AIPA to represent ALL Qantas Group Pilots
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ignorance
ITCZ,
you're comments relating to why Eastern pilots didn't get backpay or 400's shows your considerable lack of knowledge on this subject.
The "hair brain" scheme was bourne out of frustration with a union (AFAP) that, in the opinion of many, has underperformed for years.
Ironically the industrial staff at the AFAP always say "the Federation is the pilots", yet the industrial staff refuses to take direction from the pilots paying their wages.
The EBA was voted down for the same reassons the VB one was: because it was a bad deal.
The 400 wasn't even on the AOC till 2007, so it wasn't coming anytime soon around 2005 when the EBA was voted on.
All this decision is about is choice. For too long the Federation have enjoyed a monopoly, and with the protection of that monopoly they have treated their membership with contempt. Eventually enough EAA guys decided to seek an alternative.
If the AFAP had spent half the time, money and effort helping Eastern pilots as they have fighting this case no-one would have wanted to leave the AFAP in the first place, because they would have been effectively representing their members.
It's funny that the AFAP President has already written they expected to lose this case. If that was so, why spend all the members' money fighting it? Surely they should have been concentrating on providing a better service than AIPA. If they did this they might retain their membership.
You don't see Mcdonalds suing Hungry Jacks for making hamburgers, they just try and make a better burger. In the end you get the choice of where to eat.
you're comments relating to why Eastern pilots didn't get backpay or 400's shows your considerable lack of knowledge on this subject.
The "hair brain" scheme was bourne out of frustration with a union (AFAP) that, in the opinion of many, has underperformed for years.
Ironically the industrial staff at the AFAP always say "the Federation is the pilots", yet the industrial staff refuses to take direction from the pilots paying their wages.
The EBA was voted down for the same reassons the VB one was: because it was a bad deal.
The 400 wasn't even on the AOC till 2007, so it wasn't coming anytime soon around 2005 when the EBA was voted on.
All this decision is about is choice. For too long the Federation have enjoyed a monopoly, and with the protection of that monopoly they have treated their membership with contempt. Eventually enough EAA guys decided to seek an alternative.
If the AFAP had spent half the time, money and effort helping Eastern pilots as they have fighting this case no-one would have wanted to leave the AFAP in the first place, because they would have been effectively representing their members.
It's funny that the AFAP President has already written they expected to lose this case. If that was so, why spend all the members' money fighting it? Surely they should have been concentrating on providing a better service than AIPA. If they did this they might retain their membership.
You don't see Mcdonalds suing Hungry Jacks for making hamburgers, they just try and make a better burger. In the end you get the choice of where to eat.
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El Kabong,
I understand your caution, however I've never found anything other than dedication amongst the AIPA committee people .. even if I disagreed with them or found them outright dunces.
The point?
My observation is that AIPA does not have an agenda to rule the world. They just want to do the right thing.
Yeah, pillory me for being innocent, however I have known some of the people in AIPA for ... ooh ... mayday ... 30 years? ... They are decent people.
Take it for what you will ....
N
I understand your caution, however I've never found anything other than dedication amongst the AIPA committee people .. even if I disagreed with them or found them outright dunces.
The point?
My observation is that AIPA does not have an agenda to rule the world. They just want to do the right thing.
Yeah, pillory me for being innocent, however I have known some of the people in AIPA for ... ooh ... mayday ... 30 years? ... They are decent people.
Take it for what you will ....
N
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ITCZ,
you're comments relating to why Eastern pilots didn't get backpay or 400's shows your considerable lack of knowledge on this subject.
you're comments relating to why Eastern pilots didn't get backpay or 400's shows your considerable lack of knowledge on this subject.
Hey wayne king your version of events at Eastern is simply wrong,you should go back and have the story read to you again but this time get your helper to read fact not fiction.Your analogy further proves you clearly know little about the subjects you are commenting on.
So Don, what is the correct version of events? I would be interested to know as it seems AIPA might be having an effect (indirectly at least) on what the future holds for the Qlink group.
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hay bondslipper, are you talking Income Protection, or Loss of Licence cover.
