Merged: QANTASLINK Crewing Crisis!
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I saw the EAA fleet manager a few weeks back and he told me that the company was hurting from losing pilots.
The management at EAA know about the problem but are probably hindered from allowing progression by the fact that big Q managment don't want a Group Opportunity List.
AIPA are trying for you guys to have career progression but again the RAT management don't want it.
As aside I have seen R!X and Jet* advertising o/s. maybe Q/L will look abroad for experience. I hope not........
CH I would love to watch you TRY and fly that DHC8 sim. I have flown lots of things including your type of equipment and i can tell you handling the DHC8 with an engine out is a real handful. probably the hardest sim flying i have done.
You may want to re-read the AIP on circling.
The management at EAA know about the problem but are probably hindered from allowing progression by the fact that big Q managment don't want a Group Opportunity List.
AIPA are trying for you guys to have career progression but again the RAT management don't want it.
As aside I have seen R!X and Jet* advertising o/s. maybe Q/L will look abroad for experience. I hope not........
CH I would love to watch you TRY and fly that DHC8 sim. I have flown lots of things including your type of equipment and i can tell you handling the DHC8 with an engine out is a real handful. probably the hardest sim flying i have done.
You may want to re-read the AIP on circling.
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A few years ago, I took a pay cut and joined Qflink attracted by the roster. It was pretty decent, shortish days, not too many overnights, plenty of reserve.
The offshoot from that was pilot numbers were very stable. Operations very rarely had a problem finding crew. It was considered by many to be one of the best flying jobs in the country. The money wasn't great, but hey - we had a great life... and the company was doing very well indeed.
Forward a few years and the feeling around the place is very different. Employee morale has fallen sharply, (of course that won't show up in your accounting). While at the same time, correct me if I am wrong, the company is making sh!tloads of cash.
Things got particularly bad when some brainiac set up the $10K entry fee. That may have been the catalyst to get things heading south as the nasty fee actually discouraged the very type of pilot QFlink had traditionally attracted. By attracting the wrong type - i.e. cashed up kids, the writing was well and truly on the wall. (By wrong I simply mean pilots who are in the period of their lives where they are striving for that jet job, even if it means Jet*.)
To top it off, the regional GM seems to think that by "improving efficiency, together" things will get better. "Improving efficiency" generally means only one thing to a pilot - more work, much more work, for the same money. And the reward for all this improved efficiency?
More Q400s. Doing more work.
To quote a guy who left recently....."Get out, It's a sinking ship!"
He should know - he has spent a bit of time in boats.
cheers all.
The offshoot from that was pilot numbers were very stable. Operations very rarely had a problem finding crew. It was considered by many to be one of the best flying jobs in the country. The money wasn't great, but hey - we had a great life... and the company was doing very well indeed.
Forward a few years and the feeling around the place is very different. Employee morale has fallen sharply, (of course that won't show up in your accounting). While at the same time, correct me if I am wrong, the company is making sh!tloads of cash.
Things got particularly bad when some brainiac set up the $10K entry fee. That may have been the catalyst to get things heading south as the nasty fee actually discouraged the very type of pilot QFlink had traditionally attracted. By attracting the wrong type - i.e. cashed up kids, the writing was well and truly on the wall. (By wrong I simply mean pilots who are in the period of their lives where they are striving for that jet job, even if it means Jet*.)
To top it off, the regional GM seems to think that by "improving efficiency, together" things will get better. "Improving efficiency" generally means only one thing to a pilot - more work, much more work, for the same money. And the reward for all this improved efficiency?
More Q400s. Doing more work.
To quote a guy who left recently....."Get out, It's a sinking ship!"
He should know - he has spent a bit of time in boats.
cheers all.
Have you heard they are going to name one of the E jets "Qantaslinks Blue"!
Hey Jarse, News and other mates come on over it's all good. This roster has 14 days off/grey, a couple of reserves, a day course and the rest flying. The money is better(for me anyway) and the trips aren't too bad generally 2-3 nights away with good rest.
Hoping to see lots of you guys over here soon, its worth it.
Hoping to see lots of you guys over here soon, its worth it.
G'day Hoss
Great to hear that you are enjoying your change of cockpit (& airline). Sounds like the grass is truly greener.
For the guys who haven't done the sums, think about the following:-
Qantas has ordered 65 firm B787's + 20 options (which in reality are firm orders) plus 30 "expressions of interest". The additional 30 aircraft will be B787-10's (if Boeing get their act together before management lose their patience and order A350XWB's). Of the 85 "firm" aircraft, 15 will go to Jetstar and, for mainline, there will be 15 B787-8's requiring 83 Captains & 83 F/O's, plus 55 B787-9's requiring 385 Captains, 385 F/O's & approx 700 S/O's. That's over 1600 pilots before we consider the B787-10 (210 captains, 210 F/O's & approx 400 S/O's) (not including training captains/F/O's). That totals almost 2500 pilots, ie more than the current Qantas pilot establishment.
