At drinks with the Jetstar Boss
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Capt Sherm, Just a little bit of support. I find your argument well considered and I think you have a pretty good grip on it all. I am amazed by the outcry from the vast number that feel the "world' owes them. Good on you for your posts.
Bring on the whinges.
Bring on the whinges.
Nunc est bibendum
Ryanair drivers on $250,000 AUD. This is 100K pound sterling.....not a great income in the UK.
fearcampaign sounds a lot like aircraft. Way too obvious.
fearcampaign sounds a lot like aircraft. Way too obvious.
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"Upgrades are slow in Europe-2 years to a command"
Spoken like a true Generation Y!
Fearcampaign (and other like minded idiots) you have no idea what you are talking about. An intake pilot with no jet experience will simply not be ready for a command on a large jet within 2 years.
Fearcampaign= Aircraft. For sure!
Spoken like a true Generation Y!
Fearcampaign (and other like minded idiots) you have no idea what you are talking about. An intake pilot with no jet experience will simply not be ready for a command on a large jet within 2 years.
Fearcampaign= Aircraft. For sure!
Keg's 'tips'
Keg..............
Good call.............I'd say your perceptions are pretty well spot-on!
What's your tip for next year's winner of the Melbourne Cup?
fearcampaign sounds a lot like aircraft. Way too obvious.
What's your tip for next year's winner of the Melbourne Cup?
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LCCs use their own 'Low cost' mantra as an excuse to exploit. Being low cost should not equate to lower wages - thats simply exploitation! Should LCCs expect to pay less for the aircraft they purchase -NO. Should LCCs expect to pay less for fuel etc etc - NO NO NO.
As has been expressed here before: More jobs - SO WHAT!!!!!
Jetstar creating more jobs - as the pilot shortage in Australia is now acute, Jetstar start employing other nationalities (here come the South Africans) - GREAT! Have we sold our soul? How is this any sort of benefit to FO Aussie John Citizen? All so some yobbos can eat dim sims on Hamilton island, instead of steak in Mildura (or some other traditional family holiday destination that families once happily drove to.)
As a side issue here is an immediate example of the rot in this industry's management:
1. AJ says he needs cheaper and more flexible Flight Attendants - to compete with Tiger.
2. From what I understand - AJ drops new FAs base pay (already low by other standards) by 20%, makes them work a longer a week, removes about a weeks sick leave annually and removes any reference to minimum rest periods in their shinny new AWAs. (DTA allowance will bring the income up, but only if they work like hell, and even then would be unlikely to match the present pay)
3. AJ will no doubt happily accept a nice bonus/pay rise anytime soon.
4. Passengers save on average less than a dollar on each return flight.
5. The new FAs will realise within a year that they were better off and had a better life working at Maccas.
6. The same is happening/will happen right across the aviation industry.
7. (And the Libs are wondering why they are licking the puss out of their own wounds rather than enjoying the sweet bubbly stuff?!?)
QF/JQ management within the last few years have used the term "market rates" when referring to how much to pay their staff. Our market is now dictated by supply and demand - therefore, like it or not. IF:
Supply down
Demand up
Equals (eventually) better pay.
After all when the industry suffers its next inevitable downturn we will see American style furloughs!!!! Therefore we need to "make hay while the sun doth shine(ith)"!
SHERM: In summary what I am getting at is this.
IF LCCs did not exist (or if they paid an honest wage to their staff)-there would be slightly fewer jet jobs - those slightly fewer jobs mean that South Africans/South Americans/Indians etc will have to be happy with the jobs in their own country. Less flying jets means that companies ditch the less profitable routes and/or target demographic. Said demographic sticks with fishing on the Murray or staying at uncle Fred's holiday shack in Dullsville (They would have been just as happy). FO Aussie John Citizen goes to work happier (although sitting slightly more uncomfortably with a thicker wallet in his back pocket)! Management types will have to be happier with a 1 million dollar bonus instead of what the swindle off share holders presently.
PS. All you magagement types - Read some Charles Dickens over the summer. You guys fit the description of most of the bad characters in those stories (which were a true reflection of life in the early industrial revolution). Stop reiventing the wheel (especially one that broke).
HB.
As has been expressed here before: More jobs - SO WHAT!!!!!
Jetstar creating more jobs - as the pilot shortage in Australia is now acute, Jetstar start employing other nationalities (here come the South Africans) - GREAT! Have we sold our soul? How is this any sort of benefit to FO Aussie John Citizen? All so some yobbos can eat dim sims on Hamilton island, instead of steak in Mildura (or some other traditional family holiday destination that families once happily drove to.)
