas would by now have folded up its domestic operation except for maybe MEL-SYD-BNE and if SIA ever got onto the Pacific, it would have folded a large chunk of their international operation as well.
Your future rests on the fact that the Group has managed that most difficult of balancing acts in the two brand strategy. It matters not that in being the repository of QF's loss making routes and defender of mainline yields, Jetstar is subsidizing mainline. That's just a normal part of business. JQ's reward is very rapid growth, quick promotions and of course the 787.
To even contemplate the "Do nothing" option for mainline would be to invite in the receivers. There was one and one only viable battle plan and it has worked.
Empires have been lost in the past because the generals kept fighting the way they did in the last war, rather than adapting to the best way to fight the next one. I wouldn't want your way of thinking to be in the mind of any general I was following into battle.
The world started changing 30-ish years ago with Freddie Laker on one side of the Atlantic, Southwest on the other and the Airline Deregulation Act presented to Congress in Washington in the middle. Price driven markets, low fares, secondary airports, removal of barriers to entry, low costs, outsourcing etc etc started to become the watchwords of the industry. many player just "never got it" to use your anti-Jetstar words Mr WhoFlungDung.
Braniff, TWA, Eastern, Northeast, Reno Air, People Express, Western, Republic, PanAm.....didn't get it somehow or another. Some didn't manage the full service model, some didn't manage the low cost model. Doesn't matter whether their management were cruel, evil or wonderful...they're gone. And probably one of United, Delta, USAir or America West will yet go down the tubes.
If there was even one chance in 20 that someone other than Qantas would start a Jetstar style operation here then the Qantas Board had no choice but to be pro-active and do it themselves, to get their share of the expanding low fare market and to fend off other trying to do the same thing.
If the likes of the Jet Blue founder had started a Jetstar operation here, independent of Qantas and as a competitor, then Qantas would by now have folded up its domestic operation except for maybe MEL-SYD-BNE and if SIA ever got onto the Pacific, it would have folded a large chunk of their international operation as well.
Your future rests on the fact that the Group has managed that most difficult of balancing acts in the two brand strategy. It matters not that in being the repository of QF's loss making routes and defender of mainline yields, Jetstar is subsidizing mainline. That's just a normal part of business. JQ's reward is very rapid growth, quick promotions and of course the 787.
To even contemplate the "Do nothing" option for mainline would be to invite in the receivers. There was one and one only viable battle plan and it has worked.
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Don't know......they didn't manage it properly did they? But you'll note that the DFOs go from strength to strength, Target and K mart seem to work still?
Plenty of airlines tried a 2 brand strategy and it didn't work. Shuttle by United,Ted by United, Delta's Song etc.
But your main point is, and it is a good one, that Qantas is fortunate that it managed to put in the right team to run JQ properly and that has saved mainline's bacon.
Plenty of airlines tried a 2 brand strategy and it didn't work. Shuttle by United,Ted by United, Delta's Song etc.
But your main point is, and it is a good one, that Qantas is fortunate that it managed to put in the right team to run JQ properly and that has saved mainline's bacon.
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genex, two brands is not what people are complaining about.
You mentioned Southwest, the contrasts in management style and practice could not be starker.
Do they f#ckover their staff AS the strategy?
I think you will find Southwest view their people as the soultion, not the problem.
How does Southwests management's compare to QF's (currently over 1000 executives)?
You mentioned Southwest, the contrasts in management style and practice could not be starker.
Do they f#ckover their staff AS the strategy?
I think you will find Southwest view their people as the soultion, not the problem.
How does Southwests management's compare to QF's (currently over 1000 executives)?
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Genex
You sound very much like a managemnt troll.
Qantas needs JetStar domestic...Jetstar domestic needs Qantas mainline.
Fine....
Lets just be clear that Jetstar domestic is being propped up by Mainline....not vice versa
Jet Star international with all its faces is not viable in its current forms
Qantas needs JetStar domestic...Jetstar domestic needs Qantas mainline.
Fine....
Lets just be clear that Jetstar domestic is being propped up by Mainline....not vice versa
Jet Star international with all its faces is not viable in its current forms
Genex,
You fall under the same definition of hypocrite as Dixon.
On the one hand the argument is rationalization of the airline industry - MEGA mergers of airlines into very few carriers.
But in another argument Qantas needs to have Jet* around (and every other crappy offshoot they have through Asia) to survive.
