At drinks with the Jetstar Boss
Nunc est bibendum
GB, a former colleague of mine got her US ATPLs and has converted it to an Aussie one with a minimum of fuss. A flight test was included and an Air Leg exam but certainly not the entirety of the ATPL subjects. The reason I know this is that although she has an Aussie ATPL, she doesn't qualify for entry into QF due to not having the Aussie subjects- a uniquely QF requirement.
I'm not sure whether DJ of J* require the Aussie subjects or whether they're just happy with the CPL and Aussie subjects or an Aussie ATPL.
If the shortage starts to really bite then perhaps we'll see QF drop the requirements for the Aussie subjects as well and accept either those or the Aussie ATPL.
I suspect I know which one they'll go for!
Unless aircraft has had a 'road to Damascus' style conversion it appears that fearcampaign is not him! I was wrrrrrrrrr......I was wrrrooo......I may not have been correct in my earlier assertion!
I'm not sure whether DJ of J* require the Aussie subjects or whether they're just happy with the CPL and Aussie subjects or an Aussie ATPL.
If the shortage starts to really bite then perhaps we'll see QF drop the requirements for the Aussie subjects as well and accept either those or the Aussie ATPL.
I suspect I know which one they'll go for!
Unless aircraft has had a 'road to Damascus' style conversion it appears that fearcampaign is not him! I was wrrrrrrrrr......I was wrrrooo......I may not have been correct in my earlier assertion!
a uniquely QF requirement
There are a few ex USAF guys in QF, didn't think that they redid all their subjects. Work Visa's usually prevent any American from flying over here unless they marry an Aussie.
Nunc est bibendum
Fair enough Nev. Must have had a brain failure as the mind was thinking of the word 'typical' and somehow the word 'unique' ended up there! 
FP Ace, I'm one of probably not many people in Australia who did a 'single paper' ATPL exam of sorts in Australia. Two exams, a four hour one and a three hour one covering all subjects and done all in the one day. No surprise that it didn't last very long in that format! 
FP Ace, I'm one of probably not many people in Australia who did a 'single paper' ATPL exam of sorts in Australia. Two exams, a four hour one and a three hour one covering all subjects and done all in the one day.
No surprise that it didn't last very long in that format!
On Guard and Fearcampaign....two excellent posts.
Bottom line: Supply & Demand. For years Cathay in HK were implying there were 'hoardes' of Mainland Chinese pilots that could be used to replace troublesome (but grrr, admittedly very safe) westerners. THEY WEREN'T THERE. In fact the Chinese airlines are noe employing Westerners. The same applies globally with pilots now. They've all been snapped up by their own local carriers, new low cost operators and Middle Eastern Airlines. Barring any global catastrophe, the shortage is biting but hasn't had 1/4 of the impact it will have.
Yes, Supply and Demand is the bottom line.
However: Forget business acumen, will pilots be cohesive enough to take FULL advantage of the situation..No way. A greedier more self-serving bunch would be hard to find (except for the Geoff Dixon/Alan Joices of the world).
In Australia the only way these improvements will take place is if AIPA, JPC and AFAP put aside past differences, work intelligently to take advantage of changing political momentum and unite and work to achieve a standard salary/type across the industry. And people - don't pay for endorsements!
Will pilots work cohesively for their own benefit. IMHO Fat chance (but I live in hope).
Bottom line: Supply & Demand. For years Cathay in HK were implying there were 'hoardes' of Mainland Chinese pilots that could be used to replace troublesome (but grrr, admittedly very safe) westerners. THEY WEREN'T THERE. In fact the Chinese airlines are noe employing Westerners. The same applies globally with pilots now. They've all been snapped up by their own local carriers, new low cost operators and Middle Eastern Airlines. Barring any global catastrophe, the shortage is biting but hasn't had 1/4 of the impact it will have.
Yes, Supply and Demand is the bottom line.