If you are talking income protection I think you will find that the premium versus the amount of cover available is way out of proportion (that is way to dear)
your link for the website does not take you anywhere except to an error page.
If you are talking loss of licence then the Qantas loss of licence is not available to additional pilots, that is pilots outside of mainline/international.
If you are talking income protection I think you will find that the premium versus the amount of cover available is way out of proportion (that is way to dear)
your link for the website does not take you anywhere except to an error page.
If you are talking loss of licence then the Qantas loss of licence is not available to additional pilots, that is pilots outside of mainline/international.
Chaps....we need and can re-invent ourselves NOW.
Yes, it's a fact that the Scabs in '89 started the rot, yes it's true that VB and then J* pilots undermined wages in a big way and yes it's true QF pilots were incredibly arrogant turning away the J* group etc (and still maybe are by fighting other bodies to get the right to represent certain pilots).
It's all true but it's old news. Bickering about it is futile, energy-sapping and stupid. Yes learn from it but GO FORWARD.
Now is the time to strike.
We need a corporate rebranding and restructuring. We need the AAPP: Australian Association of Professional Pilots. Or some similar name.
This parent body would combine the assest and members of the existing pilot representative bodies in this country. It would have an International, Domestic, Regional and GA division (initially just transfer AIPA, AFAP, J*PG over lock stock and barrel). But it would have a President/CEO, VP, Secretary, Treasurer etc all elected by the members and bound by the constitution to protect the rights of all Australian Pofessional Pilots.
Sure, let those internal bodies bicker amongst themselves about who has the biggest willy, who is a better pilot etc but let that be done in-house, away from the gleeful watch of the vulturous Olmeadows of this world. At least then we present a united face, represented by ONE Association working for the betterment of all pilots.
This way you have the ability for many smart heads to bang together to determine smart, 21st-Century ways of applying industrial pressure on recalcitrant employers and bypassing and outsmarting current workplace legislation.
And you do this as a cohesive and (at least outwardly) united body and don't publically waste energy fighting your fellow professional aviator about who did what to whom etc.
NOW is the first opportunity in 20 years we have had to do this.
Go for it.
Yes, it's a fact that the Scabs in '89 started the rot, yes it's true that VB and then J* pilots undermined wages in a big way and yes it's true QF pilots were incredibly arrogant turning away the J* group etc (and still maybe are by fighting other bodies to get the right to represent certain pilots).
It's all true but it's old news. Bickering about it is futile, energy-sapping and stupid. Yes learn from it but GO FORWARD.
Now is the time to strike.
We need a corporate rebranding and restructuring. We need the AAPP: Australian Association of Professional Pilots. Or some similar name.
This parent body would combine the assest and members of the existing pilot representative bodies in this country. It would have an International, Domestic, Regional and GA division (initially just transfer AIPA, AFAP, J*PG over lock stock and barrel). But it would have a President/CEO, VP, Secretary, Treasurer etc all elected by the members and bound by the constitution to protect the rights of all Australian Pofessional Pilots.
Sure, let those internal bodies bicker amongst themselves about who has the biggest willy, who is a better pilot etc but let that be done in-house, away from the gleeful watch of the vulturous Olmeadows of this world. At least then we present a united face, represented by ONE Association working for the betterment of all pilots.
This way you have the ability for many smart heads to bang together to determine smart, 21st-Century ways of applying industrial pressure on recalcitrant employers and bypassing and outsmarting current workplace legislation.
And you do this as a cohesive and (at least outwardly) united body and don't publically waste energy fighting your fellow professional aviator about who did what to whom etc.
NOW is the first opportunity in 20 years we have had to do this.
Go for it.
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Attention All Oz Pilots
Divided We Fall
Dedicated to All Qantas, Jetstar, Virgin Blue, and Aspiring Australian Pilots.
Up north I gave my pound of flesh and stayed alive
But now I’m told it’s a glorified Bus I drive
So how come you need a thousand or two for a ticket
Surely I deserve a fair wicket!
