Merged: QANTASLINK Crewing Crisis!
Join Date: Sep 2006
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It matters not who/whom is at fault here with respect to the regionals going down the toilet, the 'flush' has been done. The pilots won't be able to control the situation directly but they can help prevent the 'toilet bowl' from becoming completly dry!!
Where here Mr Regional, even tho you have crapped on us from high above for years we are still willing to help, but this time on OUR terms!!
..................more to come am sure, it can only get worse before it gets better!
CW
Where here Mr Regional, even tho you have crapped on us from high above for years we are still willing to help, but this time on OUR terms!!
..................more to come am sure, it can only get worse before it gets better!
CW
Join Date: Jul 1999
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So tell me... why is air travel, in real term, cheaper today than it was 10 years ago ? why are REX etc making HUGE profits? and WHY do they sit by and let their company fall into a heap just to avoid a payrise for pilots ?
As has been said before: Many pilots WOULD stay for increased money. many WOULD stay for the same money, but INCREASED conditions. Many pilots WOULD stay for increased money AND conditions.
What HASN'T been said, is that IF the money were comparable/slightly better than a 737/a320 F/O wage, then many pilots COULDN'T move on, as they couldn't afford the slight paycut in the short term!!!!!
I know that I am mortgaged to the eyeballs, and cannot afford to take a paycut! Even a year on 10,000 less, would seriously hurt me. OK, OK I know I will be shouted down here saying that I should NOT have gotten myself in such a position, but LONG term ambitions based on current conditions( 2 years ago) now preclude me from losing any money for the next few years.
I was anti the last EBA, but got told by the AFAP, that it is the BEST that we will get offered, so take it!!! (sound familiar???????) - Thanks Lawrie! no real bargaining... no real balls!- thanks Lawrie!Management now KNOW that they can walk all over pilots because we keep buckling... THANKS LAWRIE!!!!
Whats the plan for the NEXT EBA ???
As has been said before: Many pilots WOULD stay for increased money. many WOULD stay for the same money, but INCREASED conditions. Many pilots WOULD stay for increased money AND conditions.
What HASN'T been said, is that IF the money were comparable/slightly better than a 737/a320 F/O wage, then many pilots COULDN'T move on, as they couldn't afford the slight paycut in the short term!!!!!
I know that I am mortgaged to the eyeballs, and cannot afford to take a paycut! Even a year on 10,000 less, would seriously hurt me. OK, OK I know I will be shouted down here saying that I should NOT have gotten myself in such a position, but LONG term ambitions based on current conditions( 2 years ago) now preclude me from losing any money for the next few years.
I was anti the last EBA, but got told by the AFAP, that it is the BEST that we will get offered, so take it!!! (sound familiar???????) - Thanks Lawrie! no real bargaining... no real balls!- thanks Lawrie!Management now KNOW that they can walk all over pilots because we keep buckling... THANKS LAWRIE!!!!
Whats the plan for the NEXT EBA ???
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Aviation is at the top of the cycle, and I am sure that some of our more learned colleagues on this site would have seen similar highs in their earlier career.
The issue here, is that senior management ie GGM level, did not respond earlier enough to the signs - which I am sure were passed up the chain, and respond in a strategic and tactical manner.
Young pilots would always leave a turboprop operator regardless of pay...generally most airline type pilots aspire towards flying jets and QF Link cannot offer that pathway.
The issue here, is that senior management ie GGM level, did not respond earlier enough to the signs - which I am sure were passed up the chain, and respond in a strategic and tactical manner.
Young pilots would always leave a turboprop operator regardless of pay...generally most airline type pilots aspire towards flying jets and QF Link cannot offer that pathway.
Join Date: Aug 2003
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rescue 1: "Young pilots would always leave a turboprop operator regardless of pay...generally most airline type pilots aspire towards flying jets and QF Link cannot offer that pathway."
I disagree here. If the big Q wanted to, they could solve most of their crewing problems, right up the chain, by providing a set career progression. 2yr Dash FO, 2yr Dash CPT, 2 yr widebody SO - and so on. They could even include a stint at J* before coming back to mainline as an FO.
If people could see that they will be on a jet, in mainline, within 5 years then it is worth doing 'the time' in a dash 8 to get there. However, it is probably a bit late now for such a system.
These days though, even that may not please some people. I have heard people whining because they got "stuck on that little Jungle Jet" - what a waste of their massive 1500 hours experience...
I disagree here. If the big Q wanted to, they could solve most of their crewing problems, right up the chain, by providing a set career progression. 2yr Dash FO, 2yr Dash CPT, 2 yr widebody SO - and so on. They could even include a stint at J* before coming back to mainline as an FO.
If people could see that they will be on a jet, in mainline, within 5 years then it is worth doing 'the time' in a dash 8 to get there. However, it is probably a bit late now for such a system.
These days though, even that may not please some people. I have heard people whining because they got "stuck on that little Jungle Jet" - what a waste of their massive 1500 hours experience...
Need To Speed
Join Date: Oct 2007
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As a slightly under 200 hour CPL student who is almost 40 years old and wanted to fly since 2 (and i'm sure there are many of us out there), i would be happy to fly turboprops for the rest of my life.