However: Forget business acumen, will pilots be cohesive enough to take FULL advantage of the situation..No way. A greedier more self-serving bunch would be hard to find (except for the Geoff Dixon/Alan Joices of the world).
In Australia the only way these improvements will take place is if AIPA, JPC and AFAP put aside past differences, work intelligently to take advantage of changing political momentum and unite and work to achieve a standard salary/type across the industry. And people - don't pay for endorsements!
Will pilots work cohesively for their own benefit. IMHO Fat chance (but I live in hope).
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Fearcampaign,
"Geoff Dixon and Alan Joyce are not pushovers and will try to pay pilots as little as they possibly can be it JQ or QF."
As apposed to the managers at other airlines that are just pushovers and cave into the ransom demands made by pilots?
"Our capital cities are not as cheap as they used to be and neither is schooling or health care for a family."
As apposed to other countries around the world? Do you think this argument is unique to Australia?
"Regardless of this "spin" that someone else will do it if you don't, it remains a fact that Jetstar is underpaid on a world average."
Wow, you have undergone the task of averaging pilot income levels worldwide! Did you include the majority of airlines that pay less than Jetstar or did you cunningly select the few that pay more?
"Geoff Dixon and Alan Joyce are not pushovers and will try to pay pilots as little as they possibly can be it JQ or QF."
As apposed to the managers at other airlines that are just pushovers and cave into the ransom demands made by pilots?
"Our capital cities are not as cheap as they used to be and neither is schooling or health care for a family."
As apposed to other countries around the world? Do you think this argument is unique to Australia?
"Regardless of this "spin" that someone else will do it if you don't, it remains a fact that Jetstar is underpaid on a world average."
Wow, you have undergone the task of averaging pilot income levels worldwide! Did you include the majority of airlines that pay less than Jetstar or did you cunningly select the few that pay more?
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EK waking up too
Guys , as far as the Ek thing goes the money is pretty damm good depending on who you talk to.
Yes some costs of living are high (rents) but some are considerably lower (bought two cans of coke and two bottles of small water in jingli corner shop for less than 1.50AUD the other day so depends on what ya do) and depending on your demographics.
(I wont tell you what I earn 'cos that is rude maybe and then management wont want to give me a 20% payrise that the construction workers here got the other day)
Just heard that (and this is not verfied) that EK have let a chap go on leave of absence/furlogh whatever you want to call it for six months to go and have alook at J* 320 op.
That was always hard to get from them but I think they see that sometimes guys - and I did this sort of myself - need a break to see if coming home after 10-12 years is really what they want to do.
If EK keep getting smarter like this they could retain the guys that have been around a while and get them back down the track - sort of like long service leave??
Eventually they might get really clever and come up with remote rostering or temp bases(to get around the tax stuff) with the 70 extra flights a week coming and then they could start to pick up all the relatively low paid yet highly qual'd Aussies at QF and J* and Virgin that seem to be disenchanted with T+C.
Or maybe Etihad and James Hogan will work that out first - bit like the Air China 330 guys in Sydney shortly. The most imaginative options are sometimes the best!! And least expensive!
Food for your thoughts and inputs?
Woodja
Yes some costs of living are high (rents) but some are considerably lower (bought two cans of coke and two bottles of small water in jingli corner shop for less than 1.50AUD the other day so depends on what ya do) and depending on your demographics.
(I wont tell you what I earn 'cos that is rude maybe and then management wont want to give me a 20% payrise that the construction workers here got the other day)
Just heard that (and this is not verfied) that EK have let a chap go on leave of absence/furlogh whatever you want to call it for six months to go and have alook at J* 320 op.
That was always hard to get from them but I think they see that sometimes guys - and I did this sort of myself - need a break to see if coming home after 10-12 years is really what they want to do.
If EK keep getting smarter like this they could retain the guys that have been around a while and get them back down the track - sort of like long service leave??