If you look ahead to 2015, in addition to the 115 B787's mentioned above, there will be 20 A380's, 9 B744's, 22 A330's, and 65-70 B737's - another 1900+ pilots. Qantas mainline is screaming for pilots and will take every one who meets the minimum standards (They won't admit it but they have lowered the Phsyometric Aptitude score that is acceptable). With 200 retirements in the same period, that means that 2100 pilots will have to be recuited in that period - ie 300 per annum through to 2015.
I haven't touched on the huge demand that Jetstar have for the large number of A320/1's plus B787's that have been ordered.
What I am trying to say is - Oz pilots are in the strongest industrial position that they have ever been in. We are over due for having a Qantas Group pilot career progression which allows individuals to choose the type of flying that suits their lifestyle. It's great that the Jetstar pilots rejected their EBA and consequentially they will achieve a higher remuneration in the long run.
Great to hear that you are enjoying your change of cockpit (& airline). Sounds like the grass is truly greener.
For the guys who haven't done the sums, think about the following:-
Qantas has ordered 65 firm B787's + 20 options (which in reality are firm orders) plus 30 "expressions of interest". The additional 30 aircraft will be B787-10's (if Boeing get their act together before management lose their patience and order A350XWB's). Of the 85 "firm" aircraft, 15 will go to Jetstar and, for mainline, there will be 15 B787-8's requiring 83 Captains & 83 F/O's, plus 55 B787-9's requiring 385 Captains, 385 F/O's & approx 700 S/O's. That's over 1600 pilots before we consider the B787-10 (210 captains, 210 F/O's & approx 400 S/O's) (not including training captains/F/O's). That totals almost 2500 pilots, ie more than the current Qantas pilot establishment.
If you look ahead to 2015, in addition to the 115 B787's mentioned above, there will be 20 A380's, 9 B744's, 22 A330's, and 65-70 B737's - another 1900+ pilots. Qantas mainline is screaming for pilots and will take every one who meets the minimum standards (They won't admit it but they have lowered the Phsyometric Aptitude score that is acceptable). With 200 retirements in the same period, that means that 2100 pilots will have to be recuited in that period - ie 300 per annum through to 2015.
I haven't touched on the huge demand that Jetstar have for the large number of A320/1's plus B787's that have been ordered.
What I am trying to say is - Oz pilots are in the strongest industrial position that they have ever been in. We are over due for having a Qantas Group pilot career progression which allows individuals to choose the type of flying that suits their lifestyle. It's great that the Jetstar pilots rejected their EBA and consequentially they will achieve a higher remuneration in the long run.
Last edited by Going Boeing; 8th Feb 2008 at 17:42.
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Van Gough,
there is a shortage.
There, I just told you!
I think you could get a job with the current management team!
If there was no shortage, do you think we would be discussing the matter?
Look back a few years and the opposite was true!
The problem is that there is a shortage, and the current pilots who are staying on are finding that the lifestyle as a QL pilot is being quickly eroded.
The more that leave, the harder it will get as recruitment cannot keep up.
It is a cylcle that will continue to worsen for some time before it gets better.
This is being recognised and that is why many are so upset!
Many more troops to leave. The Emb sounds better with every day that passes.
there is a shortage.
There, I just told you!
I think you could get a job with the current management team!If there was no shortage, do you think we would be discussing the matter?
Look back a few years and the opposite was true!
The problem is that there is a shortage, and the current pilots who are staying on are finding that the lifestyle as a QL pilot is being quickly eroded.
The more that leave, the harder it will get as recruitment cannot keep up.
It is a cylcle that will continue to worsen for some time before it gets better.
This is being recognised and that is why many are so upset!
Many more troops to leave. The Emb sounds better with every day that passes.
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The problem is that there is a shortage, and the current pilots who are staying on are finding that the lifestyle as a QL pilot is being quickly eroded.
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Your references to circling would be correct if they represented the lowest value for circling with adequate visual reference to the airport and the aircraft was 300' above the highest obstacle in the circling radius. Any operation of the aircraft below the published minima in anything other than a visual maneuver is careless and reckless operation. Your assertion that a circling approach is an instrument procedure is in defiance of airmanship as well as legislation.
Yeah, well, we know where these guys are getting their ideas!
