Qantas must break unions: Ryanair co-founder
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Warning! MBA! MBA gave us BSE
We shouldn't be too hard on Sunfish, he is simply telling us what he was trained to believe.
Anyone that spends a significant amount of personal time and resources to pursue an objective will put a lot of importance in that learning. It will become the way they view the world. The danger is though that sometimes they forget it is just ONE way of viewing the world.
Anybody here ever worked for a company run by an engineer? They can often be good places to work, all the tech stuff is emphasized in importance due to the technical orientation of the guy in charge.. an engineer. But they can be pr!cks of places to work for when you start arguing lifestyle issues such, work/life balance, right to representation by a union, etc. You can't get time off to sort out your marriage, etc.
What is more important is -- beware the MBA. A world run by MBAs (or ATPLs) would not be worth living in. The MBA is a servant of the currently ascendant extreme capitalist system, which in its ideal state, sets itself apart from the natural world that unfortunately, we carbon-based lifeforms occupy.
(as an aside, it always makes me smile when I hear an economist talking about the 'real' world. The last thing a market is, is 'real.' A market is an idea, a logical construct. It is not 'real'!)
Example. BSE. Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy, aka Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease, aka "mad cow disease."
The meat industry, like the aviation industry, has always been under pressure to be 'efficient.' When you send a sheep or a cow to the slaughterhouse, you kill a whole animal, but not all of that protein is considered fit for human consumption.
So what to do with all the bits of the cow and sheep that cant be sold for human consumption? As part of the cannibalistic merry-go-round that is an economically essential part of the meat industry, all the bits of animals from slaughterhouses unsuitable for human consumption are boiled up to produce fat and protein. The protein makes animal feed.
Which is fed to other sheep and cattle, which one day will be fed to us.
Now, you and I might pause and think... sheep and cattle are herbivores. They browse paddocks of grasses, etc. That is what they have eaten for centuries. Maybe feeding recycled animal protein to herbivores might have risks, perhaps even unwanted side effects.
But the meat producers wanted to sell it. So they asked scientists "is there anything that says we should not sell it as stock feed?"
Something that you as an MBA or an ATPL might not understand is the extremely high level of intellectual integrity demanded of the scientist. A scientist will not release a statement unless he/she can prove it.
They said, in effect, there is nothing to say it is dangerous. They also said that there was nothing to suggest that it was safe.
The inevitable happened when industry messed with nature on a big scale. Funny things started happening at the milking shed. Some cows started standing apart from the herd. Others got frightened by the milking machines. They lost large amounts of weight. They died.
When/if they were slaughtered, their brains were riddled with holes like sponges. Not unlike the brains of some PNG folk, dying of a strange disease called "Kuru" that killed up to 80 percent of some women in villages that practiced cannibalism (to increase fertility!).
So where are we now?
In the world created by the MBAs, there is officially no problem. Despite the fact that over 150,000 cattle, or half the national herd, in the UK have the disease. Despite the fact that regular eaters of beef products are 13 more times likely to contract Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (CJD). Despite the fact that soon, more people in Europe will die per annum of CJD than AIDS.
Any layperson exercising commonsense would make the connection that forced cannibalism in herbivores used as a human food source might have problems. They would certainly demand that the practice cease immediately once the huge risk to human consumers became known.
But not the MBAs. The common market would collapse.
It is ok for humans to die of an incurable dementia due to their basic food source. But it is inconceivable to the MBA to allow a market to collapse!
http://www.mad-cow.org/
Beware any system being run unfettered by an MBA.
Anyone that spends a significant amount of personal time and resources to pursue an objective will put a lot of importance in that learning. It will become the way they view the world. The danger is though that sometimes they forget it is just ONE way of viewing the world.
Anybody here ever worked for a company run by an engineer? They can often be good places to work, all the tech stuff is emphasized in importance due to the technical orientation of the guy in charge.. an engineer. But they can be pr!cks of places to work for when you start arguing lifestyle issues such, work/life balance, right to representation by a union, etc. You can't get time off to sort out your marriage, etc.
What is more important is -- beware the MBA. A world run by MBAs (or ATPLs) would not be worth living in. The MBA is a servant of the currently ascendant extreme capitalist system, which in its ideal state, sets itself apart from the natural world that unfortunately, we carbon-based lifeforms occupy.