Eventually they might get really clever and come up with remote rostering or temp bases(to get around the tax stuff) with the 70 extra flights a week coming and then they could start to pick up all the relatively low paid yet highly qual'd Aussies at QF and J* and Virgin that seem to be disenchanted with T+C.
Or maybe Etihad and James Hogan will work that out first - bit like the Air China 330 guys in Sydney shortly. The most imaginative options are sometimes the best!! And least expensive!
Food for your thoughts and inputs?
Woodja
Emirates as is a 3 bedroom villa and many living costs.Salary is also higher
Wrong, Captain salary in EK is about $108,000 AUD a year. Way less than Jetstar. Still have to pay 10% of school fees a figure which is more than some private schools in Australia. Free house yes unless you own one back home. Free power and water yes.
**** salary yes.......................
Wrong, Captain salary in EK is about $108,000 AUD a year. Way less than Jetstar. Still have to pay 10% of school fees a figure which is more than some private schools in Australia. Free house yes unless you own one back home. Free power and water yes.
**** salary yes.......................
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Rambo,
Fair enough but that $100k plus is an after tax amount in Emirates.
If you take taxes and expenses out of Jetstar pay you will have less take home pay in the hand than an Emirates pilot.You will be living in Australia though!!!!!
The intent of my post was to make the point that given the global pilot shortage and the massive expansion of Jetstar that skilled pilots are a rarer commodity than has been the case in the past.The economics of supply and demand argue a case for improvements in pay and or conditions.
If we are going to better terms and conditions then now is the time to achieve it. In years to come we may face a tougher environment and terms and conditions will come under pressure.
This is not the case now so it is time now to make hay while the sun shines.
Mr Joyce is not going to serve it up on a platter for us!!!!!!!!!!
Someone once said to me that most pilots were stupid.If we fail to negotiate better conditions in the current environment then sadly my friend may have a valid point. That other pilots would argue that we deserve to negotiate for less astonishes me!
I hope the JPC can achieve a good result for all.
There is no gun at our heads this time.
History will judge their ability to achieve a result against the backdrop of unprecedented expansion and global pilot shortages.
Fair enough but that $100k plus is an after tax amount in Emirates.
If you take taxes and expenses out of Jetstar pay you will have less take home pay in the hand than an Emirates pilot.You will be living in Australia though!!!!!
The intent of my post was to make the point that given the global pilot shortage and the massive expansion of Jetstar that skilled pilots are a rarer commodity than has been the case in the past.The economics of supply and demand argue a case for improvements in pay and or conditions.
If we are going to better terms and conditions then now is the time to achieve it. In years to come we may face a tougher environment and terms and conditions will come under pressure.
This is not the case now so it is time now to make hay while the sun shines.
Mr Joyce is not going to serve it up on a platter for us!!!!!!!!!!
Someone once said to me that most pilots were stupid.If we fail to negotiate better conditions in the current environment then sadly my friend may have a valid point. That other pilots would argue that we deserve to negotiate for less astonishes me!
I hope the JPC can achieve a good result for all.
There is no gun at our heads this time.
History will judge their ability to achieve a result against the backdrop of unprecedented expansion and global pilot shortages.
fearcampaign,
Hear you loud and clear, as I'm sure the majority of people who read this forum do also. After years of dealing with these characters (airline management), I have concluded that you need leaverage to achieve any sort of result. Harsh language and even logic do not seem to have any affect when it comes to securing a better deal!
In years gone by, work bans or even strike action were the order of the day. The previous government has effectively made illegal even the organised refusal of overtime, not to mention any other sort of industrial action. Whilst I'm not advocating a return to the bad old days, this has resulted in an environment where the prevailing attitude of management has become one of.."There it is. Take it or leave it!"
So what sort of leaverage are we left with? Only one of course, resign and go to an operator that pays more. It was mentioned in a previous thread that it was surprising the Eastern EBA got up with so little achieved. In the current environment that's not surprising. I think you'll find that the majority of those who voted yes probably thought it was a sh!tty deal as well, but what the hell, they're out of there as soon as a better one comes along.