I understand that the pay and T&C's for Aussie pilots is crap compared to pilots in other countries and from where i'm sitting right now i see that this will change as the airlines don't have much choice. This means that young people may well see aviation as a good career choice again. But not at the moment.
I can't understand the mindset of companies like REX who would rather have aircraft sitting on the ground than pay their pilots more money or better T&C's. Surely an aircraft sitting on the ground is costing money in terms of lost passenger revenue as well as the maintenance required to keep it airworthy. I know from working on military jets that if they sit still for even a few weeks, then they need a good seeing over before they can fly again. I think Qantaslink and Rex will have to wake up soon. The writing is on the wall.
Like I already mentioned, i would be happy to fly turboprops forever. better than sitting at a desk all day.
I understand that the pay and T&C's for Aussie pilots is crap compared to pilots in other countries and from where i'm sitting right now i see that this will change as the airlines don't have much choice. This means that young people may well see aviation as a good career choice again. But not at the moment.
I can't understand the mindset of companies like REX who would rather have aircraft sitting on the ground than pay their pilots more money or better T&C's. Surely an aircraft sitting on the ground is costing money in terms of lost passenger revenue as well as the maintenance required to keep it airworthy. I know from working on military jets that if they sit still for even a few weeks, then they need a good seeing over before they can fly again. I think Qantaslink and Rex will have to wake up soon. The writing is on the wall.
Like I already mentioned, i would be happy to fly turboprops forever. better than sitting at a desk all day.
If you want to keep your Capt's in the regionals and not loose them to larger (Jet) operators, then you will have to pay them jet money! Many will stay for the lifestyle, but the extra jink is what is needed to keep a stable workforce of Capts. There will soon be no F/Os suitable for upgrade. What happens then when the Capts keep leaving?? Senior QL management are just not across this aspect and unless they do something real soon there will be parked Dash's about the country. Direct entry commands are a distinct possibility if they want to keep flying. There are many qualified Dash pilots in South Africa who would be in Oz in a flash for a command, just to get out of the crime jungle over there.
As for career progression... it was knocked back in 1990 or thereabouts by the Eastern pilots - QF have yet to open the door again on that.
Best way into QF is to work for Kendell/Rex or similar regional.
As for career progression... it was knocked back in 1990 or thereabouts by the Eastern pilots - QF have yet to open the door again on that.
Best way into QF is to work for Kendell/Rex or similar regional.
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Its already too late...... 10 Capts waiting for sim slots will be leaving in the next few months. Currently there are 6 F/O's with the requirements for command upgrade - so I'm told. Now Lidbury wants to know "is this pilot shortage real?" I want to know if HE is for real................Services already being cancelled in record numbers and Dash 8's parked with no crew. Wonder how their bonuses are looking?
Join Date: Sep 2006
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possible 'fix'
Correct me if I'm wrong here but the traditional way of the pilot career in the past was to some degree to start at the bottom of any Co. that had a career path for bigger & better things. You started for Eg. flying the basic small machines for a few years to gain further experience (this could also have been via the GA fraternity if there was no low end division) then you stepped up the ladder one rung to say a mid sized job that had 2 crew & flew that for a few years R/H seat also futher gathering experience along the way eventually getting a CMD. Then finally after many years in the Co. you stepped inside their top range plane as an F/O did yr time in the R/H seat then again went to the L/H seat to see out yr career. This situation was how it was for many years in Co's that had a structure as described above. Simply called a career path.
Nowadays we have independant operators (well offshoots of majors) that only operate one type or close to it allowing little advancement upwards (regionals typical here) even within their own Co. Obviously this has a twofold effect. No advancement in more complexe types mean little in the way of remuneration increases. Secondly & we are dealing with humans here we/they get bored with doing the same thing on the same type day in day out. And that coupled with low pay we have arrived at where we are these days, as testament shows amongst the thousands of pages here.
Possible fix????............well hypothecially to some degree here but plausable (cause it's a diff model now) is to have once again a combined career structure for the pilots giving them one simple thing .................hope, a future & a chance when due to advance without having to feel as tho there is nowhere to go & yr just a number!
I don't know the answers to all this, maybe there isn't one 'till we see some major player/s almost fold & that means the horse has to bolt first............the 'gate' is wide open at the moment, just remains to be seen who goes first!
CW
Nowadays we have independant operators (well offshoots of majors) that only operate one type or close to it allowing little advancement upwards (regionals typical here) even within their own Co. Obviously this has a twofold effect. No advancement in more complexe types mean little in the way of remuneration increases. Secondly & we are dealing with humans here we/they get bored with doing the same thing on the same type day in day out. And that coupled with low pay we have arrived at where we are these days, as testament shows amongst the thousands of pages here.
Possible fix????............well hypothecially to some degree here but plausable (cause it's a diff model now) is to have once again a combined career structure for the pilots giving them one simple thing .................hope, a future & a chance when due to advance without having to feel as tho there is nowhere to go & yr just a number!
I don't know the answers to all this, maybe there isn't one 'till we see some major player/s almost fold & that means the horse has to bolt first............the 'gate' is wide open at the moment, just remains to be seen who goes first!