(as an aside, it always makes me smile when I hear an economist talking about the 'real' world. The last thing a market is, is 'real.' A market is an idea, a logical construct. It is not 'real'!)
Example. BSE. Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy, aka Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease, aka "mad cow disease."
The meat industry, like the aviation industry, has always been under pressure to be 'efficient.' When you send a sheep or a cow to the slaughterhouse, you kill a whole animal, but not all of that protein is considered fit for human consumption.
So what to do with all the bits of the cow and sheep that cant be sold for human consumption? As part of the cannibalistic merry-go-round that is an economically essential part of the meat industry, all the bits of animals from slaughterhouses unsuitable for human consumption are boiled up to produce fat and protein. The protein makes animal feed.
Which is fed to other sheep and cattle, which one day will be fed to us.
Now, you and I might pause and think... sheep and cattle are herbivores. They browse paddocks of grasses, etc. That is what they have eaten for centuries. Maybe feeding recycled animal protein to herbivores might have risks, perhaps even unwanted side effects.
But the meat producers wanted to sell it. So they asked scientists "is there anything that says we should not sell it as stock feed?"
Something that you as an MBA or an ATPL might not understand is the extremely high level of intellectual integrity demanded of the scientist. A scientist will not release a statement unless he/she can prove it.
They said, in effect, there is nothing to say it is dangerous. They also said that there was nothing to suggest that it was safe.
The inevitable happened when industry messed with nature on a big scale. Funny things started happening at the milking shed. Some cows started standing apart from the herd. Others got frightened by the milking machines. They lost large amounts of weight. They died.
When/if they were slaughtered, their brains were riddled with holes like sponges. Not unlike the brains of some PNG folk, dying of a strange disease called "Kuru" that killed up to 80 percent of some women in villages that practiced cannibalism (to increase fertility!).
So where are we now?
In the world created by the MBAs, there is officially no problem. Despite the fact that over 150,000 cattle, or half the national herd, in the UK have the disease. Despite the fact that regular eaters of beef products are 13 more times likely to contract Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (CJD). Despite the fact that soon, more people in Europe will die per annum of CJD than AIDS.
Any layperson exercising commonsense would make the connection that forced cannibalism in herbivores used as a human food source might have problems. They would certainly demand that the practice cease immediately once the huge risk to human consumers became known.
But not the MBAs. The common market would collapse.
It is ok for humans to die of an incurable dementia due to their basic food source. But it is inconceivable to the MBA to allow a market to collapse!
http://www.mad-cow.org/
Beware any system being run unfettered by an MBA.
Last edited by ITCZ; 28th Jan 2007 at 11:16.
Grandpa Aerotart
A scientist will not release a statement unless he/she can prove it.
Do some research on DDT, Global Warming, Global cooling, Ozone, Second hand smoke, Asbestos, Y2K etc and you'll soon see what I mean.
Since the advent of SETI the bar has been lowered on scientific integrity...lowered a very long way.
It's simply normal how many of you are in denial about free markets. You are perfectly happy to consume the fruits of such markets - cheap Korean and Chinese appliances, Malaysian cars and so on, but of course when it comes to YOUR Industry, you decide that free trade is good for everybody else, but not for you.
You then try and run the argument that you are somehow a special case. That too is predictable and the argument deserves exactly the same treatment that every other industry has received.
I'll look forward to watching you receive the Ryanair treatment - you deserve it.
You then try and run the argument that you are somehow a special case. That too is predictable and the argument deserves exactly the same treatment that every other industry has received.
I'll look forward to watching you receive the Ryanair treatment - you deserve it.
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Gilligan, Sorry I mean Sunfish,
So you are looking forward to the Ryanair effect.
So is that what happened to Ansett?
You remind me of one of the bitter twisted divorcees who blame everyone else except themselves for their situation.
So you are looking forward to the Ryanair effect.
So is that what happened to Ansett?
You remind me of one of the bitter twisted divorcees who blame everyone else except themselves for their situation.
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- Rod Eddington was brought in to prepare AN for sale at a price that would create value for the exiting owners.
