Qantas must break unions: Ryanair co-founder
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Mr. Sunfish, now I'm not being a smartarse here but I'm very interested to see an example of a FREE market. I'm not talking the Theoretical sense but a genuine, working FREE market. Could it be in a real industry please with no internal or external factors affecting it's FREE status. I don't mean one that's legislated or created because we know thats not FREE. We are talking about a FREE market that evolved and behaves the way econ 151 told us it would.
Anyway, again I'm not being a smartarse but I'm just interested to see an example.
Thanks
Anyway, again I'm not being a smartarse but I'm just interested to see an example.
Thanks
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free markets and Jonny Howards low unemployment rates
those of you watching ABC's 7.30 report last night gave another insight how corrupt the current government is. the constant misinformtion/ twisting of facts is amazing.
get this. some years ago the government changed the formula how to classify a full time employee.if you work 2 hours a forthnight you are classified as full time employee (it was something like 20 hours previously).
it does not matter if you are casual or something else. as the researcher pointed out i has and will have even more negative effects on the whole country in the future.
get this. some years ago the government changed the formula how to classify a full time employee.if you work 2 hours a forthnight you are classified as full time employee (it was something like 20 hours previously).
it does not matter if you are casual or something else. as the researcher pointed out i has and will have even more negative effects on the whole country in the future.
With respect Mr. Whisky, you are running a line here that suggests that because there is no perfect free market, then the entire concept of the free market is of no use.
Perhaps I could state it better by saying that the freer the market, the more efficient it becomes as a direct result of competition, and that produces a net benefit to the economy. Sure, change is painful. Jobs are lost, but they are replaced with other jobs, and there is always a net positive gain. Please do not try and argue against this because it is rather like arguing against gravity.
In business what one tries to do is approach a monopoly position - build barriers to entry, destroy or buy competitors and in effect destroy competition and operate as a monopoly (or Oligopoly).
We have an organisation the ACCC whose job it is to stop businesses doing this, for example there is currently the question of the Alinta takeover and the necessity for the company to divest itself of certain assets to maintain healthy competition if ACCC approval is to be received.
Its also no secret that markets become corrupt and innefficient when there is not healthy and open competition. Look no further than the AWB and the current mess in the Murray Darling Basin caused by dumb water pricing arrangements. Look at what happened to the Soviet Union. Competition is good, and the more competition the better the economy performs.
By the way, the closest thing you will find to a pure free market is fruit and vegetables, followed by commodities like Iron ore, coal and suchlike. There are a multiplicity of buyers and sellers.
I'm really getting tired of argunig this, to put it in pilotspeak, its like me arguing that I really could fly on instruments without an IFR rating because I'm somehow "different" from every other VFR pilot.
Anyway I'm out of here and going to fly the mighty Cessna 172 around in circles for a while.
Perhaps I could state it better by saying that the freer the market, the more efficient it becomes as a direct result of competition, and that produces a net benefit to the economy. Sure, change is painful. Jobs are lost, but they are replaced with other jobs, and there is always a net positive gain. Please do not try and argue against this because it is rather like arguing against gravity.
In business what one tries to do is approach a monopoly position - build barriers to entry, destroy or buy competitors and in effect destroy competition and operate as a monopoly (or Oligopoly).
We have an organisation the ACCC whose job it is to stop businesses doing this, for example there is currently the question of the Alinta takeover and the necessity for the company to divest itself of certain assets to maintain healthy competition if ACCC approval is to be received.
Its also no secret that markets become corrupt and innefficient when there is not healthy and open competition. Look no further than the AWB and the current mess in the Murray Darling Basin caused by dumb water pricing arrangements. Look at what happened to the Soviet Union. Competition is good, and the more competition the better the economy performs.
By the way, the closest thing you will find to a pure free market is fruit and vegetables, followed by commodities like Iron ore, coal and suchlike. There are a multiplicity of buyers and sellers.
I'm really getting tired of argunig this, to put it in pilotspeak, its like me arguing that I really could fly on instruments without an IFR rating because I'm somehow "different" from every other VFR pilot.
Anyway I'm out of here and going to fly the mighty Cessna 172 around in circles for a while.