Yeah, well, we know where these guys are getting their ideas!
Jepp Terminal AU22/23 para 3.13 is quite explicit in it's description of visual circling, in particular my statement refers to Note 2, descent below MDA. We will occasionally need to use that by day, whenever we can't do an RNAV straight in, (as I had to do in Port recently when we got a RAIM warning part way through an RNAV approach and had to bug out and do an NDB + circle to 03). No problem, no hairy chest, FL510 and 40 deg sweepback needed.
Circling in 2.4k vis is not VMC. Therefore it must be IMC, is it not?. There is no "in between".
However one can still conduct visual circling in 2.4k vis (non VMC). I never wrote that circling is an instrument procedure. That's your ill-informed interpretation, Chris. We ALWAYS conform to the Jepp requirements.
Nevertheless, I'm quite satisfied with my standards of airmanship and level of compliance with the regs Chris. Thanks for passing judgement
Freddy Fudpucker: Don't bother with him. You can't put brains in a statue. that's why he's stuck in the states
Hoss: You're a funny bastard!
Sounds like the SY crew room will be a Kendell, Hazo and Eastern reunion. At least somebody appreciates us. I bet I know who's going to be rostered to fly "Qantaslink Blue" 
I just hope the logo is a picture of our (QL's) Dancing With The Stars entrant. A lovely young lady who would do the aircraft proud 
See you, Chris!
To the rest of you, I apologise for the hijack.
Last edited by Hugh Jarse; 8th Feb 2008 at 07:37.
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Gidday Going Boeing,
The problem we have is that there is a log jam in regard to a career progression agreement. AIPA can come up with an arrangement that covers the Regionals (the example recently emailed out by AIPA about Air NZ was a bit of an embarrassment because it excluded turboprop operations, and really made me laugh) but in the end any agreement has to be ratified by Qantas. Anecdotal evidence is that Dixon stated that a GOL would occur "over his dead body" and that "he would sell off the regionals" if the point were pushed.
So how do QF pilots (as a collective) get around this situation?
Genuine question.
The problem we have is that there is a log jam in regard to a career progression agreement. AIPA can come up with an arrangement that covers the Regionals (the example recently emailed out by AIPA about Air NZ was a bit of an embarrassment because it excluded turboprop operations, and really made me laugh) but in the end any agreement has to be ratified by Qantas. Anecdotal evidence is that Dixon stated that a GOL would occur "over his dead body" and that "he would sell off the regionals" if the point were pushed.
So how do QF pilots (as a collective) get around this situation?
Genuine question.
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Wynsocks' post about the strategic error made by QL management in introducing a $10K price tag on the job hits the nail on the head.
'..as per industry standard we will now require new recriuts to subsidise the cost of the DHC8 rating..blah blah blah' came the shamefull announcement from Easterns/Sunstate flight ops management moles.
Short termism at it's finest and as Wynsock points out it attracts short term employees, who can blame them? $40K to live on in Sydney, paying back the bank the $10K.
Some pilots would be happy to trade conditions and lifestyle but not if there's an admission charge to sit in the front end.
Ya reap what ya sow.
Mat Finish
never a shiny moment..
'..as per industry standard we will now require new recriuts to subsidise the cost of the DHC8 rating..blah blah blah' came the shamefull announcement from Easterns/Sunstate flight ops management moles.
Short termism at it's finest and as Wynsock points out it attracts short term employees, who can blame them? $40K to live on in Sydney, paying back the bank the $10K.
Some pilots would be happy to trade conditions and lifestyle but not if there's an admission charge to sit in the front end.
Ya reap what ya sow.
Mat Finish
never a shiny moment..
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Mat,
I came out publicly against pay for training in April of the year it was introduced. It seems like such a long time ago, but I remember like it was yesterday..... I copped a pizzling from management, and as a result and had to pull my head in. Can't say any more, sorry, apart from the whole landscape at Eastern changed with that decision.
You're right though Mat Finish......
I came out publicly against pay for training in April of the year it was introduced. It seems like such a long time ago, but I remember like it was yesterday..... I copped a pizzling from management, and as a result and had to pull my head in. Can't say any more, sorry, apart from the whole landscape at Eastern changed with that decision.
You're right though Mat Finish......
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Hugh,
Your anti-American negativity is quite an debilitating to you, your arguments make you sound like somebody who was raised in a welfare home who never had to work, or juxtaposed had everything given to him and never had to work.
Be careful staring at instruments at 300 feet on your "instrument" flight below minima Mate, you never know what you might hit!
Anyone who has difficulty hanging on to a Dash 8 in the simulator shouldn't be down there unless it's VFR anyway!