Jet* domestic will survive and thrive. (because it is protected by QF, which is in turn protected by Jet*) It will grow to include the shorter international routes to SE Asia but that is all. (like QF Mainline SH operates)
Jet* Intl will be dead and buried as soon as Dixon leaves.
M
You fall under the same definition of hypocrite as Dixon.
On the one hand the argument is rationalization of the airline industry - MEGA mergers of airlines into very few carriers.
But in another argument Qantas needs to have Jet* around (and every other crappy offshoot they have through Asia) to survive.
Jet* domestic will survive and thrive. (because it is protected by QF, which is in turn protected by Jet*) It will grow to include the shorter international routes to SE Asia but that is all. (like QF Mainline SH operates)
Jet* Intl will be dead and buried as soon as Dixon leaves.
M
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Further to breakfastburrito
Our Mexican breakfast friend has a point. May I humbly suggest you all take a look at the article at this link:
ISA | Top-heavy management drains companies
Hans Bauman is the founder of the Bauman control valve company that is known today as Fisher-Bauman, or just Fisher Controls. His qualifications are at the bottom of the article. (NB: And he doesn't have a MBA! Shock, horor.
) They are owned these days by Emerson Process Automation, one of the worlds leading and largest process control instrumentation manaufacturers.
Another good article appears in the March (?) 2008 edition of Australian Aviation. An interview with the new CEO of Air NZ. In the third para graph, from memory, he makes a prophetic statement to the affect that 'he looks after his staff, and his staff take care of the share holder's value'. The guy should be stuffed and mounted he is so rare!
ISA | Top-heavy management drains companies
Hans Bauman is the founder of the Bauman control valve company that is known today as Fisher-Bauman, or just Fisher Controls. His qualifications are at the bottom of the article. (NB: And he doesn't have a MBA! Shock, horor.
) They are owned these days by Emerson Process Automation, one of the worlds leading and largest process control instrumentation manaufacturers.Another good article appears in the March (?) 2008 edition of Australian Aviation. An interview with the new CEO of Air NZ. In the third para graph, from memory, he makes a prophetic statement to the affect that 'he looks after his staff, and his staff take care of the share holder's value'. The guy should be stuffed and mounted he is so rare!
Last edited by brucek; 26th Jul 2008 at 09:15. Reason: Additional text
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I think we would just see JQ international scalled back 70%. They shoud just keep:
-Christchurch
-Bali
-Bangkok/Phuket
Thats it, no japan, no nothing
AirAsiaX are going to beat JQ in the MEL-KL-London. They will have better and newer aircraft(IE-good IFE, nice cabin!, nice mood-lighting and you can order in your seat) Beats just sitting in a leather seat looking at a wall in the brightness of JQ's Lights!
-Christchurch
-Bali
-Bangkok/Phuket
Thats it, no japan, no nothing
AirAsiaX are going to beat JQ in the MEL-KL-London. They will have better and newer aircraft(IE-good IFE, nice cabin!, nice mood-lighting and you can order in your seat) Beats just sitting in a leather seat looking at a wall in the brightness of JQ's Lights!
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mmmbop,
I'm not a stooge of any sort for anyone. Sorry. Just a humble pilot and currently out of work but considering a few options.
Spoke to a few mates who work for JQ in the last couple of days. Funny....they don't specially feel F@#$ed over by anyone except attempts by some rabid AIPA stooges on Prune who dress up the argument "I want to fly the 787 and I'll hold my breath until I get to" as "There's something wrong with the Jetstar business model".
Are you projecting or do you know something no-one else does? If you are constantly feeling put upon or threatened by people you don't know without any factual evidence then you should talk to someone. Paranoia is dangerous, especially in the cockpit.
As for facts.....best estimates would probably put the Qantas cost of operating the 787 at about 20-ish% more than the same operation by JQ , year on year per any measure you like. Per hour, per available seat, per $ of revenue, per passenger, per ASK, per trip, per year, per sunset, whatever.
That would just about negate the fuel and engineering efficiencies of the 787 leaving QF no better off for having bought the Dreamliner.
Well, that's the Legacy Way I suppose. Add on the overheads and running costs so that every efficiency is matched by increased costs. Would love to see that case being argued to the QF Board.
The whole point about economies of scope is symbiosis....that the two parties together are better than as disparate entities, separately owned. apart. They rest on each other. Qantas has managed that better than most.
I have never met Mr. Dixon, never will. Neither like him nor dislike him. But he's done it.