As a side issue here is an immediate example of the rot in this industry's management:
1. AJ says he needs cheaper and more flexible Flight Attendants - to compete with Tiger.
2. From what I understand - AJ drops new FAs base pay (already low by other standards) by 20%, makes them work a longer a week, removes about a weeks sick leave annually and removes any reference to minimum rest periods in their shinny new AWAs. (DTA allowance will bring the income up, but only if they work like hell, and even then would be unlikely to match the present pay)
3. AJ will no doubt happily accept a nice bonus/pay rise anytime soon.
4. Passengers save on average less than a dollar on each return flight.
5. The new FAs will realise within a year that they were better off and had a better life working at Maccas.
6. The same is happening/will happen right across the aviation industry.
7. (And the Libs are wondering why they are licking the puss out of their own wounds rather than enjoying the sweet bubbly stuff?!?)
QF/JQ management within the last few years have used the term "market rates" when referring to how much to pay their staff. Our market is now dictated by supply and demand - therefore, like it or not. IF:
Supply down
Demand up
Equals (eventually) better pay.
After all when the industry suffers its next inevitable downturn we will see American style furloughs!!!! Therefore we need to "make hay while the sun doth shine(ith)"!
SHERM: In summary what I am getting at is this.
IF LCCs did not exist (or if they paid an honest wage to their staff)-there would be slightly fewer jet jobs - those slightly fewer jobs mean that South Africans/South Americans/Indians etc will have to be happy with the jobs in their own country. Less flying jets means that companies ditch the less profitable routes and/or target demographic. Said demographic sticks with fishing on the Murray or staying at uncle Fred's holiday shack in Dullsville (They would have been just as happy). FO Aussie John Citizen goes to work happier (although sitting slightly more uncomfortably with a thicker wallet in his back pocket)! Management types will have to be happier with a 1 million dollar bonus instead of what the swindle off share holders presently.
PS. All you magagement types - Read some Charles Dickens over the summer. You guys fit the description of most of the bad characters in those stories (which were a true reflection of life in the early industrial revolution). Stop reiventing the wheel (especially one that broke).
HB.
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LCC is a mantra to makes us all think we'll loose our jobs if we don't take a pay cut.... WRONG.
As long as the CEO is making 7 figures I'll never believe that we need to cut costs.
As long as we all keep bending over, AJ will keep screwing us.
As long as the CEO is making 7 figures I'll never believe that we need to cut costs.
As long as we all keep bending over, AJ will keep screwing us.
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fearcampaign. Why don't you include your age on your detail column like you used to. Learn a few lessons from the rogering you got under the first pseudonym did we??
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Wiz
SWA has been profitable every year of its existence. This does not alter the fact that Jetblue et al will be putting pressure on Herb to squeeze more from SWAPA during contract negotiations. Change is inevitable even at SWA.
You suggest chapter 11 “artificially lowers pay and conditions” when in fact chapter 11 removes the artificial barriers that have protected staff from the market place and over inflated their worth to the business. UA and DL are prime examples. The barriers have been removed, the market has reduced pay and conditions to more reasonable levels, profitability has returned and yet there is no shortage of skilled crew to operate the aircraft.
Labor is an airlines biggest cost and represents about one quarter of an operating budget.
Howards Battler,
“Less flying jets means that companies ditch the less profitable routes and/or target demographic. Said demographic sticks with fishing on the Murray or staying at uncle Fred's holiday shack in Dullsville (They would have been just as happy). FO Aussie John Citizen goes to work happier (although sitting slightly more uncomfortably with a thicker wallet in his back pocket)!”
This little gem of a paragraph here does little more than highlight your total lack of understanding of capitalism.
SWA has been profitable every year of its existence. This does not alter the fact that Jetblue et al will be putting pressure on Herb to squeeze more from SWAPA during contract negotiations. Change is inevitable even at SWA.
You suggest chapter 11 “artificially lowers pay and conditions” when in fact chapter 11 removes the artificial barriers that have protected staff from the market place and over inflated their worth to the business. UA and DL are prime examples. The barriers have been removed, the market has reduced pay and conditions to more reasonable levels, profitability has returned and yet there is no shortage of skilled crew to operate the aircraft.
Labor is an airlines biggest cost and represents about one quarter of an operating budget.
Howards Battler,
“Less flying jets means that companies ditch the less profitable routes and/or target demographic. Said demographic sticks with fishing on the Murray or staying at uncle Fred's holiday shack in Dullsville (They would have been just as happy). FO Aussie John Citizen goes to work happier (although sitting slightly more uncomfortably with a thicker wallet in his back pocket)!”