CW
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...management allways looked like they were incompetent. move over i say, give me a job in there and you can have my instructing job, see how long it takes before you want your regional job back.
You'd be in great demand Triathlon!
Sadly, this is the very problem alot of airlines STILL have, in this whole region... incompetent management unable to "read the signs", adapt to change and engage the workers in a positive manner .
You'd be in great demand Triathlon!
Sadly, this is the very problem alot of airlines STILL have, in this whole region... incompetent management unable to "read the signs", adapt to change and engage the workers in a positive manner .
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There will be no progression from the regionals to mainline while GD is driving Q.... for the record eastern pilots did not knock back career progression into qantas it was never offered, career progression is, when your number comes up you get the chance to bid for another type, all qantas wanted and has ever offered is to be able to pick and chose! you have always if selected had to resign from the regionals and start again. the latest agreement makes it even harder to move from the regionals to qantas as you have to have two years worth of high scores on cyclic sessions as well as all the other requirements.
there is one exception to the rule the cadets who are placed in the regionals have a Qantas Seniority Number and will move on to mainline after two years! But the pilots who trained them and the captains who they flew with are not able....
Well done qantas management setting up a training organization (qantaslink) for Virgin....
there is one exception to the rule the cadets who are placed in the regionals have a Qantas Seniority Number and will move on to mainline after two years! But the pilots who trained them and the captains who they flew with are not able....
Well done qantas management setting up a training organization (qantaslink) for Virgin....
Just from an outsider's perception,
management only ever seem to respond to anything that makes them look bad. Ok, so everyone in the industry can see they are incompetant - and from the sound of it, esp at Rex, they don't seem to care. Infact, they even have the nerve to make the pilots look greedy, disloyal and uncaring to the communities they serve - through the media.
Fight fire with fire, its about time the public understood that:
1) you are not the 'glorified bus drivers' that airlines and politicians enjoy making you out to be. You are every bit as qualified as a surgeon, and generally responsible for a lot more lives on a daily basis! You worked hard on little/no money to get where you are, and unlike most surgeons, you are still plugging away back of the clock, and have little/no control over your work life (birthdays, weddings, anniversaries - you have all worked them, and will for the rest of your career!)
2) your employers are making a mint - and their attitude of letting the numbers dwindle to the point of cancelling flights is absolutely no less of an inconvenience to joe bloggs as to pilots going on strike - effectively the company is on strike because it won't compromise. The company is cancelling their flights, not the pilots. (poorly made point i know).
I've had a number of conversations with friends/family/strangers etc recently who blame the 'greedy pilots'. These very people are under the impression that you ALL earn $200,000 a year and spend week long layovers at tropical resorts...
So, make the public understand, make your managers look bad to people outside this industry, and force them into negotiating something fair, and most of all SAFE! Use your unions, like other industries, to get this stuff into the media.
The majority of the pax are not sympathetic to you at the moment - they need to understand. Before these managers destroy YOUR airline and YOUR job.
management only ever seem to respond to anything that makes them look bad. Ok, so everyone in the industry can see they are incompetant - and from the sound of it, esp at Rex, they don't seem to care. Infact, they even have the nerve to make the pilots look greedy, disloyal and uncaring to the communities they serve - through the media.
Fight fire with fire, its about time the public understood that:
1) you are not the 'glorified bus drivers' that airlines and politicians enjoy making you out to be. You are every bit as qualified as a surgeon, and generally responsible for a lot more lives on a daily basis! You worked hard on little/no money to get where you are, and unlike most surgeons, you are still plugging away back of the clock, and have little/no control over your work life (birthdays, weddings, anniversaries - you have all worked them, and will for the rest of your career!)
2) your employers are making a mint - and their attitude of letting the numbers dwindle to the point of cancelling flights is absolutely no less of an inconvenience to joe bloggs as to pilots going on strike - effectively the company is on strike because it won't compromise. The company is cancelling their flights, not the pilots. (poorly made point i know).
I've had a number of conversations with friends/family/strangers etc recently who blame the 'greedy pilots'. These very people are under the impression that you ALL earn $200,000 a year and spend week long layovers at tropical resorts...
So, make the public understand, make your managers look bad to people outside this industry, and force them into negotiating something fair, and most of all SAFE! Use your unions, like other industries, to get this stuff into the media.
The majority of the pax are not sympathetic to you at the moment - they need to understand. Before these managers destroy YOUR airline and YOUR job.
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You hit the nail on the head Newsensation.
The only way to arrest attrition is the 3-stage approach I have openly advocated on this and another forum.
There is so much inertia (and a firm belief that this pilot shortage will all be over in 2 years) in management that I think it will all be over before anything further is done.
Pretty sad, really.........
The only way to arrest attrition is the 3-stage approach I have openly advocated on this and another forum.
There is so much inertia (and a firm belief that this pilot shortage will all be over in 2 years) in management that I think it will all be over before anything further is done.
Pretty sad, really.........
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These very people are under the impression that you ALL earn $200,000 a year and spend week long layovers at tropical resorts...