I can imagine a JQ sized airline wreaking havoc in Australia without necessarily having Qantas Group as a parent. Any number of people could start that. Tiger for example with the vast resources of SIA behind it....could be 50 a/c by now if JQ weren't there. But I can't imagine Qantas mainline surviving if it had no defence mechanism against falling yields except a small bunch of AIPA members wishing it were so.
If it doesn't suit you then either sue the Board or leave. But stop complaining about a subject you are monumentally ill-equipped to contemplate and make pronouncements on. Failure to look beyond prejudice, superstition and bias to see the facts is NOT the mark of a professional pilot.
I'm not a stooge of any sort for anyone. Sorry. Just a humble pilot and currently out of work but considering a few options.
Spoke to a few mates who work for JQ in the last couple of days. Funny....they don't specially feel F@#$ed over by anyone except attempts by some rabid AIPA stooges on Prune who dress up the argument "I want to fly the 787 and I'll hold my breath until I get to" as "There's something wrong with the Jetstar business model".
Are you projecting or do you know something no-one else does? If you are constantly feeling put upon or threatened by people you don't know without any factual evidence then you should talk to someone. Paranoia is dangerous, especially in the cockpit.
As for facts.....best estimates would probably put the Qantas cost of operating the 787 at about 20-ish% more than the same operation by JQ , year on year per any measure you like. Per hour, per available seat, per $ of revenue, per passenger, per ASK, per trip, per year, per sunset, whatever.
That would just about negate the fuel and engineering efficiencies of the 787 leaving QF no better off for having bought the Dreamliner.
Well, that's the Legacy Way I suppose. Add on the overheads and running costs so that every efficiency is matched by increased costs. Would love to see that case being argued to the QF Board.
The whole point about economies of scope is symbiosis....that the two parties together are better than as disparate entities, separately owned. apart. They rest on each other. Qantas has managed that better than most.
I have never met Mr. Dixon, never will. Neither like him nor dislike him. But he's done it.
I can imagine a JQ sized airline wreaking havoc in Australia without necessarily having Qantas Group as a parent. Any number of people could start that. Tiger for example with the vast resources of SIA behind it....could be 50 a/c by now if JQ weren't there. But I can't imagine Qantas mainline surviving if it had no defence mechanism against falling yields except a small bunch of AIPA members wishing it were so.
If it doesn't suit you then either sue the Board or leave. But stop complaining about a subject you are monumentally ill-equipped to contemplate and make pronouncements on. Failure to look beyond prejudice, superstition and bias to see the facts is NOT the mark of a professional pilot.
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genex, I call your bluff
Can you please enlighten us with ANY publicly verifiable independent financials for JQ to allow us to compare.
No, therefore your statement has no basis in fact, unless there is some special information you would like to share.
As for facts.....best estimates would probably put the Qantas cost of operating the 787 at about 20-ish% more than the same operation by JQ , year on year per any measure you like. Per hour, per available seat, per $ of revenue, per passenger, per ASK, per trip, per year, per sunset, whatever.
No, therefore your statement has no basis in fact, unless there is some special information you would like to share.
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Ah...I'm beaten. Yes indeed I made up the figures. Qantas will fly the 787 far more efficiently than Jetstar. Qantas is indeed the most efficient airline in the world. Jetstar is but an abscess on its behind and without JQ, Qantas would be even more profitable. In fact Qantas would become galactically profitable and life just peachy for all its pilots if it weren't for Jetstar, VB, Tiger, Geoff Dixon and another 100 executives, journalists, bogan and backpacker travellers and anyone else not paying full fare, the AFAP, politicians of all sorts, lesser pilots who don't preface their flight number callsign with "the", and indeed everyone who doesn't understand that "we've always done it this way". They should all go. Soon.
And yes...Jetstar's raison d'etre is but an evil strategy just to upset the true Owners of the Sky and their seniority and pensions and gold braid.
I apologize. In mitigation I can only plea that it wasn't all my fault and since my dad was a humble Lancaster pilot, not a Qantas Captain, I didn't know better. I even compounded that by never getting any sort of degree in aviation! I know, its sad.
If....on the other hand, outside of the world of daydreams, you really want to know the facts....I suggest that as per the agenda in a previous post of mine you do some of the legwork yourself and publish your results here. If you aren't willing to do that then keep quiet and stop trying to get other people to do your work for you.
And yes...Jetstar's raison d'etre is but an evil strategy just to upset the true Owners of the Sky and their seniority and pensions and gold braid.