This little gem of a paragraph here does little more than highlight your total lack of understanding of capitalism.
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The Prof and Capitalism
You live under the misconception that capitalism is economic nirvana.It is if you are perched way on top of the money tree.Capitalism fails those who do not have the EQ to participate effectively.They become part of a growing underclass that cannot paticipate fully in these crazy consumer societies we have created .
There are 6 Billion people on this planet and capitalism fails or does not exist for 80% of that population.
Capitalism is only successful if you are part of it but not if you are a victim of it
There are 6 Billion people on this planet and capitalism fails or does not exist for 80% of that population.
Capitalism is only successful if you are part of it but not if you are a victim of it
Last edited by surfside6; 2nd Dec 2007 at 04:08.
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The time I have spent in the UK It's common knowledge that you have to consider the pound in numerical terms as a dollar.
Otherwise you would not buy anything.On another thread they are talking about a pint going close to 4 quid.......
..Mind you it is English beer...
So that makes living in the UK on 100,K pounds the same roughly as living in Sydney on 100K Aust.
Not bad but I don't know if I would call it comfortable...depends what your definition of comfortable is I guess....
Otherwise you would not buy anything.On another thread they are talking about a pint going close to 4 quid.......
..Mind you it is English beer...So that makes living in the UK on 100,K pounds the same roughly as living in Sydney on 100K Aust.
Not bad but I don't know if I would call it comfortable...depends what your definition of comfortable is I guess....
Cant agree lowerlobe. Spent five years there and back with the rat waiting for the, (yeah maybe next year), upgrade to fo.
Was living in South London and on less than 100 but lifestyle vs earning and burning etc certainly on par if not above what I'm on now.
Needless to say better t&c than mainline, (but that's not for debate here.)but having gone nuts over the weather, it was the time to come back.
Was living in South London and on less than 100 but lifestyle vs earning and burning etc certainly on par if not above what I'm on now.
Needless to say better t&c than mainline, (but that's not for debate here.)but having gone nuts over the weather, it was the time to come back.
"We find ourselves in one of the largest periods of expansion in Australian aviation history and with this an acute pilot shortage. Economic fundamentals should dictate an increase in pay and conditions purely based on supply and demand."
Now I do not hold an economics degree, but IMHO that statement should be ringing louder than a bell in the ear of every Airline manager and HR department head. The REX chief of staff in a recent press release stated that the domestic airlines would require 1800 pilots over the next 2 years! If those numbers are to be relied upon, then the only course of action for these expanding carriers would be to recruit virtually every available ATPL holder in the country. How many would that be? 1000? 1500?
I don't believe the numbers add up. What the major carriers do to secure this labour will be interesting in the extreme. One thing is for certain, If they are not able to attract sufficient drivers for their planned expansions, then guess what........reduced or no expansion!
Will this be an acceptable option for the architects of these plans. Will GD, AJ, BG etc....simply say, Oh well, not enough pilots, cancel that $15 billion order! OR......, will they embark on a wholesale competition for the remaining suitable candidates?
If 1800 extra pilots are required over the next 2 years, they'd better get on with it!
Now I do not hold an economics degree, but IMHO that statement should be ringing louder than a bell in the ear of every Airline manager and HR department head. The REX chief of staff in a recent press release stated that the domestic airlines would require 1800 pilots over the next 2 years! If those numbers are to be relied upon, then the only course of action for these expanding carriers would be to recruit virtually every available ATPL holder in the country. How many would that be? 1000? 1500?
I don't believe the numbers add up. What the major carriers do to secure this labour will be interesting in the extreme. One thing is for certain, If they are not able to attract sufficient drivers for their planned expansions, then guess what........reduced or no expansion!
Will this be an acceptable option for the architects of these plans. Will GD, AJ, BG etc....simply say, Oh well, not enough pilots, cancel that $15 billion order! OR......, will they embark on a wholesale competition for the remaining suitable candidates?
If 1800 extra pilots are required over the next 2 years, they'd better get on with it!
Fuel costs vs Pilot costs
Excuse the figures as I read this story a couple of years ago, but the comparsion will be relative even if my figures are not exact.
The article stated that Southwest model recognised that fuel cost were "19%" of their cost while pilot wages were 3%. They decided that if they got the best pilots via paying them the best wages then the 3% cost that controls the 19% fuel bill would be a good investment.
SO... The 3% goes to 4% via attracting good pilots that fly efficently yet safely and the 19% went to 17% so win win.
