At drinks with the Jetstar Boss
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Capt Sherm, There is no such things as:
However, there are:
Why should the labour component operate at a "LCC discount", when no other supplier does?
Your arguments also lose credibility when you play the man.
- LCC only discount Fuel.
- LCC only discount Aircraft.
- LCC only discount Spares.
- LCC only discount Government Taxes & Charges.
- LCC only discount Landing charges.
However, there are:
- LCC Booking flexibility -At a significant price if available at all.
- LCC Network topologies - Efficient aircraft utilisation (the reason not all bus routes yet covered)
- LCC Catering - Buy your own on board.
- LCC Customer Service - Reduced.
- LCC Baggage - No interline, excess baggage charges ruthlessly applied.
- LCC Connections - Unsuited to time poor.
- LCC Terminals - Lower quality, secondary airports.
- LCC Reservations systems.
- LCC Common fleet - Reduced training / maintenance /spares.
- LCC lounges - None
Why should the labour component operate at a "LCC discount", when no other supplier does?
Your arguments also lose credibility when you play the man.
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Ahhh, now it all falls into place. Ex blue shirt now on 777 with SQ and coming back to join the botherhood empire of AN on J* A320's while waiting for your 787 job. No wonder QF and J* are so "wonderful".
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A raise in pilot income will stuff the LCC model eh? Lead by example Mr CEO and stop taking massive pay rises every F&*king year ,yet crying that if anyone else takes one it will destroy the very model that is 'fragile'..
What a ruse. Game's up AJ, you have had your 5 minutes. You order aircraft and increase profit so you get a pay rise. More pilots needed? Then pay what's required. Give up the Dixon poormouth winge.
What a ruse. Game's up AJ, you have had your 5 minutes. You order aircraft and increase profit so you get a pay rise. More pilots needed? Then pay what's required. Give up the Dixon poormouth winge.
Correct that Southwest are the best paid pax carriers in the states,however Sherm you will find they are one of the only majors there that does NOT have a unionized workforce.
AJ is feeling the pressure!
J* has complained recently to mainline QF that QF had pinched pilots that J* was in the process of recruiting. CM's response was to the effect, "Mainline needs them and we'll take every one we can get", ie get stuffed.
The pilot shortage has moved up the totem pole from REX to J* & DJ with mailine QF also having problems. If J* pilots don't stand their ground now and get better remuneration then you deserve the contempt of their peers - you made a mistake a few years ago, now is the time to correct it. Dixon has been using J* staff as pawns to undermine mainline T's & C's but this pilot shortage is a weapon that can be used to turn it around and get remuneration appropriate to the high cost of acquiring pilot skills. Once J* pilot T's & C's have been raised, then the pilot group can truly unite in the industrial sense.
The pilot shortage has moved up the totem pole from REX to J* & DJ with mailine QF also having problems. If J* pilots don't stand their ground now and get better remuneration then you deserve the contempt of their peers - you made a mistake a few years ago, now is the time to correct it. Dixon has been using J* staff as pawns to undermine mainline T's & C's but this pilot shortage is a weapon that can be used to turn it around and get remuneration appropriate to the high cost of acquiring pilot skills. Once J* pilot T's & C's have been raised, then the pilot group can truly unite in the industrial sense.
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Capt Sherm,
That ok for you to want to work for peanuts now. You saw the glory days, we haven't. I don't want to live in Vaucluse, how stupid is that, most of us now can't afford anything in the inner West or down in Melbourne area's like Brunswick, before you sprout off, have a look at the Domain online and see what the outer areas are worth, excess of $500-$600k and they need a reno maybe you have been in Korea or Singa's too long and just want to come home at any cost. You say if we don't like it we can leave, how about you stay in Asia and not accept below par conditions to fly the 787 so our conditions can improve.
I understand the arguments, some of what you say makes some sense, Lot's of jobs for everyone, QF's expansion strategy etc etc. But we can't also defy the fact that the way these airlines stay competitive is to lower conditions such as pay for you own endorsement (How many have you paid for, $30000 grand dents the down payment on the house in Vaucluse). You have cabin crew and pilots at Tiger now on AWA's that provide substandard conditions, Qf cabin crew on contract terms, and these people want to work and have a job, but its causes so much stress on family life and because they are on crap rostering systems. But on your rationale, they have a job. That is such an easy attitude to have when you lived in an era of high pay, great rostering protection, good crew meals, paid endorsements, no capital gains, university fee's paid for, and homes that were relatively cheaper than todays standards.