- Rod fulfilled that requirement admirably and sold out to Garry Twomey at AirNZ at a super-premium price
- Air NZ didn't check under the carpets when it rushed its due diligence
- When Twomey discovered the lurking dry rot under the carpets it was too late
- A new entrant (VB) came in and stole the lowest price territory. BTW, VB has imitated many of RyanAir's tactics.
- September 11..., followed by September 12, 2001.
- And the winner is... Qantas!
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.........the Ryanair treatment
Ryanair is a progessive,profitable Company and continues to expand and employ people. It has an innovative and dynamic management. Despite assurances otherwise, you can bet there will be change at QF but why will that be bad for the airline?
Why, in the aviation business, are we so averse to change? Sabina, Swiss Air, PanAm - all finished because they couldn't or wouldn't accept change. Alitalia, Air France - watch it, you could be next.
Thankyou for your usual ad hominem attacks Lowerlobe and Hanoi. As usual you have no constructive comments to make.
This argument is not about Melbourne being a better place than Sydney, its about my contention (and others) that Sydney is getting a larger share of tourism, international trade and international investment because of capacity constraints on air travel into Melbourne that are within the control of Qantas.
The evidence for this is the loss of 500,000 seats per annum, according to SIA and Melbourne Airport.
Please note that this is about capacity not "38 airlines fly into Melbourne" etc. etc.
Of course it is in Qantas's interest to keep aircraft as full as possible since it improves the yield, but it is not in Victoria's interests if Business folk can't get here via direct flights.
At least in the early 80's this was a deliberate conspiracy and I am quite happy to swear a statutory declaration as to what I was told. Participants at the meeting were JB, RB, KB,and perhaps KH and RJ as well as me. We were well advanced in tooling up for the 767.
Since we were now into widebody, glass cockpit stuff etc. I raised the issue of spending a little more and setting up to do 747 line maintenance/TFC work for which there was a ready market because the Eureopean airlines were being screwed for $$$$ by QF in Sydney - and each flight had to go there inbound or outbound whether they liked it or not. I had letters from two airlines asking us to do this.
After two meetings at which a silence descended when I raised this matter, I was bluntly told by RB in front of the others; "Abeles will have our guts for garters if we break that monopoly so shut up and drop it."
The issue has been simmering for a long time, but at least the State Government is finally taking note.
PS. Hanoi, I have reciprocal rights at your yacht club.
This argument is not about Melbourne being a better place than Sydney, its about my contention (and others) that Sydney is getting a larger share of tourism, international trade and international investment because of capacity constraints on air travel into Melbourne that are within the control of Qantas.
The evidence for this is the loss of 500,000 seats per annum, according to SIA and Melbourne Airport.
Please note that this is about capacity not "38 airlines fly into Melbourne" etc. etc.
Of course it is in Qantas's interest to keep aircraft as full as possible since it improves the yield, but it is not in Victoria's interests if Business folk can't get here via direct flights.
At least in the early 80's this was a deliberate conspiracy and I am quite happy to swear a statutory declaration as to what I was told. Participants at the meeting were JB, RB, KB,and perhaps KH and RJ as well as me. We were well advanced in tooling up for the 767.
Since we were now into widebody, glass cockpit stuff etc. I raised the issue of spending a little more and setting up to do 747 line maintenance/TFC work for which there was a ready market because the Eureopean airlines were being screwed for $$$$ by QF in Sydney - and each flight had to go there inbound or outbound whether they liked it or not. I had letters from two airlines asking us to do this.
After two meetings at which a silence descended when I raised this matter, I was bluntly told by RB in front of the others; "Abeles will have our guts for garters if we break that monopoly so shut up and drop it."
The issue has been simmering for a long time, but at least the State Government is finally taking note.
PS. Hanoi, I have reciprocal rights at your yacht club.
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...Sydney is getting a larger share of tourism, international trade and international investment because of capacity constraints on air travel into Melbourne that are within the control of Qantas.
The evidence for this is the loss of 500,000 seats per annum, according to SIA and Melbourne Airport.
Please note that this is about capacity not "38 airlines fly into Melbourne" etc. etc.
Of course it is in Qantas's interest to keep aircraft as full as possible since it improves the yield, but it is not in Victoria's interests if Business folk can't get here via direct flights.