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Here we go again with Gilligans delusional theory of economics all over again..Quote from Gilligan “Jobs are lost, but they are replaced with other jobs, and there is always a net positive gain.”
Extending this infantile theory.If QF goes under and 30,000 people lose their jobs then at least 30,000 more jobs would be created.
Gilligan is the only person on this planet who can understand and support such a ridiculous and baseless assumption.
The social impact alone of that many job losses would be horrendous and this clown thinks it would be fine and WHY?
This all comes back to Ansett going broke because Gilligan blames QF for it’s demise.This is all about jealousy and hatred.
Oh and by the way Gilligan there is no such word as “micturating”….”Micturate” is a verb and is defined as “to urinate” and is only a technical one at that and is about as common in everyday speech as is your illusory and puerile economics theory.
What you should have said that something was akin to someone trying to micturate into the wind .So your “mythical word micturating” is incorrect and reinforces the concept that you are a complete TOSSER.
Instead of using a thesaurus I suggest you stick to Dr Seuss .
Sunfish ,I have a question for you..."what did Santa bring you last Christmas ? and I imagine you can't wait for the Easter Bunny too !
Now don't tell me that you are actually in control of an aircraft? I'm going outside to dig a bunker as deep as possible.
Extending this infantile theory.If QF goes under and 30,000 people lose their jobs then at least 30,000 more jobs would be created.
Gilligan is the only person on this planet who can understand and support such a ridiculous and baseless assumption.
The social impact alone of that many job losses would be horrendous and this clown thinks it would be fine and WHY?
This all comes back to Ansett going broke because Gilligan blames QF for it’s demise.This is all about jealousy and hatred.
Oh and by the way Gilligan there is no such word as “micturating”….”Micturate” is a verb and is defined as “to urinate” and is only a technical one at that and is about as common in everyday speech as is your illusory and puerile economics theory.
What you should have said that something was akin to someone trying to micturate into the wind .So your “mythical word micturating” is incorrect and reinforces the concept that you are a complete TOSSER.
Instead of using a thesaurus I suggest you stick to Dr Seuss .
Sunfish ,I have a question for you..."what did Santa bring you last Christmas ? and I imagine you can't wait for the Easter Bunny too !
Now don't tell me that you are actually in control of an aircraft? I'm going outside to dig a bunker as deep as possible.
Last edited by lowerlobe; 31st Jan 2007 at 00:22.
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I agree Mr. Sunfish that markets need to be competitive but my problem lies with the cost. It's all well and good having cheap imports but what about the cost to local industry. While some industries may not be competitive on a global scale they may very well perform a greater function in domestic economies, the multiplier. If they employ people then the money stays here and while it may not be the cheapest it may be of a higher quality and at least gives someone a job.
There are no free markets and while some may be more free than others there will always be people trying to capitalise on that freedom. Don't get me started on Fruit and Vegies or Mining, being of an ethnic persuasion I am well versed in the machinations of both idustries efforts to monopolise and control.
This is the problem with globalisation, we no longer care about national interest. Multinationals don't care about Australia, they care about short term gains. Now we can suggest that the industries we are not competitive in will be replaced by ones we are, it is the natural evolution of globalisation. But what if that industry has an important security role? Or if the industry is important to quality of life. Things like telecommunications or utilities or maybe aviation. Soemtimes, much to the disgust of ecomonists we should protect our domestic industries, so they are there for our grandchildren.
One of my main concerns with modern economics and modern managers for that matter is the complete lack of care for human factors. While MBA's are off spruiking the benefits of free markets, Tran in China has a job with no OH&S and serious pollution to his waterways while Geoff is trying to figure out why after 20 years of good hard work he is made redundant. I might even get a cheap airfare to bali but with an Indian pilot and Russian cabin crew ( no disrespect to either ethnic group I would just rather Aussies).Yeh we might have lots more fancy toys these days but at what cost.
Sorry for the long post and I hope you enjoy your day in the air.
There are no free markets and while some may be more free than others there will always be people trying to capitalise on that freedom. Don't get me started on Fruit and Vegies or Mining, being of an ethnic persuasion I am well versed in the machinations of both idustries efforts to monopolise and control.