Well I’ve always done my very best
With the heart of a kangaroo beating in my chest
I am proud to wear their tin upon my breast
But my loyalty they are beginning to test!
Brush your teeth and put your tie on straight
Done the hat and don’t be late
Make sure you polish your shoes
Or points with the auditor you’ll lose
Say G’day and be polite
“May I have the decent tonight?”
Yes they say being a second officer
Is a little like being a kind of a tosser
I can take the pole in my hand
But you can guarantee… I’ll never land
“Get out of the seat, you’ve had your fun”
“You’ll get your turn one day son!”
But if you want a promotion, go to Jetstar
Guess it beats sitting in the back by far
If you go you’re in for a treat
The shaftings start when you pay for your seat
You’ll be a Captain in just three years
But you wont be able to afford a round of beers
Now look out you’ve been gazumped!
AWA’s and your quick commands were bumped
You see, all the pilots from afar
Wouldn’t come fly for Jetstar
The FO slots at JQ
Only paid enough to draw but a few
A____ J_____... What a dunce
But Jetstar boys think we’re the $#%@’s
Why do pilots cut each others throat
We’re all going to sink in the same boat
AWA’s for new hires at Qantas so they say
Might as well go back to GA
They asked us for another pay freeze
Cos Qantas was headed for ruff seas
The price of oil was so high
There was no way they could tell a lie
So make sure the fuel order isn’t fat
And treat all your staff like a piece of crap
Management told us we’d been bad boys
The 787 wouldn’t be our new toys
We’re “too inefficient” so they said
And dreams of promotion were put to bed
Just when I thought things couldn’t be grimmer
The Chief Pilot invited us all for dinner
“Trust him!”… What were they thinking
And politely I declined without even blinking
AH! But what’s all this?
Did I just see G___ and M__g Kiss?
Record Profits and APA offers
Management….. Fill your coffers
The APA bid sat on a wall
The APA bid did take a great fall
And all of G____’s forces and all G____’s men
Couldn’t put the deal back together again
The shareholders wanted more loot
And M_______ J_______ got the boot!
So much for the ruff seas… What a farce!
Is that sun I see shining from G____’s #%#@
G_____’s a hero or so the papers say
That fella came out on top at the end of the day
But with all the cost cutting moral is low
And now its time to reap the seed you sow
Customers say they think we’re the worst
But never mind cos Pete says we’re first
The bottom line was all they were thinking
And now all our ratings have gone sinking
So G_____ be nibble G_____ be quick
You’re making our Red Kangaroo Sick
Our customers are telling us they want service
And your decisions are making me nervous
Its time to realise your staff are Qantas
So quit telling us that you don’t want us
From Aerolingus came the leprecorn
And Jetstar crew were used as a pawn
Jetstar crew come aboard and don’t despair
Together we can make sure you’re paid fair
I extend the olive branch to thee
United solidarity is the key
So next time you see A___ coming up from behind
Let him know you’re really not that kind
“Put that back in your shorts thanks!”
“And how about some money for our ranks?”
Come on Shorthaul its time to get up
EBA8…. vote “Nup!”
They tried to make you sign a dud
Bring it down with a resounding thud
Long hauls turn is coming soon
And we should sing a similar tune
“I’ve got your back mate!”
So stand up for all our sake
Senior blokes don’t forget to stick up for us
Now that you’re secure on the retirement bus
Our fore fathers ensured your future when you made a start
And you have reaped the rewards now you’re an old fart
I am proud of our brothers at Virgin Blue
Sticking their EBA offer down the loo
The pilot shortage is bound to strike
So pass this around if you like
For fear of punishment I wont publish my name
But please do consider our plight all the same
Please don’t say “I’m right Jack”
You never know when you’ll get the sack
Now my tirade is all finished and done
So have a think, but don’t lose the fun
Don’t let the bad blood run too deep
For our Careers we must fight together to keep
Dedicated to All Qantas, Jetstar, Virgin Blue, and Aspiring Australian Pilots.