The ironic thing is that the management of QF Link probably thought they had a win. The reality is that they simply made up the minds of those who may have previously been undecided.
My advice in all of this. don't even try and negotiate a better deal. by all means tell them what they need to do to secure skilled labour, and when they fold their arms in defiance, walk away and update your resume'. If you attempt to "negotiate", they will stuff you around like there is no tomorrow, and at that they are experts!
The competition for your skills hasn't even moved into second gear yet. When it really starts to hot up (my prediction early to middle of next year), just watch them scramble in an effort to save the business. by then, as probably even now, it will be too late.
Hear you loud and clear, as I'm sure the majority of people who read this forum do also. After years of dealing with these characters (airline management), I have concluded that you need leaverage to achieve any sort of result. Harsh language and even logic do not seem to have any affect when it comes to securing a better deal!
In years gone by, work bans or even strike action were the order of the day. The previous government has effectively made illegal even the organised refusal of overtime, not to mention any other sort of industrial action. Whilst I'm not advocating a return to the bad old days, this has resulted in an environment where the prevailing attitude of management has become one of.."There it is. Take it or leave it!"
So what sort of leaverage are we left with? Only one of course, resign and go to an operator that pays more. It was mentioned in a previous thread that it was surprising the Eastern EBA got up with so little achieved. In the current environment that's not surprising. I think you'll find that the majority of those who voted yes probably thought it was a sh!tty deal as well, but what the hell, they're out of there as soon as a better one comes along.
The ironic thing is that the management of QF Link probably thought they had a win. The reality is that they simply made up the minds of those who may have previously been undecided.
My advice in all of this. don't even try and negotiate a better deal. by all means tell them what they need to do to secure skilled labour, and when they fold their arms in defiance, walk away and update your resume'. If you attempt to "negotiate", they will stuff you around like there is no tomorrow, and at that they are experts!
The competition for your skills hasn't even moved into second gear yet. When it really starts to hot up (my prediction early to middle of next year), just watch them scramble in an effort to save the business. by then, as probably even now, it will be too late.
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Dragonair is experiencing a similar phenomenon at present, and if what I hear is correct, then the recent negotiations held with KA management didn't go well and it seems that only a 5% increase was achieved.
There has already been a significant amount of resignations, with one fellow going to J* as an F/O but has now been offered a direct entry Command based in Melbourne! There are plenty of very young experienced A320/330 rated Aussie Captains here (with the Airbus ratings on their Aussie ATPL) who have applied to J* and Tiger.
Whilst the salary package here is a bit better in real terms, the lifestyle (including horrendous pollution levels) seriously sucks, and many have now decided that any basing on any salary back home is better than this.
Watch out!
BNS
There has already been a significant amount of resignations, with one fellow going to J* as an F/O but has now been offered a direct entry Command based in Melbourne! There are plenty of very young experienced A320/330 rated Aussie Captains here (with the Airbus ratings on their Aussie ATPL) who have applied to J* and Tiger.
Whilst the salary package here is a bit better in real terms, the lifestyle (including horrendous pollution levels) seriously sucks, and many have now decided that any basing on any salary back home is better than this.
Watch out!
BNS
Woodja,
Could you advise what it was that caused you to return to EK (from working in Oz I assume). Was it the company (meaning that EK was much better) or seeking a lifestyle that couldn't meet your expectations?
I ask b/c I was talking to a friend recently about those wanting to return to Oz (not me, well not yet!!) and we agreed that a lot of people would be seeking to work for an airline (and it's associated gr8 lifestyle) that is now a distant memory in the past. Don't get me wrong, living in Oz is a wonderful thing, but some of these new carriers that are talking about pilots flying 1000 hours a year to me suggests achieving that (dream) lifestyle could be challenging.
Thanks,
b.