The evidence for this is the loss of 500,000 seats per annum, according to SIA and Melbourne Airport.
Please note that this is about capacity not "38 airlines fly into Melbourne" etc. etc.
Of course it is in Qantas's interest to keep aircraft as full as possible since it improves the yield, but it is not in Victoria's interests if Business folk can't get here via direct flights.
Of course in a free market, such tightness of supply creates opportunities for rivals to enter the market with suitable competitive services, i.e. extra planeloads of seats LAX-MEL.
In a free market, that is...
Easy to bust the union , close Qantas and re-start it the next day call it Satnaq (remember Tesna) offer some people positions on the new terms if you dont like it leave. Plenty of jobs in the sandpit....
Maybe they could call it Starjet...............
Maybe they could call it Starjet...............
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It's simply normal how many of you are in denial about free markets. You are perfectly happy to consume the fruits of such markets - cheap Korean and Chinese appliances, Malaysian cars and so on, but of course when it comes to YOUR Industry, you decide that free trade is good for everybody else, but not for you.
A contemporary philosopher (and former Canadian oil-man and CEO) puts it thus...
"Take what are presented as natural economic forces. They can only exist to the extent that humans exist and therefore are not natural. The market in software would be surprisingly quiet if put in the hooves of sheep. Cattle have minimal interest in e-mail. Economic forces must take their appropriate place as the dependents of humans; more precisely, as dependent upon human characteristics in order to be shaped appropriately to our circumstances. And those human characteristics are themselves inferior to and shaped by human qualities.
"What history tells us is that economics - commercial activity, production, trade - usually falls in importance about halfway down the list of human activities, far off the radar screen of our desire for society. So the complexity of shared knowledge reminds us that, if one globalisation model claims to be the voice of inevitable forces, a dozen other models will appear which don't."
(John Ralston-Saul, Chapter 2, pp 21-22, On Equilibrium, 2001, Penguin, ISBN 0 14 023914 0)
Former Canadian oil company CEO! "E tu, Brute?"
How is this connected with Pprune and this discussion?
Sunfish, most of the people you are addressing here have a basic technical qualification. You recognise that, we are trained as pilots.
The bit you don't seem to understand is that even though most pilots could not spell it, there is a metaphysical aspect to being an effective GA or airline pilot.
That is, the ability to imagine. The ability to put together unconnected facts in an imaginative and non-linear way, based on shared knowledge and intuition, to look into the future... "don't take your airplane somewhere your brain didn't go five minutes before."
There is also in most pilots a strong sense of serving society. Sure, many say "the pax are safe because my @arse is strapped in this tube too!" but there is in most, if not all, the pilots I fly with, a sense of responsibility, a sense of imagining the other, a sense of their role in society, that places their belief in the need for their skills above 'economic necessity'. We resist limiting our store of airmanship and professional knowledge on the basis of 'risk management.'
There is a strong sense that in a crisis, they are obliged to do all that is humanly possible to deliver our pax safely back to earth. Possibly at the cost of our own lives; a concept that cannot be adequately explained under the heading of self-interest.
That is why we admire Capt Al Haines (Souix City) rather than Geoff Dixon and Mr Ryan.
You scold us for pursuing the good life via cheap Korean imports et al.
All you did for me when you made that statement was confirm my appraisal that you lacked imagination, and really don't understand what a lot of the pilots on here are talking about.
Human experience is not summarised by Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. The only institutions that have taught that model since the 1950's are Schools of Management.
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Well said ITCZ.
Until you have looked out of a flight-deck window when your passengers ... in their hundreds...are beginning to file on to your aeroplane... and seen the families, mothers with babies and young children, old people going back to the mother country, suits, teenagers and young couples who have put their trust in your ability to handle anything that may crop up in the next X hours; then you have no real conception about what the job really entails.
Maybe Sunfish, when you reach for your next rant, you should remember that...
Until you have looked out of a flight-deck window when your passengers ... in their hundreds...are beginning to file on to your aeroplane... and seen the families, mothers with babies and young children, old people going back to the mother country, suits, teenagers and young couples who have put their trust in your ability to handle anything that may crop up in the next X hours; then you have no real conception about what the job really entails.
Maybe Sunfish, when you reach for your next rant, you should remember that...
