REX advertising O/S

[haughtney1]

Here here Remoak.......I'm starting to think people can't see the wood for the bloody tree's

[remoak]

No, they live in their own private little universe over there. It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

I particularly like the "REX won't give me what I want, therefore REX is going to fail" logic. Priceless.

[Murray Cod]

sick'em REX

Yep,
I know quite a few in the same boat as you.
I can't work out what these employers are thinking. Sounds like a GA operation. Maybe your application form has fallen behind the beer fridge at REX headquarters or got lost in the back of the chief pilots 1974 toyota crown.
MC

[Jet_A_Knight]

Take ya hand off it, Remoak.

It's a world market now

You are WRONG. Employment is a protected market. Unless there is a skill-set shortage allowing immigration of people with the required skill set. Not so in this case in Australia.

Ryanair and Easyjet figured this one out years ago, which is why they have so many Eastern Europeans in their ranks now.

I would hazard a guess that these Eastern Europeans are citizens of E.U states, and have the appropriate right of work & abode in the E.U.

smug Aussie wannabes who think it is their birthright to waltz into a highly-paid commuter job are in for a shock.

It IS a BIRTHRIGHT. It's the same around the world. Citizens are given first shot at local employment -everywhere - PERIOD.

Go try and get a job at Fedex without U.S Citizenship or 5 years residency - see if they think that aviation employment is a global market.

The reality - that you and a couple of other posters don't get - is that no nation is obligated to open its labour market to foreigners. Unless they have to. I doubt you have your job wherever it is on the basis of a foreign passport and no residency or employment right - otherwise the government of wherever-the-fukc-you are would have you deported.

My final quote, from our hallowed Prime Minister, The Hon. John W. Howard:

We will decide who comes to this country, and the circumstances under which they come.

The same song is sung around the world in many different languages.

[Icarus2001]

One thing is for sure, most Aussie pilots wildly over-value their worth. Most are still thinking in pre-89 terms.

The one major flaw in your logic is that pilot salaries WENT UP after 1989, by a significant amount.
VB commenced the pay for endorsement, low salary jet scale slide in Australia as a confidence trick by JR who used his mates from O/S to get the company "off the ground". Now, even they have had to meet the market with new FO's starting on $93,000 and Captains up around $180,000. The issue with Rex, M@c@ir, Skippers, NJS etc is that they have not realised that unless they become attractive they will be parking aircraft. That is the reality. I always come back to the mining sector, do you think they want to pay people $120,000 pa to drive a truck or even $70,000 to wash the dishes? No, they know they have to or the labour will move to a more attractive area. Traditionally flying has been seen as a sexy career and so less inducement has been required, we have now found the bottom and guess what people do not want to be pilots anymore...http://casa.gov.au/fcl/fcl_req.htm
2008 Year of the Australian Pilot

[The Kavorka]

Interesting to see that the number of ATPL holders has not increased in 5 years.

I bet there are a lot of baby boomers ready to retire. The sh#t will hit the fan then!!

[remoak]

You are WRONG. Employment is a protected market. Unless there is a skill-set shortage allowing immigration of people with the required skill set. Not so in this case in Australia.

Really? Tell me, who owns most of Darwin and large parts of the Gold Coast? I'll give you a hint: it isn't Australians. And who do they employ? Not Australians... More to the point, in aviation, it is relatively common for nationals from one country to find employment in another country to fulfill a need. Examples would include the American Mesaba pilots currently working in Ireland on US licences (Ireland being an EU country), and the Canadians that used to work in the UK under the Air 2000/Air 3000 arrangement. It can easily happen in Australia too, because if half the posters here are correct, several desperate commuter airlines will have no difficulty showing that they cannot find any qualified pilots at the salary levels on offer. The economic case is a valid consideration. I'm sure the '89ers thought their jobs were protected too... turns out the service they once provided was more important than their continued employment, and the government acted accordingly. Complete the following sentence: Those who do not learn from their mistakes are doomed to......

I would hazard a guess that these Eastern Europeans are citizens of E.U states, and have the appropriate right of work & abode in the E.U.

...and you would be wrong. The countries concerned only joined the EU in the last year or so, but their nationals have been flying for Ryanair in particular, for a lot longer than that (over six years to my certain knowledge).

It IS a BIRTHRIGHT. It's the same around the world. Citizens are given first shot at local employment -everywhere - PERIOD.

If you really believe that, you need to actually visit the rest of the world, because your are clearly completely out of touch with how international employment works.

is that no nation is obligated to open its labour market to foreigners. Unless they have to.

Nobody is saying that they are... of course your statement is an oxymoron, as if they have to, they are clearly obligated.

We will decide who comes to this country, and the circumstances under which they come.

Of course. That is exactly what happened in 89.