Could you advise what it was that caused you to return to EK (from working in Oz I assume). Was it the company (meaning that EK was much better) or seeking a lifestyle that couldn't meet your expectations?
I ask b/c I was talking to a friend recently about those wanting to return to Oz (not me, well not yet!!) and we agreed that a lot of people would be seeking to work for an airline (and it's associated gr8 lifestyle) that is now a distant memory in the past. Don't get me wrong, living in Oz is a wonderful thing, but some of these new carriers that are talking about pilots flying 1000 hours a year to me suggests achieving that (dream) lifestyle could be challenging.
Thanks,
b.
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VA and J* would have to offering a very good incentive to come back to Oz. Aside from living tax free overseas, any investments back in Australia are ticking over with a low tax rate.
Consider:
Own a house in an Australian capital city? Rent it out (at say, $400 per week)and the income is taxed at 29%, Feed that cash into a unit trust that returns on average 10% over 10 years or so and you're coming home to a golden pot.
Not only that, not everyone on contracts are paid in USD. many are paid in Yen, Euros, Rupees, Honko Dollars, ect ; EK boys might be interested if the Dirahm is still linked to the green back.
Sure the Aussie economy looks good at the moment, but how will things be in 3-5 years time? Things have never looked better for Contract Pilots. The contract world still overs the best and probably only chance for Australian pilots to have a career and retire as a multi-millionaire.
Consider:
Own a house in an Australian capital city? Rent it out (at say, $400 per week)and the income is taxed at 29%, Feed that cash into a unit trust that returns on average 10% over 10 years or so and you're coming home to a golden pot.
Not only that, not everyone on contracts are paid in USD. many are paid in Yen, Euros, Rupees, Honko Dollars, ect ; EK boys might be interested if the Dirahm is still linked to the green back.
Sure the Aussie economy looks good at the moment, but how will things be in 3-5 years time? Things have never looked better for Contract Pilots. The contract world still overs the best and probably only chance for Australian pilots to have a career and retire as a multi-millionaire.
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And what happens when the arse falls out of the economy?
Wholesale sackings 'cos your Collective Agreement allows it ?.
Who is Management going to sack first? Is it by seniority,last on first off ?, are you sure now?
What sort of redundancy package are you going to get?
Looking at the Qantas Long Haul agreement that a mate gave me to read I can now see why pilots went on strike back in the early '60's to get the North American Contract.
It appears that this contract/award is a very descriptive work.
I'm told the descriptive nature of the contract was to protect the pilots as a direct consequence of the bastardry dished out by Management of the time ,sound familiar.
The result is now over 40 years of industrial harmony (he says tongue in cheek) for Qantas. I wonder how much longer that's going to last?
Is it any wonder that so many pilots are worried. No longer is there a cushioning from the real world through a protective Contract/Award.
Yes I know ,welcome to the real world.
However what can history tell us about what is now transpiring?
Look back to the 50's and 60's.
Post WW2 lots of demobbed trained pilots, result, crap pay and conditions, supply and demand and all that.
It however still cost a small fortune relative to average wage even back then to learn to fly. End result ,aviation was never a first choice as a career for anyone but the passionate.
Then comes the Jet age , aircraft become more economical , there is a massive expansion , guess what ,not enough pilots to feed the expansion though, because the pay was crap and you were never home,so not enough people could afford or want to be a pilot. Solution, the airlines had to pay people to become pilots.
Move forward a few years and the growing numbers of pilots become more politically savvy and the end result after a lot of industrial argy bargy was a water tight contract that went a long way towards neutering what management euphemistically called their "Management Perogative"
Fast forward even further to today and the wheel appears to have turned full circle.
I wonder what happens next with this little story?
Wholesale sackings 'cos your Collective Agreement allows it ?.
Who is Management going to sack first? Is it by seniority,last on first off ?, are you sure now?
What sort of redundancy package are you going to get?
Looking at the Qantas Long Haul agreement that a mate gave me to read I can now see why pilots went on strike back in the early '60's to get the North American Contract.