Up north I gave my pound of flesh and stayed alive
But now I’m told it’s a glorified Bus I drive
So how come you need a thousand or two for a ticket
Surely I deserve a fair wicket!
Well I’ve always done my very best
With the heart of a kangaroo beating in my chest
I am proud to wear their tin upon my breast
But my loyalty they are beginning to test!
Brush your teeth and put your tie on straight
Done the hat and don’t be late
Make sure you polish your shoes
Or points with the auditor you’ll lose
Say G’day and be polite
“May I have the decent tonight?”
Yes they say being a second officer
Is a little like being a kind of a tosser
I can take the pole in my hand
But you can guarantee… I’ll never land
“Get out of the seat, you’ve had your fun”
“You’ll get your turn one day son!”
But if you want a promotion, go to Jetstar
Guess it beats sitting in the back by far
If you go you’re in for a treat
The shaftings start when you pay for your seat
You’ll be a Captain in just three years
But you wont be able to afford a round of beers
Now look out you’ve been gazumped!
AWA’s and your quick commands were bumped
You see, all the pilots from afar
Wouldn’t come fly for Jetstar
The FO slots at JQ
Only paid enough to draw but a few
A____ J_____... What a dunce
But Jetstar boys think we’re the $#%@’s
Why do pilots cut each others throat
We’re all going to sink in the same boat
AWA’s for new hires at Qantas so they say
Might as well go back to GA
They asked us for another pay freeze
Cos Qantas was headed for ruff seas
The price of oil was so high
There was no way they could tell a lie
So make sure the fuel order isn’t fat
And treat all your staff like a piece of crap
Management told us we’d been bad boys
The 787 wouldn’t be our new toys
We’re “too inefficient” so they said
And dreams of promotion were put to bed
Just when I thought things couldn’t be grimmer
The Chief Pilot invited us all for dinner
“Trust him!”… What were they thinking
And politely I declined without even blinking
AH! But what’s all this?
Did I just see G___ and M__g Kiss?
Record Profits and APA offers
Management….. Fill your coffers
The APA bid sat on a wall
The APA bid did take a great fall
And all of G____’s forces and all G____’s men
Couldn’t put the deal back together again
The shareholders wanted more loot
And M_______ J_______ got the boot!
So much for the ruff seas… What a farce!
Is that sun I see shining from G____’s #%#@
G_____’s a hero or so the papers say
That fella came out on top at the end of the day
But with all the cost cutting moral is low
And now its time to reap the seed you sow
Customers say they think we’re the worst
But never mind cos Pete says we’re first
The bottom line was all they were thinking
And now all our ratings have gone sinking
So G_____ be nibble G_____ be quick
You’re making our Red Kangaroo Sick
Our customers are telling us they want service
And your decisions are making me nervous
Its time to realise your staff are Qantas
So quit telling us that you don’t want us
From Aerolingus came the leprecorn
And Jetstar crew were used as a pawn
Jetstar crew come aboard and don’t despair
Together we can make sure you’re paid fair
I extend the olive branch to thee
United solidarity is the key
So next time you see A___ coming up from behind
Let him know you’re really not that kind
“Put that back in your shorts thanks!”
“And how about some money for our ranks?”
Come on Shorthaul its time to get up
EBA8…. vote “Nup!”
They tried to make you sign a dud
Bring it down with a resounding thud
Long hauls turn is coming soon
And we should sing a similar tune
“I’ve got your back mate!”
So stand up for all our sake
Senior blokes don’t forget to stick up for us
Now that you’re secure on the retirement bus
Our fore fathers ensured your future when you made a start
And you have reaped the rewards now you’re an old fart
I am proud of our brothers at Virgin Blue
Sticking their EBA offer down the loo
The pilot shortage is bound to strike
So pass this around if you like
For fear of punishment I wont publish my name
But please do consider our plight all the same
Please don’t say “I’m right Jack”
You never know when you’ll get the sack
Now my tirade is all finished and done
So have a think, but don’t lose the fun
Don’t let the bad blood run too deep
For our Careers we must fight together to keep
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Invitation to all Qantas Subsidiary Pilots
Many Qantas Group pilots have heard that the AIPA was awarded constitutional coverage of all Australian based Qantas Group pilots by Senior Deputy President (SDP) Kaufman of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission (AIRC) in Melbourne on May 23rd 2007.