I apologize. In mitigation I can only plea that it wasn't all my fault and since my dad was a humble Lancaster pilot, not a Qantas Captain, I didn't know better. I even compounded that by never getting any sort of degree in aviation! I know, its sad.
If....on the other hand, outside of the world of daydreams, you really want to know the facts....I suggest that as per the agenda in a previous post of mine you do some of the legwork yourself and publish your results here. If you aren't willing to do that then keep quiet and stop trying to get other people to do your work for you.
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Genex,
They (qf drivers) are living in hope of getting the 787......they will not..!!
I suppose you really cant blame them having to fly around in dated a/c whilst the LCC has the new shiny equipment..
I would like to see the comparison of JQ vs QF flying the 787 with JQ's cost base vs how much money they make flying it compared to QF flying the 787 with their "premium" customers and the huge cost base they work from.....I don't think there would be too much differernce..
Anyway...I guess the JQ lads will prosper from this at the expense of the gold braided rolls royce driving mates..
They (qf drivers) are living in hope of getting the 787......they will not..!!
I suppose you really cant blame them having to fly around in dated a/c whilst the LCC has the new shiny equipment..
I would like to see the comparison of JQ vs QF flying the 787 with JQ's cost base vs how much money they make flying it compared to QF flying the 787 with their "premium" customers and the huge cost base they work from.....I don't think there would be too much differernce..
Anyway...I guess the JQ lads will prosper from this at the expense of the gold braided rolls royce driving mates..
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Muff...the QF guys will be driving it and not too long after JQ ( a year or two) as only the first 15 787-8 go to JQ and remaining go direct to QF, then 2 years in (assuming timeline sticks) JQ then get the better suited 787-9 for their operation (15 also) and the initial 15 x 787-8 goes to mainlin for domestic ops I think??
Breakfast...I understand its accepted by most with access to these figures, that the cost to operate JQ flight of the same type as QF (ie 787 or 332) that it is approx 20-30% less depending on who you talk to. Sure the fuel is a much bigger percentage for JQ....which in itself shows you that their total costs are still much lower...or else percentage would be the same. This would work for any form of measuring cost's that you like as Genex stated above. Its fairly simple...pilots are 20-30%less paid, FA are at least 30% less paid and do 16 hour duties without bunks etc...(i.e MEL-DPS overnight returns), JQ take lowest contract price, have fewer head office staff for each area...etc etc.
In saying all that, cost of course doesnt alone determine profitability and one would reasonably expect on most business or higher yielding VFR routes that QF would be able to demand higher yield than JQ (i.e the great cityflyer domestic product and OZ-UK/USA traffic. But on routes that Ma & Pa Kettle want to visit the kids or the local B grade footy team wants a end of season trip (i.e. no big demand for First, business, prem econ and all the trimmings), well then JQ get more seats in and can take higher numbers of lower yielding pax. Where as QF Int a/c would not carry as many low payers....and hence lose a lot of money. Not because there is anything wrong with QF, the crew or the aircraft...just there is not a product/cost/yield match up...
So as Muff hinted at not lot in it, should be more about making the 2 brands benefit the GROUP rather than hurt each other. But I do think QF should by now have had a fleet of B777-200/300ER etc doing mainline domestic flying (SYD-MEL/PER etc and Longhaul to replace early 744's). At 2-3,000kg of fuel less per hour, newer product, better IFE....think how the longhaul and cityflyer would be going now...
Breakfast...I understand its accepted by most with access to these figures, that the cost to operate JQ flight of the same type as QF (ie 787 or 332) that it is approx 20-30% less depending on who you talk to. Sure the fuel is a much bigger percentage for JQ....which in itself shows you that their total costs are still much lower...or else percentage would be the same. This would work for any form of measuring cost's that you like as Genex stated above. Its fairly simple...pilots are 20-30%less paid, FA are at least 30% less paid and do 16 hour duties without bunks etc...(i.e MEL-DPS overnight returns), JQ take lowest contract price, have fewer head office staff for each area...etc etc.
In saying all that, cost of course doesnt alone determine profitability and one would reasonably expect on most business or higher yielding VFR routes that QF would be able to demand higher yield than JQ (i.e the great cityflyer domestic product and OZ-UK/USA traffic. But on routes that Ma & Pa Kettle want to visit the kids or the local B grade footy team wants a end of season trip (i.e. no big demand for First, business, prem econ and all the trimmings), well then JQ get more seats in and can take higher numbers of lower yielding pax. Where as QF Int a/c would not carry as many low payers....and hence lose a lot of money. Not because there is anything wrong with QF, the crew or the aircraft...just there is not a product/cost/yield match up...