This is the problem with globalisation, we no longer care about national interest. Multinationals don't care about Australia, they care about short term gains. Now we can suggest that the industries we are not competitive in will be replaced by ones we are, it is the natural evolution of globalisation. But what if that industry has an important security role? Or if the industry is important to quality of life. Things like telecommunications or utilities or maybe aviation. Soemtimes, much to the disgust of ecomonists we should protect our domestic industries, so they are there for our grandchildren.
One of my main concerns with modern economics and modern managers for that matter is the complete lack of care for human factors. While MBA's are off spruiking the benefits of free markets, Tran in China has a job with no OH&S and serious pollution to his waterways while Geoff is trying to figure out why after 20 years of good hard work he is made redundant. I might even get a cheap airfare to bali but with an Indian pilot and Russian cabin crew ( no disrespect to either ethnic group I would just rather Aussies).Yeh we might have lots more fancy toys these days but at what cost.
Sorry for the long post and I hope you enjoy your day in the air.
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Qcc2 you must have enjoyed the recent boast from the workplace relations minister stating that industrial disputation was at its lowest level since 1913 due to workchoices.
Bit like banning cars and then gloating about how you've managed to reduce the road toll.
Bit like banning cars and then gloating about how you've managed to reduce the road toll.
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jack red's world:
Bland reportage of irrefutable facts which, standing alone, are damning of incumbent federal government = pinko bias.
Truth distorting, deceptive and duplicitous, partisan swill vomited over the airwaves and newspapers by army of foamingly rabid right-wing pro-government media sycophants and toadies = clear and incisive, fair-minded and balanced analysis.
Bland reportage of irrefutable facts which, standing alone, are damning of incumbent federal government = pinko bias.
Truth distorting, deceptive and duplicitous, partisan swill vomited over the airwaves and newspapers by army of foamingly rabid right-wing pro-government media sycophants and toadies = clear and incisive, fair-minded and balanced analysis.
Last edited by jaded boiler; 1st Feb 2007 at 06:22.
Grandpa Aerotart
I often wonder how anyone could ever consider aviation could ever achieve anything approaching free market status.
You have a large number of airlines competing for passengers based on price and yet all airlines operate in a monopolistic system as far as the majority of their operating expences are concerned...terminal rental, air nav charges, fuel pricing, spare parts, insurance...even aircraft purchasing is, these days, limited to 1.5 choices...the list probably goes on.
Little wonder airlines are so marginally profitable and that airline management are only able to attack T&Cs of staff to increase profitability
You have a large number of airlines competing for passengers based on price and yet all airlines operate in a monopolistic system as far as the majority of their operating expences are concerned...terminal rental, air nav charges, fuel pricing, spare parts, insurance...even aircraft purchasing is, these days, limited to 1.5 choices...the list probably goes on.
Little wonder airlines are so marginally profitable and that airline management are only able to attack T&Cs of staff to increase profitability
Extending this infantile theory.If QF goes under and 30,000 people lose their jobs then at least 30,000 more jobs would be created.
Furthermore, all special pleaders, claim that they will "go under" if their requests for protection are not met. When their request are quite correctly refused, they generally snap out of it, lift their game and then beat their new competitors. I assume Lowerlobe, that you are far too young to remember what Australian cars were like two decades ago when the car companies hid behind a wall of 100% protection. they made the same claim about "going under' back then - we export cars now.
In the case of Qantas, I expect it would shed several layers of management, get rid of cosy work arrangements and decide to beat competitors on quality and price ie:VALUE FOR MONEY.
Gilligan is the only person on this planet who can understand and support such a ridiculous and baseless assumption.
The social impact alone of that many job losses would be horrendous and this clown thinks it would be fine and WHY?
As an alternative, please explain to the Australian community why they should pay at least a billion dollars a year in corporate profits to Qantas and treat you as a special case, unlike everybody else in this country who has to put up with and beat international competitors to stay in business. Or are your bleatings to be taken as an admission that you are inferior to your competitors, and that Qantas is an "International" airline in name only?
And as a final question and example, exactly what state would the Australian tourism industry be in today if we had maintained the two airline policy? Tourism hotspots like Cable Beach, Noosa, Cairns, Port Douglas, Hamilton Island (to name but a few) exist only because of relatively cheap affordable air travel.