You say leave if you don't like it. Easy to say when you are the end of your career not at the start. If it all gets too hard for you, you just retire, yet I have a 20 plus years left in this game and if I see an opportunity to further my earning potential by taking advantage of a pilot shortage I will. And I think anyone who doesn't needs to dust off those free paid uni books and read ECO 101,102,103 again!
That ok for you to want to work for peanuts now. You saw the glory days, we haven't. I don't want to live in Vaucluse, how stupid is that, most of us now can't afford anything in the inner West or down in Melbourne area's like Brunswick, before you sprout off, have a look at the Domain online and see what the outer areas are worth, excess of $500-$600k and they need a reno maybe you have been in Korea or Singa's too long and just want to come home at any cost. You say if we don't like it we can leave, how about you stay in Asia and not accept below par conditions to fly the 787 so our conditions can improve.
I understand the arguments, some of what you say makes some sense, Lot's of jobs for everyone, QF's expansion strategy etc etc. But we can't also defy the fact that the way these airlines stay competitive is to lower conditions such as pay for you own endorsement (How many have you paid for, $30000 grand dents the down payment on the house in Vaucluse). You have cabin crew and pilots at Tiger now on AWA's that provide substandard conditions, Qf cabin crew on contract terms, and these people want to work and have a job, but its causes so much stress on family life and because they are on crap rostering systems. But on your rationale, they have a job. That is such an easy attitude to have when you lived in an era of high pay, great rostering protection, good crew meals, paid endorsements, no capital gains, university fee's paid for, and homes that were relatively cheaper than todays standards.
You say leave if you don't like it. Easy to say when you are the end of your career not at the start. If it all gets too hard for you, you just retire, yet I have a 20 plus years left in this game and if I see an opportunity to further my earning potential by taking advantage of a pilot shortage I will. And I think anyone who doesn't needs to dust off those free paid uni books and read ECO 101,102,103 again!
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Never did wear a blue shirt actually.
Yes life was more pampered way back then....but jobs were fewer by far, and opportunities much more limited. In hindsight the Two Airline Policy was a straightjacket.
And like many of my generation I did have some years in my late 30s and 40's out of the cockpit before finally heading OS to ensure my kids could be brought up. So not all beer and skittles. And, after paying in blood flying a narrow body "single pilot" for a few years I did pay for my heavy Boeing rating....and happily so as it gave me years of fun and paid for itself over and over.
I, like may others, have helped build airlines and seen them fail or never get started, I have lived far from my children and I have lived in strange and distant worlds where my only friends were "exiled" pilots from '89. Not the toughest of times but enough. And I know that for all that, the most important thing for any young pilot is the first RPT jet job. A 2000 hr pilot joining Jetstar tomorrow could expect to be a 787 Captain in a time span easlily counted using the fingers of both hands, with a few left over.
Hmmmm...I waited 15 years for a DC-9.
As for "free university"...yes it was....but the hours and hours and hours when others werre in the bar on layovers wasn't free. That was my contribution....and hence my attitude that you have to give things a go, and be prepared to move and try new things.
This is unique time in Australia's history with order books full for the 320, 380, 777, 787 and Embraer....In the case of the 320, 380 and 787 these are orders as big (or bigger) than any in the world. I simply hope that we as a profession don't let blind ideology of whatever sort get in the way of enjoying it.
Yes life was more pampered way back then....but jobs were fewer by far, and opportunities much more limited. In hindsight the Two Airline Policy was a straightjacket.
And like many of my generation I did have some years in my late 30s and 40's out of the cockpit before finally heading OS to ensure my kids could be brought up. So not all beer and skittles. And, after paying in blood flying a narrow body "single pilot" for a few years I did pay for my heavy Boeing rating....and happily so as it gave me years of fun and paid for itself over and over.
I, like may others, have helped build airlines and seen them fail or never get started, I have lived far from my children and I have lived in strange and distant worlds where my only friends were "exiled" pilots from '89. Not the toughest of times but enough. And I know that for all that, the most important thing for any young pilot is the first RPT jet job. A 2000 hr pilot joining Jetstar tomorrow could expect to be a 787 Captain in a time span easlily counted using the fingers of both hands, with a few left over.