It appears that this contract/award is a very descriptive work.
I'm told the descriptive nature of the contract was to protect the pilots as a direct consequence of the bastardry dished out by Management of the time ,sound familiar.
The result is now over 40 years of industrial harmony (he says tongue in cheek) for Qantas. I wonder how much longer that's going to last?
Is it any wonder that so many pilots are worried. No longer is there a cushioning from the real world through a protective Contract/Award.
Yes I know ,welcome to the real world.
However what can history tell us about what is now transpiring?
Look back to the 50's and 60's.
Post WW2 lots of demobbed trained pilots, result, crap pay and conditions, supply and demand and all that.
It however still cost a small fortune relative to average wage even back then to learn to fly. End result ,aviation was never a first choice as a career for anyone but the passionate.
Then comes the Jet age , aircraft become more economical , there is a massive expansion , guess what ,not enough pilots to feed the expansion though, because the pay was crap and you were never home,so not enough people could afford or want to be a pilot. Solution, the airlines had to pay people to become pilots.
Move forward a few years and the growing numbers of pilots become more politically savvy and the end result after a lot of industrial argy bargy was a water tight contract that went a long way towards neutering what management euphemistically called their "Management Perogative"
Fast forward even further to today and the wheel appears to have turned full circle.
I wonder what happens next with this little story?
Max; I concur and...
What many overlook, and QF (ie the management) NEVER acknowledge is that the long-haul certified agreement was between, understandably, two parties; the pilots' association and QF.
The agreement has protections and provisions serving both sides which were nutted out over many iterations through good and hard times. Its detail has arisen out of decades of massaging issues like crewing, duty limits, lay-overs, accommodation standards, lifestyle, profitability, and, yes, flexibility. That's why it's so detailed!
QF have never in my time acknowledged the virtue of things like:
- the post-9/11 pay freeze its pilots willingly accepted in the circumstances,
- pilot contactability provisions,
- the 'riot' clause,
- the economies afforded by 4-pilot, 2-S/O flight decks, or
- the historical propensity of of the majority of its pilots to do more than the contract minimums when needed,
but they sure know how to p155 pilots off with their industrial behaviour over the last few years.
For outsiders and newcomers to the industry (managers or pilots) to say the agreement is too prescriptive, inflexible, or just plain silly is to blindly underrate some very hard-won and ultimately sensible planning & protective clauses on both sides. Does anyone else see irony in the opportunism of some (no, not all!) who willingly, scornfully and vociferously undercut the longhaul award but would now seek to use the 'pilot shortage' to leverage their smugly lower pay and conditions (helped get a faster promotion though) closer to what the QF longhaul award always proscribed? Pilots too! Go figure...
The agreement has protections and provisions serving both sides which were nutted out over many iterations through good and hard times. Its detail has arisen out of decades of massaging issues like crewing, duty limits, lay-overs, accommodation standards, lifestyle, profitability, and, yes, flexibility. That's why it's so detailed!
QF have never in my time acknowledged the virtue of things like:
- the post-9/11 pay freeze its pilots willingly accepted in the circumstances,
- pilot contactability provisions,
- the 'riot' clause,
- the economies afforded by 4-pilot, 2-S/O flight decks, or
- the historical propensity of of the majority of its pilots to do more than the contract minimums when needed,
but they sure know how to p155 pilots off with their industrial behaviour over the last few years.
For outsiders and newcomers to the industry (managers or pilots) to say the agreement is too prescriptive, inflexible, or just plain silly is to blindly underrate some very hard-won and ultimately sensible planning & protective clauses on both sides. Does anyone else see irony in the opportunism of some (no, not all!) who willingly, scornfully and vociferously undercut the longhaul award but would now seek to use the 'pilot shortage' to leverage their smugly lower pay and conditions (helped get a faster promotion though) closer to what the QF longhaul award always proscribed? Pilots too! Go figure...