They may not yet be aware that yesterday, both the AFAP and Qantas filed an Appeal to the AIRC Full Bench seeking to have SDP Kaufman’s decision overturned.
Nonetheless AIPA is entitled to rely on the decision of Senior Deputy President Kaufman and given that supporting legal opinion from now Justice Stephen Rothman AM also supports AIPA’s ability to enrol QantasLink & Jetstar members, AIPA believes that the there is little chance that Kaufman’s decision will be overturned.
To assist Qantas Jetstar and QantasLink pilots better understand the reasoning behind:
Kaufman’s coverage decision,
How AIPA is reorganising to accommodate Qantas Jetstar and Qantaslink Members, and
What AIPA’s Professional Standards Campaign is expected to mean for all Qantas Group Pilots.
I hereby extend to all Qantas Group subsidiary pilots an invitation to attend an Information Session at the AIPA office at Suite 601, Level 6, 243-249 Coward Street, Mascot at 11:00am on Friday 22 June, 2007. Speaking at the meeting will be myself and Peter Sommerville (AIPA’s General Manager)
After a short presentation covering the above, Peter and I and members of the AIPA Committee of Management will be happy to take questions from all present on any AIPA related issues, including but not limited to:
AIPA's proposed Rules change,
Common conditions for all Qantas Group Pilots,
More opportunities for career progression, and
An economic stake for pilots in the industry.
To assist with the provision of a light lunch after the meeting, those planning to attend are requested to notify Ms Kim Elliott at AIPA office on 02 8273-7777 or email her at: [email protected]
Please rest assured that the above event is not a “political rally” and I welcome the participation and presence of all AFAP and Qantas Company Council pilots. At the heart of my endeavours is my genuine desire to see AIPA do what it can to help unify Australian flight crew representation ASAP.
They may not yet be aware that yesterday, both the AFAP and Qantas filed an Appeal to the AIRC Full Bench seeking to have SDP Kaufman’s decision overturned.
Nonetheless AIPA is entitled to rely on the decision of Senior Deputy President Kaufman and given that supporting legal opinion from now Justice Stephen Rothman AM also supports AIPA’s ability to enrol QantasLink & Jetstar members, AIPA believes that the there is little chance that Kaufman’s decision will be overturned.
To assist Qantas Jetstar and QantasLink pilots better understand the reasoning behind:
Kaufman’s coverage decision,
How AIPA is reorganising to accommodate Qantas Jetstar and Qantaslink Members, and
What AIPA’s Professional Standards Campaign is expected to mean for all Qantas Group Pilots.
I hereby extend to all Qantas Group subsidiary pilots an invitation to attend an Information Session at the AIPA office at Suite 601, Level 6, 243-249 Coward Street, Mascot at 11:00am on Friday 22 June, 2007. Speaking at the meeting will be myself and Peter Sommerville (AIPA’s General Manager)
After a short presentation covering the above, Peter and I and members of the AIPA Committee of Management will be happy to take questions from all present on any AIPA related issues, including but not limited to:
AIPA's proposed Rules change,
Common conditions for all Qantas Group Pilots,
More opportunities for career progression, and
An economic stake for pilots in the industry.
To assist with the provision of a light lunch after the meeting, those planning to attend are requested to notify Ms Kim Elliott at AIPA office on 02 8273-7777 or email her at: [email protected]
Please rest assured that the above event is not a “political rally” and I welcome the participation and presence of all AFAP and Qantas Company Council pilots. At the heart of my endeavours is my genuine desire to see AIPA do what it can to help unify Australian flight crew representation ASAP.
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Just before everyone gets to excited the President of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission granted a stay application against the decision today in Melbourne. He based it upon the grounds made out and the likely success of an appeal. This means that the current coverage arrangements remain in place until the full appeal is dealt with (i.e. AIPA has no current coverage of Jetstar, Eastern or Sunstate pilots)
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations AFAP
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations AFAP
Nunc est bibendum
That doesn't stop AIPA holding a meeting such as the one above.