As for the rest of the Ad Hominem attacks, I suggest you are bringing your profession into disrepute.
P.S. You could actually see the thermals off the garbage dumps at YMMB from the dust devils. Nice little work out for a simple low time pilot like me.
Last edited by Sunfish; 31st Jan 2007 at 04:01.
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Taildragger - I am afraid I would vote for little Johnny - again.
Let us all remember that the last Labor incumbent in cahoots with the fatman engineered the disaster that put many of your colleagues at each others throats through no fault of their own.
Labor in Tasmania did also do secret deals with Impulse to service the State.
Too many secret deals and "need to know" items.
Little Johnny may have gone too far to the right with industrial relations, but just a little. It was too far to the left in the past with the employer considered wrong until proved otherwise as I found out with a life support system for a vagina that I was stupid enough to employ.
Live and learn.
Go Johny.
Best regards
EWL
Let us all remember that the last Labor incumbent in cahoots with the fatman engineered the disaster that put many of your colleagues at each others throats through no fault of their own.
Labor in Tasmania did also do secret deals with Impulse to service the State.
Too many secret deals and "need to know" items.
Little Johnny may have gone too far to the right with industrial relations, but just a little. It was too far to the left in the past with the employer considered wrong until proved otherwise as I found out with a life support system for a vagina that I was stupid enough to employ.
Live and learn.
Go Johny.
Best regards
EWL
Grandpa Aerotart
I can't think of a downside to workchoices...for those with the get up and go to work towards a common goal...nothing backs everyone into the same corner faster than unfettered employers...it's just an industrial sine curve.
Might be a bit difficult for the third generation institutionalised dole bludgers...but nothing is perfect.
I admit some of LJH's stuff has made me shake my head...but then we are NEVER made aware of all the inputs to his decision making process..we'd need an unbiassed free media system for that
Rudd might be the man to give him a run for his money...the first Labor politician (note lower case p) to do so....but I spend a lot of time in UK each mth and their version of 'Noo' Labor has been an unfettered disaster of pc, greeny and fiscal lunacy.
Might be a bit difficult for the third generation institutionalised dole bludgers...but nothing is perfect.
I admit some of LJH's stuff has made me shake my head...but then we are NEVER made aware of all the inputs to his decision making process..we'd need an unbiassed free media system for that
Rudd might be the man to give him a run for his money...the first Labor politician (note lower case p) to do so....but I spend a lot of time in UK each mth and their version of 'Noo' Labor has been an unfettered disaster of pc, greeny and fiscal lunacy.
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Is this what you mean by unfettered employers CC?
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/...919323857.html
No thanks, all the same.
I'll vote for a fair, inclusive and to some degree at least, egalitarian society.
Without an underclass.
No thanks, all the same.
I'll vote for a fair, inclusive and to some degree at least, egalitarian society.
Without an underclass.
Grandpa Aerotart
If that is what it takes to unite society to rebalance things then yep that is exactly what I mean.
I am a bit concerned about this though.
So they weren't sick but they want to be paid the money anyway?. Effectively alluding to the fact that the workers equated sick leave with some sort of extra holiday entitlement
This is the sort of thinking that must change in Australia...we need balance and some give and take not the type of entrenched union thinking we had in the 70s and 80s.
Think back across the the time span between now and the industrial revolution...it is a bit like climate change...never stable and slowly swinging from one extreme to the other.
There are lots of things wrong with the thought processes of the average Australian working man and women...being paid more to be on holidays than productively working is one and the above example of sick leave is another. Certainly the bosses have been on the ascendant for the last 25 or so years but I think Workchoices and the information age will swing it back our way...it needs to because the average man and women has not had a payrise that kept up with inflation since the early 70s...the same happened in the 50 and 60s until there was a huge breakout of wages in the late 60s early 70s.
There just has to be some middle ground.
I am a bit concerned about this though.
"We're owed about 1000 hours of sick leave each on average, but we lost that too," Mr Peek said.
This is the sort of thinking that must change in Australia...we need balance and some give and take not the type of entrenched union thinking we had in the 70s and 80s.
Think back across the the time span between now and the industrial revolution...it is a bit like climate change...never stable and slowly swinging from one extreme to the other.