I'm very happy to go back to Australia at least once a year, run our dot com, real estate holdings company and fly 14 days a month and bank a fortune, while we ski all winter and race motocross all Summer. As you can see, it's not a question of being stuck anywhere, but finding myself in fortunate circumstances and I happen to be married to a Yank.
I'll let this go now, but every time we have tried to fly on you guys out of Port it has totally ended in a shambles...every single time. This year when I took my three boys to New Zealand to ski, I thought about doing the Dash 8 up to Port to the farm, but finally decided on a rental car out of Mascot.
It's a little like the disclaimer on the mutual fund commercials, "Past performance does not guarantee future returns". People still buy mutual funds when the past performance has been good, because they anticipate a good return based on history.
I've followed Eastern through the 404s, the Bandit, the Jetstream 31s and the Dash 8. I've spoken at high schools in Port Macquarie and invariably I have to field an "Eastern" story. One that is not too different from any I have told here.
East West were never like that! We had courteous transmissions to students, relay of transmissions to Coffs when they were still an FSU and public displays of uniform and language that would be suitable in any home or state function.
Hugh, I'm sure you do a great job. You're obviously passionate about your job
it's just that I've never heard or seen any of the professionalism you claim here.
I'm more convinced than ever that Avis is a better bet.
Your anti-American negativity is quite an debilitating to you, your arguments make you sound like somebody who was raised in a welfare home who never had to work, or juxtaposed had everything given to him and never had to work.
Be careful staring at instruments at 300 feet on your "instrument" flight below minima Mate, you never know what you might hit!
Anyone who has difficulty hanging on to a Dash 8 in the simulator shouldn't be down there unless it's VFR anyway!
I'm very happy to go back to Australia at least once a year, run our dot com, real estate holdings company and fly 14 days a month and bank a fortune, while we ski all winter and race motocross all Summer. As you can see, it's not a question of being stuck anywhere, but finding myself in fortunate circumstances and I happen to be married to a Yank.
I'll let this go now, but every time we have tried to fly on you guys out of Port it has totally ended in a shambles...every single time. This year when I took my three boys to New Zealand to ski, I thought about doing the Dash 8 up to Port to the farm, but finally decided on a rental car out of Mascot.
It's a little like the disclaimer on the mutual fund commercials, "Past performance does not guarantee future returns". People still buy mutual funds when the past performance has been good, because they anticipate a good return based on history.
I've followed Eastern through the 404s, the Bandit, the Jetstream 31s and the Dash 8. I've spoken at high schools in Port Macquarie and invariably I have to field an "Eastern" story. One that is not too different from any I have told here.
East West were never like that! We had courteous transmissions to students, relay of transmissions to Coffs when they were still an FSU and public displays of uniform and language that would be suitable in any home or state function.
Hugh, I'm sure you do a great job. You're obviously passionate about your job
it's just that I've never heard or seen any of the professionalism you claim here.
I'm more convinced than ever that Avis is a better bet.
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Chris - I for one am more than pleased you choose Avis, maybe you could let them know how to run a car hire business - you seem to be expert on everything else. If you query Hugh and Normas capabilities, it just proves you know nothing - both of the highest caliber. A hero in your own lunchbox perhaps- doesn't impress me one bit
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Defenestrator,
To answer your question; no it's certified without auto-throttles. Because of the power to weight ratio, we don't really have the inertia to deal with like on the heavy jets, it really is quite an easy aircraft to fly. Actually, even easier than a turbo prop.
Missing Link,
It was not my goal to impress you and I am again, sadly reassured that nothing has changed on the Sydney to PMQ route with regards to your airline. I look forward to flying Virgin Blue into Port next time I am down. The runway has been lengthened for the Embraer and I'm sure it will be a relief to every one to have reliable service.
To answer your question; no it's certified without auto-throttles. Because of the power to weight ratio, we don't really have the inertia to deal with like on the heavy jets, it really is quite an easy aircraft to fly. Actually, even easier than a turbo prop.
Missing Link,
It was not my goal to impress you and I am again, sadly reassured that nothing has changed on the Sydney to PMQ route with regards to your airline. I look forward to flying Virgin Blue into Port next time I am down. The runway has been lengthened for the Embraer and I'm sure it will be a relief to every one to have reliable service.
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Don't you just love back seat drivers! LOL! haha
And furthermore some Yank with this "my equipment is bigger than yours" complex. You come across like a Qantaslink wannabe that never was, mate.
And furthermore some Yank with this "my equipment is bigger than yours" complex. You come across like a Qantaslink wannabe that never was, mate.