Since you're engaging on this forum Lawrie, care to elaborate on why AFAP is appealing the decision?
Since you're engaging on this forum Lawrie, care to elaborate on why AFAP is appealing the decision?
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Conflicting statements
It seems an email doing the rounds contradicts what Lawrie Cox stated. Here is an excerpt:
So who is correct?
AIPA AIRC Rule Decision Held Over
An application by Qantas and AFAP for an immediate stay of the decision of SDP Kaufman enlarging AIPA coverage was refused by the President of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission in Melbourne today.
Instead, the AIRC said that SDP Kaufman should proceed to give his consent to the AIPA Rule change.
The AIRC said that when SDP Kaufman had done so, a stay would be ordered to operate seven days from that decision unless AIPA persuaded him to the contrary.
AIPA’s submission was that the Qantas and AFAP application for a stay was premature as in fact no formal decision had been made by SDP Kaufman at the time their application was lodged.
A stay is usual when an Appeal has been lodged. It operates until the hearing of the Appeal. AIPA will be seeking an expeditious hearing.
Having reviewed SDP Kaufman’s decision, I am personally comforted by the full bench’s determination and remain confident that ultimately common sense will prevail.
An application by Qantas and AFAP for an immediate stay of the decision of SDP Kaufman enlarging AIPA coverage was refused by the President of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission in Melbourne today.
Instead, the AIRC said that SDP Kaufman should proceed to give his consent to the AIPA Rule change.
The AIRC said that when SDP Kaufman had done so, a stay would be ordered to operate seven days from that decision unless AIPA persuaded him to the contrary.
AIPA’s submission was that the Qantas and AFAP application for a stay was premature as in fact no formal decision had been made by SDP Kaufman at the time their application was lodged.
A stay is usual when an Appeal has been lodged. It operates until the hearing of the Appeal. AIPA will be seeking an expeditious hearing.
Having reviewed SDP Kaufman’s decision, I am personally comforted by the full bench’s determination and remain confident that ultimately common sense will prevail.
can we expect any unification with this sh t going on! This shows up the very sorry state we are all in. 
Mr Cox
Stop thinking about your own job and consider the Pilots instead. What are you afraid of? The JPC/AFAP should be prepared to stand by their record. What have you achieved for your members to date?
A sub standard EBA built on fear and now AWA's for new hires over your members!
Remember - "it's all about choice".
Stop thinking about your own job and consider the Pilots instead. What are you afraid of? The JPC/AFAP should be prepared to stand by their record. What have you achieved for your members to date?
A sub standard EBA built on fear and now AWA's for new hires over your members!
Remember - "it's all about choice".
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Cloudbuster, I have two problems with your 'challenge' above
1) "its all about choice" -- just goes to show how much the consumer mindset has taken hold of contemporary thinking. Choice is good in some areas, and counterproductive in others. If you are talking about driving down prices and increasing the variety of goods and services in a marketplace, yes, choice is good if you are a consumer.
However, choice is very bad for you as a the provider of a narrow set of skills that took a huge investment in time and effort. That is why companies, developers etc are dependent on devices such as patents, intellectual property rights, etc.
Example: Test the proposition that "Choice is good". Ok. Lets increase choice for the employer - allow Direct Entry pilots to compete on an equal footing with incumbent first officers seeking an upgrade. How do you think that would run for the FO's in your organisation, would they embrace that concept? Is choice in all forms still good?
If this ruling survives the appeal (and an appeal has been granted, which means at least one judge can see that it has merit), then no one union or association will have total support. The 'market share' to put it in your terms, might be 50/50, 75/25, or even 80/20, but it will never be 100/0.
All that 'choice' does for pilots in an industrial sense, is to ensure that there will never be one effective voice for pilots.
2) You put the emphasis on the AFAP to show what they have done for their members. Unfortunately that only shows that you miss the entire concept of how a union achieves 'a win.'