Hmmmm...I waited 15 years for a DC-9.
As for "free university"...yes it was....but the hours and hours and hours when others werre in the bar on layovers wasn't free. That was my contribution....and hence my attitude that you have to give things a go, and be prepared to move and try new things.
This is unique time in Australia's history with order books full for the 320, 380, 777, 787 and Embraer....In the case of the 320, 380 and 787 these are orders as big (or bigger) than any in the world. I simply hope that we as a profession don't let blind ideology of whatever sort get in the way of enjoying it.
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Correct that Southwest are the best paid pax carriers in the states,however Sherm you will find they are one of the only majors there that does NOT have a unionized workforce.
They have lucrative profit-sharing arrangements with their company, as well as wage increases directly tied to company profit increases of up to 8%!
Southwest has also had a management which was far better to negotiate with than those in JQ and QF.
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Thanks Mr. Krueger for throwing some logic down on the thread. My opinion here from a second year economics background is that your wages component should not be a critical aspect of your business model. The reasons are that it is too unstable and flexible to make it something to rely on. If you were to do that at a time of undersupply and significant movement you would be setting yourself up for too many surprises.
What will happen when all those FO's you trained decide to move on to international carriers who pay better? You can get them early when they need the start but retention is the challenge of modern aviation HR. It doesn't make good business sense to not pay your pilots a wage that keeps them and attracts new players.
It's lazy to look for significant savings from wages by not raising them. Look to productivity and staffing levels, bargain to get more for a little more money. There are many ways to increase the viability of your business model without putting your staff offside and hence not getting the most out of them. This whole argument of labour costs being the thing that keeps a company alive is dated and scaremongering. If you had some intelligent managers they'd not go the simple option every time and put some lasting structures in place to retain, attract and get the most out of good staff. All the while having a sustainable, profitable and growing company.
Sorry for ranting but the forest trees thing is old.
What will happen when all those FO's you trained decide to move on to international carriers who pay better? You can get them early when they need the start but retention is the challenge of modern aviation HR. It doesn't make good business sense to not pay your pilots a wage that keeps them and attracts new players.
It's lazy to look for significant savings from wages by not raising them. Look to productivity and staffing levels, bargain to get more for a little more money. There are many ways to increase the viability of your business model without putting your staff offside and hence not getting the most out of them. This whole argument of labour costs being the thing that keeps a company alive is dated and scaremongering. If you had some intelligent managers they'd not go the simple option every time and put some lasting structures in place to retain, attract and get the most out of good staff. All the while having a sustainable, profitable and growing company.
Sorry for ranting but the forest trees thing is old.
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The LCC model is a business model that works. If you don't like it leave. People are still sitting up all night on buses around Australia and the LCC doesn't yet serve every route. Do you really expect to get that growth in jobs and airframes out of a full-cost QF model?
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Of interesting note just ONE of the four Jumbo classics doing the domestic flying between PER and MEL/SYD made a multiple of the entire J* net profit. Thats both their combined Domestic/International operation making less than one mainline aircraft. I wonder which operation offers a better cost of capital return???????
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Can anybody have an educated guess as to what percentage of revenue are pilots wages? ie for Jetstar, QF, Virgin.
I guess around 1 %.
What percentage of revenue is gobbled up by fuel?
Can anyone guess how much it cost to have pi55ed off pilots in charge of the go-go levers, as opposed to pilots who are sharing in the profit of the airline?
I guess around 1 %.
What percentage of revenue is gobbled up by fuel?
Can anyone guess how much it cost to have pi55ed off pilots in charge of the go-go levers, as opposed to pilots who are sharing in the profit of the airline?
Maybe my sarcasm detector is on the fritz, but here goes!!
Firstly, flatly untrue. Pay and conditions are vastly superior virtually everywhere in Europe and in equivelent airlines in America and Asia.
Secondly, so what? There is no such thing as an LCC pilot any more than there is LCC fuel. J* is not competeing only with other LCCs for pilots, but with airlines world wide. I just flew with one of the ten ex VB pilots (and he was a VB Captain) who have come here as FOs, a J* guy just moved in across the street, and we have 8 QF guys in various stages of training as they were sick of their futures being sold down the river by J*.