Your error is in assuming that the Howard government would not open the doors to foreign pilots if the need arose, because he has clearly stated that he reserves the right to do so. Your quote cuts both ways. I have no doubt whatsoever that foreign pilots would be invited into Oz if the regionals could not recruit the people they wanted, in the same way that Australia actively recruits overseas for many other professional occupations - doctors, nurses, etc. They end up with residency (if they want it), and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it - that is the way international employment really works.

I doubt you have your job wherever it is on the basis of a foreign passport and no residency or employment right - otherwise the government of wherever-the-fukc-you are would have you deported.

My last three contracts have been in countries that I had no right to live or work in, other than the rights conferred by the country in order to attract people with the requisite skills. They don't deport people they need, in the same way that Oz doesn't deport all the foreign doctors it recruits. Once again, I go back to the American Mesaba drivers working in Ireland with no residency, no citizenship, and without a JAA licence. Think it can't happen in Oz? John Howard just told you that it can!

So you are wrong on that one, too.

[slice]

remoak - Who does own most of Darwin then (and what exactly do you mean by Darwin)?? Having lived there for a fair few years it seemed to be more ocker than any of the big Capitals, what with the local Squatocracy and all.



I don't think Rex will really ever have it together enough to get through the lengthy and involved (not to mention costly) process of sponsoring flight crew through the immigration process. It could be done but given the resources planning and forethought required, I don't see Rex doing it in any great numbers given their demonstrated general inability to organize a root in a brothel.

I think Rex were just going on a fishing exercise.

[ACMS]

remoak.................I live in the real world and I can assure you without a shadow of a doubt that the ONLY REASON COUNTRIES EMPLOY FOREIGN PILOTS IS THEY HAVEN'T GOT ENOUGH OF THEIR OWN
SUPPLY AND DEMAND
I'd guess by your location that you've done pretty well off the Australian tax payers back.
"Pilot jobs in Australia for Australians".

We will decide who comes to this country, and the circumstances under which they come.
amen brother

[boofta]

Remoak
Thanks for dismantling my arguments. Perhaps when you find a real
command in aviation, on real pay, for the quarter of a century that
I have. You might see the stupidity of both your argument and assumptions.
As a pilot you should rejoice, that finally we are getting some bargaining
power again. Its been 18 years since any talk of pay rises and
shortages have been so apparent.
I lament for those that follow, including you, so why shoot yourself
in the foot. If your lucky, things will lift enough to recover our great
industry. Where those that produce the profits again benefit fully.
Its not wishful wannabee dreaming, its reality. There are manning
problems worldwide, even you might make some decent money before
you finish.
Its not about being owed a better deal, it's about not getting screwed
by rapacious airline managers. Are you one?

[remoak]

ACMS

I live in the real world and I can assure you without a shadow of a doubt that the ONLY REASON COUNTRIES EMPLOY FOREIGN PILOTS IS THEY HAVEN'T GOT ENOUGH OF THEIR OWN

That is such a ridiculously blinkered statement that I really don't know where to start... but suffice it to say that Ireland has plenty of their own pilots, but have allowed Americans in for purely financial reasons... the UK have, on several occasions, imported foreign pilots - a particular example would be British Midland, who brought a bunch of Aussies over a few years ago, on CAA validations and temporary work permits... despite the large numbers of Brit wannabes... the list goes on.

I'd guess by your location that you've done pretty well off the Australian tax payers back.

Wrong. Never worked in Oz. All northern hemisphere stuff.

We will decide who comes to this country, and the circumstances under which they come

Your GOVERNMENT will decide, as they did in '89. Do you trust them?

boofta

Perhaps when you find a real
command in aviation, on real pay, for the quarter of a century that
I have.

Awww... sticks and stones. I suspect that my pay is somewhat higher than yours if you are a typical oz long-hauler, and I have you beat by two years on the command front.

that finally we are getting some bargaining
power again

Hmmm... remind me again why that is? Nothing to do with tub-thumping unions and greedy pilots, was it?

things will lift enough to recover our great
industry.

That's the problem with the older generation of Oz pilots, particularly the ones that made bad choices in 89. You simply cannot see or accept that the industry is fundamentally different now. You cannot turn the clock back, no matter how badly you might want your once-lofty status back. The industry today is about cost reduction and efficiency, and neither of those two goals are compatible with the dinosaurs of old. Pilots no longer enjoy the privilege and respect that they once did, even in the isolated backwater that is Australian aviation. It isn't "great" any more.

Airline manager? Nah. Just a pilot with some additional responsibilities. Happily reaping the benefits of a shortage of drivers on my particular type.

Supply and demand, you see...

[jarjar]

remoak mate
youv'e just discredited everything that you have posted about the Australian industry, if you havnt worked here, p*ss off to another forum, you have no idea about the current state of the industry.

As my pappy used to say "It is better to be thought a fool, then to open ones mouth and remove all doubt"... you remoak are a fool

JarJar

[ACMS]

So we are now using the Irish as an example of "worlds best practice"

oh brother


Your handle says "south pacific" you probably come from some despot regime in the area that relies on handouts from the Australian tax payers.