The membership. A united membership that is willing to take a risk, in order to win better conditions. A membership that understands that "power is never ceded without a fight."
The union staff is selected for their knowledge and expertise, but it is the membership that sets the direction and generates the 'push.'
Take a look at one of the more successful unions in this country, the CFMEU. These construction workers earn salaries that rival B737 captains in this country. The media like to focus their attention on their leader, Big Kev (not the fat spruiker from QLD, the union man from WA). But as Big Kev put it himself, the only reason the CFMEU is the attitude of their members.
"Our people earn that sort of money because they understand the collective".
Folk like Cloudbuster can sit back and defend their right to choice and hang on to the cult of individuality if they like. However, so long as you guys think like consumers of a service, we will be hamstrung, and Cloudbuster will be taking a slice of an ever diminishing pie.
The problem here is not really which union represents the QF group pilots. It might be a new flag, but it is flying above a group of people that has not changed, and I suspect wont change much, especially if they continue in the mistaken belief that AIPA can do much more for them than AFAP or any other organisation.
Same army, new uniform.
Takes a lot more than that to win a battle.
1) "its all about choice" -- just goes to show how much the consumer mindset has taken hold of contemporary thinking. Choice is good in some areas, and counterproductive in others. If you are talking about driving down prices and increasing the variety of goods and services in a marketplace, yes, choice is good if you are a consumer.
However, choice is very bad for you as a the provider of a narrow set of skills that took a huge investment in time and effort. That is why companies, developers etc are dependent on devices such as patents, intellectual property rights, etc.
Example: Test the proposition that "Choice is good". Ok. Lets increase choice for the employer - allow Direct Entry pilots to compete on an equal footing with incumbent first officers seeking an upgrade. How do you think that would run for the FO's in your organisation, would they embrace that concept? Is choice in all forms still good?
If this ruling survives the appeal (and an appeal has been granted, which means at least one judge can see that it has merit), then no one union or association will have total support. The 'market share' to put it in your terms, might be 50/50, 75/25, or even 80/20, but it will never be 100/0.
All that 'choice' does for pilots in an industrial sense, is to ensure that there will never be one effective voice for pilots.
2) You put the emphasis on the AFAP to show what they have done for their members. Unfortunately that only shows that you miss the entire concept of how a union achieves 'a win.'
The membership. A united membership that is willing to take a risk, in order to win better conditions. A membership that understands that "power is never ceded without a fight."
The union staff is selected for their knowledge and expertise, but it is the membership that sets the direction and generates the 'push.'
Take a look at one of the more successful unions in this country, the CFMEU. These construction workers earn salaries that rival B737 captains in this country. The media like to focus their attention on their leader, Big Kev (not the fat spruiker from QLD, the union man from WA). But as Big Kev put it himself, the only reason the CFMEU is the attitude of their members.
"Our people earn that sort of money because they understand the collective".
Folk like Cloudbuster can sit back and defend their right to choice and hang on to the cult of individuality if they like. However, so long as you guys think like consumers of a service, we will be hamstrung, and Cloudbuster will be taking a slice of an ever diminishing pie.
The problem here is not really which union represents the QF group pilots. It might be a new flag, but it is flying above a group of people that has not changed, and I suspect wont change much, especially if they continue in the mistaken belief that AIPA can do much more for them than AFAP or any other organisation.
Same army, new uniform.
Takes a lot more than that to win a battle.
Last edited by ITCZ; 9th Jun 2007 at 05:35.
Slice the real story is rather long and thus I am not going to every little event,rather I shall give just an overview for now.In 2004 AIPA embarked on a membership drive at Eastern and a Trojan horse otherwise known as the EPG was formed and one of their first tasks was to discredit the AFAP.The truth of course was not to get in the way.The commandant over in tha AIPA bunker was really running the show for the EPG,they were willing foot soldiers.So you see Slice poor old wayne king and his ilk can continue to hallucinate and be all bitter and twisted as that is the way they want to be.The garbage about choice is right out of the EPG manual and although AIPA themselves do not want their existing members to have a choice(as that would weaken their position),but it is a different thing for the regionals,they must have a choice.Just another case of do as I say not as I do,the audacity of them is astonishing.The CoM needs to be sacked and replaced with a team that at least knows which way is up and is fair dinkum about unity.