I qualify for a 787 slot, but I won't be coming as J* DON"T PAY ENOUGH! I know the new Airbus (and soon to be Boeing) CP personally and know his biggest worry is where he is going to find the pilots to fly the big, shiny jets.
UTTER,UTTER,UTTER crap!
Then the LCC model is fataly flawed in Australia.
If CEO pay is the same, why not Pilot pay?
And they should do this why? So AJ can collect his bonus? So lots of OTHER pilots can get low-paid jobs?
We are well into structually creatng a crisis for ALL Australian airlines as there simply isn't the incentive to become a pilot in the first place. Following your logic, we should be going into the schools and saying "PLEASE forget Medicine or Law, we NEED you to come and earn less than half as a J* pilot to ensure our phenominal growth"
Right...
Jetstar pilots have a fantastic package.Your conditions are the envy of all LCC's around the world.
Secondly, so what? There is no such thing as an LCC pilot any more than there is LCC fuel. J* is not competeing only with other LCCs for pilots, but with airlines world wide. I just flew with one of the ten ex VB pilots (and he was a VB Captain) who have come here as FOs, a J* guy just moved in across the street, and we have 8 QF guys in various stages of training as they were sick of their futures being sold down the river by J*.
I qualify for a 787 slot, but I won't be coming as J* DON"T PAY ENOUGH! I know the new Airbus (and soon to be Boeing) CP personally and know his biggest worry is where he is going to find the pilots to fly the big, shiny jets.
Southwest pilots would jump at your pay and conditions given the chance.
If you were to be paid any more the LCC model would collapse in Australia.
Then the LCC model is fataly flawed in Australia.
CEO pay is irrelevant as executive pay in Jetstar is equal to that of overseas low cost airlines.
Jetstar pilots can make a real difference by containing costs in a period of great expansion and pilot shortages.
We are well into structually creatng a crisis for ALL Australian airlines as there simply isn't the incentive to become a pilot in the first place. Following your logic, we should be going into the schools and saying "PLEASE forget Medicine or Law, we NEED you to come and earn less than half as a J* pilot to ensure our phenominal growth"
Right...
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fearcampaign,
You are a lost soul.
CEO's should lead by example. Their pay is highly relevant especially when they get massive pay rises.
Don't be so fickle and naive.
You are a lost soul.
CEO's should lead by example. Their pay is highly relevant especially when they get massive pay rises.
Don't be so fickle and naive.
Yes exactley,
If he was just on a fishing expedition, he did a very good job. Sounded JUST sincere enough to be an actual Wally, not just a troll.
If he did suck me in than I guess my reputation as an astute observer is, well, just as non-existant as always!!!
If he was just on a fishing expedition, he did a very good job. Sounded JUST sincere enough to be an actual Wally, not just a troll.
If he did suck me in than I guess my reputation as an astute observer is, well, just as non-existant as always!!!
What percentage of revenue is gobbled up by fuel?
Can anyone guess how much it cost to have pi55ed off pilots in charge of the go-go levers, as opposed to pilots who are sharing in the profit of the airline?
Can anyone guess how much it cost to have pi55ed off pilots in charge of the go-go levers, as opposed to pilots who are sharing in the profit of the airline?
This is the most intelligent post on this thread.
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SWA is over 40 years old, is highly unionized and is more akin to a legacy carrier than an LCC with regard to labor costs. A more accurate yardstick in North America would be newer airlines such as Westjet, Jetblue, Airtran, Frontier, Virgin America and USA3000. The pay and conditions at these airlines signal a new era in employee remuneration within the industry and compare poorly with the salary levels offered by Jetstar.
The low cost carriers in oz, like other parts of the world, have put pressure on pay and conditions but have also provided more opportunities as city pairs become viable that once were not and frequency is increased on services already flown.
Regulation was a protection racket for the lucky few customers and employees that were involved.
The low cost carriers in oz, like other parts of the world, have put pressure on pay and conditions but have also provided more opportunities as city pairs become viable that once were not and frequency is increased on services already flown.
Regulation was a protection racket for the lucky few customers and employees that were involved.
SWA is over 40 years old, is highly unionized and is more akin to a legacy carrier than an LCC with regard to labor costs.
Regulation was a protection racket for the lucky few customers and employees that were involved.