Bob Hawke is a totally different animal to John Howard.

[haughtney1]

Why oh why do some on here resort to personal attack, rather than face the reality of the situation?
ACMS...a bit of the pot calling the kettle black with this comment

Your handle says "south pacific" you probably come from some despot regime in the area that relies on handouts from the Australian tax payers.

Your handle says Fragrant harbor...and last time I was there it wasn't particularly Fragrant, nor was it particularly pleasant...just ask a few of the ethnic Koreans...

As my pappy used to say "It is better to be thought a fool, then to open ones mouth and remove all doubt"... you remoak are a fool

Yet again a personal attack...not very constructive Jarjar, but then when has that ever stopped you posting rubbish in the past?
As for industry knowledge...the Oz industry is FAR from unique, yes it has its own idiosyncrasies, but fundamentally it is virtually identical to the industry as a whole.
The real problem that the naysayers on here appear unwilling to accept is that despite you venting your spleen, the name calling, the bluster, and the moronic blinkered personal attacks.....Rex will continue to search for suitable employees overseas, because it suits them to do so.
If the views of ACMS and Jarjar are respresentative......then I'd be doing the same thing.
And yes I've worked in the industry in Oz

[jarjar]

Personel attack hey, so your saying in 1200 odd posts, youve never said anything slightly negative about another poster. The australian industry has changed significantly over the last 12-18 months, if your not working here, then you should keep your mouth shut.
As far as posting rubbish, mate some of your posts are the most unintelligent dribble on these forums.
lots of love

JarJar

[haughtney1]

Personel attack hey, so your saying in 1200 odd posts, you've never said anything slightly negative about another poster.

No, I've never said or even insinuated that I am JUST as guilty of that as many others are on here.

The Australian industry has changed significantly over the last 12-18 months, if your not working here, then you should keep your mouth shut.

Two things spring to mind here, the first is, YES it has changed...in fact it has been evolving and re-inventing itself ever since Reg's Mob, and Impulse went south...but then, thats just like the rest of the world, so no surprise there.
Point two...so you are saying those that are outside the issue have no right to comment? if so please give me one compelling reason why?
Newsflash Jarjar, the Oz aviation industry is a small and quite insular sector, it is however not very different to everywhere else.....
Maybe you could explain your position a little more clearly, rather than just throw your verbal weight around?

[remoak]

jarjar

if you havnt worked here, p*ss off to another forum

Since when was D & G solely owned by Aussie pilots? Are there any other countries that might be described as either Dunnunda or Godzone? And you call me a fool. Idiot.

As it happens, I do hold an aussie professional licence as well as one from the other country that you are apparently not aware of.

You don't have to work in a particular country to recognise stupidity when you see it.

ACMS

you probably come from some despot regime in the area that relies on handouts from the Australian tax payers.

No, I come from the despot regime that regularly thrashes you at rugby...

BTW Ireland is now the richest nation in the EU and miles ahead of Australia when it comes to industrial relations.

You two epitomise the two outstanding D&G aussie qualities:

1) play the man, not the ball whenever possible
2) When you cannot come up with a reasoned response to an argument, do (1)

Now if you have any actual sensible thoughts to contribute... otherwise, do the thingsyou suggested i do

[CBS]

As my pappy used to say "It is better to be thought a fool, then to open ones mouth and remove all doubt"...

Hey jarjar I think you should take some of your pappys advise!! You have made some ridiulous posts.

[Aquaplaner]

Skilled Migration to Australia

The Employer Nomination Scheme allows Australian employers to sponsor employees in an eligible occupation, who are foreign nationals, for a permanent visa to work in Australia.
An eligible position must meet the following requirements:
- be full-time
- be permanent and ongoing
- meet all relevant Australian award requirements
- be a highly skilled occupation that is on the Employer Nomination Scheme Occupation List (ENSOL)
Pilots are included on the Employer Nomination Scheme Occupation List.
For those that are interested more detailed information is available on the Department of Immigration Website.

[KRUSTY 34]

"Pilots are included on the Employer Nomination Scheme Occupation List."

Well, that may change due to the events of the last few weeks! At the very least you can expect severe restrictions for applicants originating from the Middle East and/or the Sub-Continent.

haughtney 1,

REX aren't searching for applicants overseas because it suits them, they have simply run out of other ideas. Not that they had that many ideas to start with.

As far as any real strategy to deal with this crisis, the only thing REX and in that case most other employers in OZ have ever done is to go to the next resume on the pile.

Oh oh!! the pile is almost empty. Some "Rocket Scientist" decided to look overseas for whoever may be dumb enough to come to Sydney and work for 45K a year. Meanwhile the absolute cream of experienced crew are inexorably bleeding away to other operators who are saying, "thankyou very much".

Rex are simply clutching at straws!