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Keg
To answer very bluntly the Federation will protect its area of coverage from bodies seeking to move in (in this case AIPA) that should come as no surprise to anybody with a working knowledge of unions.
We are appealing a decision full of inaccuracies and the ultimate conclusion which is founded on an error in the way the Senior Deputy President read the section of the act. Time will tell if we are right at the appeal but it was to say the least misleading to say that the stay was not immediate for the purpose of its operation. As someone who sat through Fridays proceedings Justice Giudice simply wanted to avoid a further dealy by allowing the final step of the original decision to be acted upon then he stayed the whole lot so that the Full Bench can deal with it all and not have someone playing games about the process causing delays.
I have no problem with anyone attending a meeting a AIPA what i am getting "jack of" is the plain rubbish been spoken about futre unity when the whole exercise is only about protecting QF mainline backsides and using others as their pawns.
The Federation has put it to AIPA to give us a full written proposal that can be considered at our Executive in mid June for one pilot body in Aus. Guess what they can't and will not do it because it exposes the fraud that is being played out. They do not want GA pilots, or helicopters or small airlines in the camp and god forbid you give them equal standing with the QF skygods in voting strength.
The pilot unions will never get together whilst you exclude professional pilots who do not meet the percieved "gods gift to avaition" standards.
If your fair dinkum about the future of pilot unions convince AIPA to embrace all professional pilots and work with us on a structure to achieve rather fight in the courts.
Cloudburst
I do not care what you think mate but this is not about me it is about you and your fellow peers and their futures. Hopefully you might wake up before its too late.
As a side note or for you an inconvienent truth over 70% of the Jetstar pilots voted their agreement up and the wide body amendment we are and have continued attempts to work with the group not stand back and call them parasites and actively try to discredit them as AIPA and its leaders have done since the outset.
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
To answer very bluntly the Federation will protect its area of coverage from bodies seeking to move in (in this case AIPA) that should come as no surprise to anybody with a working knowledge of unions.
We are appealing a decision full of inaccuracies and the ultimate conclusion which is founded on an error in the way the Senior Deputy President read the section of the act. Time will tell if we are right at the appeal but it was to say the least misleading to say that the stay was not immediate for the purpose of its operation. As someone who sat through Fridays proceedings Justice Giudice simply wanted to avoid a further dealy by allowing the final step of the original decision to be acted upon then he stayed the whole lot so that the Full Bench can deal with it all and not have someone playing games about the process causing delays.
I have no problem with anyone attending a meeting a AIPA what i am getting "jack of" is the plain rubbish been spoken about futre unity when the whole exercise is only about protecting QF mainline backsides and using others as their pawns.
The Federation has put it to AIPA to give us a full written proposal that can be considered at our Executive in mid June for one pilot body in Aus. Guess what they can't and will not do it because it exposes the fraud that is being played out. They do not want GA pilots, or helicopters or small airlines in the camp and god forbid you give them equal standing with the QF skygods in voting strength.
The pilot unions will never get together whilst you exclude professional pilots who do not meet the percieved "gods gift to avaition" standards.
If your fair dinkum about the future of pilot unions convince AIPA to embrace all professional pilots and work with us on a structure to achieve rather fight in the courts.
Cloudburst
I do not care what you think mate but this is not about me it is about you and your fellow peers and their futures. Hopefully you might wake up before its too late.
As a side note or for you an inconvienent truth over 70% of the Jetstar pilots voted their agreement up and the wide body amendment we are and have continued attempts to work with the group not stand back and call them parasites and actively try to discredit them as AIPA and its leaders have done since the outset.
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
Lawrie, I could not quite work out from your post if the Jetstar wide body deal is on the plus or the minus side of the ledger when you are telling us about the AFAP working for the Jetstar pilot group.