There are lots of things wrong with the thought processes of the average Australian working man and women...being paid more to be on holidays than productively working is one and the above example of sick leave is another. Certainly the bosses have been on the ascendant for the last 25 or so years but I think Workchoices and the information age will swing it back our way...it needs to because the average man and women has not had a payrise that kept up with inflation since the early 70s...the same happened in the 50 and 60s until there was a huge breakout of wages in the late 60s early 70s.
There just has to be some middle ground.
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Chuck you are on the money again
Sick Leave is a privelege and NOT a right. You have a right to accumulate some but not a right to use it other than when sick. nothing more to say really!
The sooner some folk get the idea that the common goal and being productive is the only way forward, the better for all. This includes everyone not just one group.
J
Sick Leave is a privelege and NOT a right. You have a right to accumulate some but not a right to use it other than when sick. nothing more to say really!
The sooner some folk get the idea that the common goal and being productive is the only way forward, the better for all. This includes everyone not just one group.
J
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Chimbu Chuckles is in LA LA land.....
Quote- "but I think Workchoices and the information age will swing it back our way..."
Are you suggesting in some way that workchoices is going to IMPROVE the lot of average worker in this country???
If so you really do need your head read.
You seem fixated by a comment about unpade/lost sickleave in the article I posted.
May I suggest you read it again and think about how attrociously these long term employees have been and are, being treated.
The company denied a redundancy payment to a dying man BECAUSE HE WAS DYING and they are paying staff to do nothing for over twelve months in order to avoid paying them their full redundancy entitlements.
You want more of this "unfettered" employer control?
Are you suggesting in some way that workchoices is going to IMPROVE the lot of average worker in this country???
If so you really do need your head read.
You seem fixated by a comment about unpade/lost sickleave in the article I posted.
May I suggest you read it again and think about how attrociously these long term employees have been and are, being treated.
The company denied a redundancy payment to a dying man BECAUSE HE WAS DYING and they are paying staff to do nothing for over twelve months in order to avoid paying them their full redundancy entitlements.
You want more of this "unfettered" employer control?
Grandpa Aerotart
I did read all of it and my powers of basic comprehension are as good as anyone's.
I think the reaction to employers cynically using workchoices is what will swing it back...helped by 'the information highway'.
A society is a huge entity with lots of momentum...change comes hard.
If you think voting in the Labor party will be better then I think you're in la la land...take a look at Britain under 'Noo labor'. It's a fecking disaster area of pc, greeny, fiscal lunacy that is being deserted in droves by ethnic 'Brits'. 1000/mth is one statistic I have seen...permanently leaving while Eastern Europeans and sundry other demographics arrive in a completely uncontrolled never ending stream
There is not a Govt policy ever write that was good for everybody...nor will one ever be written. Unfortunately modern society lost the ability to think about more than their immediate individual wants in the mths and years after the Cold War ended.
If you think Australia is in bad shape you need to travel more...they think Howard is wonderful in the UK...well the non huggy fluffy, non PC WASPs do anyway.
I think the reaction to employers cynically using workchoices is what will swing it back...helped by 'the information highway'.
A society is a huge entity with lots of momentum...change comes hard.
If you think voting in the Labor party will be better then I think you're in la la land...take a look at Britain under 'Noo labor'. It's a fecking disaster area of pc, greeny, fiscal lunacy that is being deserted in droves by ethnic 'Brits'. 1000/mth is one statistic I have seen...permanently leaving while Eastern Europeans and sundry other demographics arrive in a completely uncontrolled never ending stream
There is not a Govt policy ever write that was good for everybody...nor will one ever be written. Unfortunately modern society lost the ability to think about more than their immediate individual wants in the mths and years after the Cold War ended.
If you think Australia is in bad shape you need to travel more...they think Howard is wonderful in the UK...well the non huggy fluffy, non PC WASPs do anyway.
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Quote- "you want more of this unfettered employer control".
I'll take that as a yes then.
If thats the case here is some more reading to warm the cockles of your heart......
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/r...919337040.html
I'll take that as a yes then.
If thats the case here is some more reading to warm the cockles of your heart......
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/r...919337040.html