Few years on I imagine fuel is a lot more % and pilot wages a little less.
OG
PS - Guy talking about no LCC fuel, airport fees etc is on the money.
PPS- Shermin, you have some really good points but at the end of the day it comes down to supply and demand. Airlines take advantage of this scenario when pilot supply is up so pilots would have poor 'business accumen' if they were not to act upon this situation when demand is up.
The article stated that Southwest model recognised that fuel cost were "19%" of their cost while pilot wages were 3%. They decided that if they got the best pilots via paying them the best wages then the 3% cost that controls the 19% fuel bill would be a good investment.
SO... The 3% goes to 4% via attracting good pilots that fly efficently yet safely and the 19% went to 17% so win win.
Few years on I imagine fuel is a lot more % and pilot wages a little less.
OG
PS - Guy talking about no LCC fuel, airport fees etc is on the money.
PPS- Shermin, you have some really good points but at the end of the day it comes down to supply and demand. Airlines take advantage of this scenario when pilot supply is up so pilots would have poor 'business accumen' if they were not to act upon this situation when demand is up.
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On Guard,
Excellent post.
It frustrates me that pilots feel they need to justify fair pay and conditions.
If the business environment in aviation were to be in trouble as in 2001 then it is different case.
By Geoff Dixon's own admission we are not in this situation and neither is it forecast.We have made and are forecast to make profits of 1 billion plus for the next few years.Take a look at GD's and AJ's pay increases over the years as a perfect example.
We need to be careful not to be suckered in by corporate spin.The sky is not falling in and there is a pilot shortage.
The mining industry is expanding and is also short of skilled labour.The result of this shortage is higher pay and conditions.Not just for executives but also for the workers.Supply and demand.
Pilots can achieve the same if we are correctly represented.The Airlines use professional companies to negotiate pay and conditions.Perhaps we should all do the same.JPC, AFAP and AIPA take note.
It makes no difference if we fly for JQ, DJ, Eastern, Sunnies, NJS or QF.We have all invested much time and money into our skilled profession.We are all highly trained professionals and deserve to be treated as such.
It would be a crying shame if we could not better our terms and conditions in a time of unprecedented expansion.Time to grasp the opportunity fellas.
Solidarity, smart negotiation and good old fashioned bottle are required if we are all to take advantage of the "gimme" that has just been delivered to us in the current environment.It will be a long time coming before the next golden opportunity.
CARPE DIEM......................
Excellent post.
It frustrates me that pilots feel they need to justify fair pay and conditions.
If the business environment in aviation were to be in trouble as in 2001 then it is different case.
By Geoff Dixon's own admission we are not in this situation and neither is it forecast.We have made and are forecast to make profits of 1 billion plus for the next few years.Take a look at GD's and AJ's pay increases over the years as a perfect example.
We need to be careful not to be suckered in by corporate spin.The sky is not falling in and there is a pilot shortage.
The mining industry is expanding and is also short of skilled labour.The result of this shortage is higher pay and conditions.Not just for executives but also for the workers.Supply and demand.
Pilots can achieve the same if we are correctly represented.The Airlines use professional companies to negotiate pay and conditions.Perhaps we should all do the same.JPC, AFAP and AIPA take note.
It makes no difference if we fly for JQ, DJ, Eastern, Sunnies, NJS or QF.We have all invested much time and money into our skilled profession.We are all highly trained professionals and deserve to be treated as such.
It would be a crying shame if we could not better our terms and conditions in a time of unprecedented expansion.Time to grasp the opportunity fellas.
Solidarity, smart negotiation and good old fashioned bottle are required if we are all to take advantage of the "gimme" that has just been delivered to us in the current environment.It will be a long time coming before the next golden opportunity.
CARPE DIEM......................
The overseas Australian guys will get about 12 months to decide on a job back home on an AWA (salary above 75K) , after that the flood gates will open to overseas pilots willing to convert and live in Australia.
Their will never be a shortage , there is only a chance to go home , thats all it is.
Sorry to burst your bubble.............
Their will never be a shortage , there is only a chance to go home , thats all it is.
Sorry to burst your bubble.............
Rambo, the overseas pilots (ie those without an Oz ATPL) will have to sit the ATPL subjects and undergo an Instrument Rating test - not impossible but the task will deter some.
There is a worldwide pilot shortage but the desirability of living in Oz may mean that Australia will be one of the last countries to feel the severity of the shortage.
There is a worldwide pilot shortage but the desirability of living in Oz may mean that Australia will be one of the last countries to feel the severity of the shortage.