So as Muff hinted at not lot in it, should be more about making the 2 brands benefit the GROUP rather than hurt each other. But I do think QF should by now have had a fleet of B777-200/300ER etc doing mainline domestic flying (SYD-MEL/PER etc and Longhaul to replace early 744's). At 2-3,000kg of fuel less per hour, newer product, better IFE....think how the longhaul and cityflyer would be going now...
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Brucek, you cant always take single quotes on their own....keep in mind the same Air NZ CEO only two years ago told all is his airports staff (about 2000 of them) to sign a new EBA or they would be outsourced...and in fact even appointed a company (Swissport) which was only overturned after the staff signed a new deal and some accepted VR.
Flyer...AirAsiaX will have new better aircraft....than the 787??????? Come on really! They also have no IFE and very ordinary crew. If u want to ride with 390 pax in an A330 be my guest!
Flyer...AirAsiaX will have new better aircraft....than the 787??????? Come on really! They also have no IFE and very ordinary crew. If u want to ride with 390 pax in an A330 be my guest!
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QF guys will be driving it and not too long after JQ ( a year or two) as only the first 15 787-8 go to JQ and remaining go direct to QF, then 2 years in (assuming timeline sticks) JQ then get the better suited 787-9 for their operation (15 also) and the initial 15 x 787-8 goes to mainlin for domestic ops I think??
Whilst I dont admit knowing exactly what the flying plan is for the larger Qantas Group. I do know that the flying plan is continually being reassesed & what was the case at 10th July 2008 is again under review.
So to trust a delivery schedule for the 787 & where they will go to, dated prior to 10th July 2008 may no longer be the case. Hey, we all know things change in aviation at an ever increasing & acclerating rate.
I did however have the opportunity to meet with JB some time ago, he reiterated the reason mainline pulled out of some of the international ops was QF mainline was unable to operate daily services due unavailability of aircraft at that time. Hence being unprofitable on those routes. With more airframes & newer, more fuel efficient aircraft, wouldn't the reverse be true?
MC
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absolutely...frequency for full service is often the key to making it viable and Im sure this will be the case for QF once the new aircraft are online. Not only frequency, but more fuel efficient will work wonders.
To the right markets, JQI will continue to work...its not going to make big money, but it keeps market share where its not viable for QF to go and this allows QF to go after the big dollar routes and fend of the likes of SQ & EK on UK traffic.
MC...you are likely to be right, Im sure now that all plans are "tentative" from this point on...It would make sense that the first 20 or so planes (787) go to mainline for Asia and main trunk domestic. If not at least QF will get back the A330's one for one from when JQ 787 #7 trhu #12 delivered...or so the plan was anyway. I wonder now that QF will pull off double daily CNS-NRT if that provides sufficient a/c to do the routes mentioned by JB??
To the right markets, JQI will continue to work...its not going to make big money, but it keeps market share where its not viable for QF to go and this allows QF to go after the big dollar routes and fend of the likes of SQ & EK on UK traffic.
MC...you are likely to be right, Im sure now that all plans are "tentative" from this point on...It would make sense that the first 20 or so planes (787) go to mainline for Asia and main trunk domestic. If not at least QF will get back the A330's one for one from when JQ 787 #7 trhu #12 delivered...or so the plan was anyway. I wonder now that QF will pull off double daily CNS-NRT if that provides sufficient a/c to do the routes mentioned by JB??
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My bet is that all the A330's will go to J* and the all the 787's will go to mainline. That was a recent rumour from the top of QF flt operations from a couple of weeks ago.
Not a beat up, just a strong rumour from someone a lot more in the know than I am.
Not a beat up, just a strong rumour from someone a lot more in the know than I am.
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That would probably also work, the total of the A330-200 fleet including JQ current 6 (if they take the 4 on offer late next year) probably gives them similar size fleet, with not quite the same range but close...
The concern was more on the 332 ability to reach Europe and parts of North America...which the 787 overcame.
The other downside to the 330 for low frequency ops like that of JQI is the crappy reliability.
The concern was more on the 332 ability to reach Europe and parts of North America...which the 787 overcame.
The other downside to the 330 for low frequency ops like that of JQI is the crappy reliability.