ITCZ, Maslow was already way out when I did my MBA many years ago.
I agree about the metaphysics of the job, however, the "special pleading" I see here is no different than the stuff I've heard from other industries when I was part of the public service, and it is no different to the special pleading I myself made when the company I was running felt the blowtorch of international competition, in about 1990, either.
Believe me, you are far better off accepting the reality of cutthroat competition now, rather than remaining in denial, because the longer you hang on, the more abrupt and difficult the change will be. In my case I bit the bullet, downsized the company and went through the extraordinary expense and difficulty of getting a quality acreditation, and even then we only just scraped through.
I agree about the metaphysics of the job, however, the "special pleading" I see here is no different than the stuff I've heard from other industries when I was part of the public service, and it is no different to the special pleading I myself made when the company I was running felt the blowtorch of international competition, in about 1990, either.
Believe me, you are far better off accepting the reality of cutthroat competition now, rather than remaining in denial, because the longer you hang on, the more abrupt and difficult the change will be. In my case I bit the bullet, downsized the company and went through the extraordinary expense and difficulty of getting a quality acreditation, and even then we only just scraped through.
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Defintion of Tosser….Toss:er.. noun…person who feels the need to tell others that they belong to a Yacht club and have an MBA (along with about a billion others).
Has an indifference to others…
Is naïve enough to tell others that they were once a public servant as if that improves their credibility in some way.
Has an unwarranted and over inflated opinion of themselves and their ability to understand and solve problems.
Has an indifference to others…
Is naïve enough to tell others that they were once a public servant as if that improves their credibility in some way.
Has an unwarranted and over inflated opinion of themselves and their ability to understand and solve problems.
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Sunfish
Some of your more " constructive " comments ???
and...........
" I hope your new owners rip your guts out "
Are you telling us that Qantas has reduced its capacity into MEL by 500,000 seats per annum ?.
As you make so much noise about pax being forced to travel via SYD can you please tell us what destinations , on the Qantas network , can only be reached by involuntary routing via SYD. To help you we know that this does not include ....London or Frankfurt or Singapore or Hong Kong or Tokyo or Auckland or Wellington or Christchurch or Los Angeles or New York to name some. Naturally one would assume that , when looking at some places like Nadi / Noumea / Papeete / Port Moresby / Port Vila / Manila / Mumbai / Santiago / Sapporo / Nagoya / Osaka etc , you would recognise that it would not be viable to operate separate services to each of MEL and SYD.
BTW...the correct spelling is accreditation.
Some of your more " constructive " comments ???
" I hope your new owners rip your guts out "
Are you telling us that Qantas has reduced its capacity into MEL by 500,000 seats per annum ?.
As you make so much noise about pax being forced to travel via SYD can you please tell us what destinations , on the Qantas network , can only be reached by involuntary routing via SYD. To help you we know that this does not include ....London or Frankfurt or Singapore or Hong Kong or Tokyo or Auckland or Wellington or Christchurch or Los Angeles or New York to name some. Naturally one would assume that , when looking at some places like Nadi / Noumea / Papeete / Port Moresby / Port Vila / Manila / Mumbai / Santiago / Sapporo / Nagoya / Osaka etc , you would recognise that it would not be viable to operate separate services to each of MEL and SYD.
BTW...the correct spelling is accreditation.
At the moment QANTAS conditions are maintained by the unions, interesting to see what would happen if they were to "float". How low could management go before people start leaving, turnover costs become prohibitive and they no longer attract the type of applicant they want.
They don't have to match conditions on offer abroad, just keep thing at the point where the bother of moving isn't worth the extra money.
Virgin seem to be losing a few people to EK at the moment, and didn't take kindly to managements last EBA. Looks like the bottom was discovered and things need to improve.
Prehaps QF conditions will be found to be about right as they are in the current market for experienced jet pilots.
They don't have to match conditions on offer abroad, just keep thing at the point where the bother of moving isn't worth the extra money.
Virgin seem to be losing a few people to EK at the moment, and didn't take kindly to managements last EBA. Looks like the bottom was discovered and things need to improve.
Prehaps QF conditions will be found to be about right as they are in the current market for experienced jet pilots.
Beware the MBA.....Theories change and the current one in the states is hold on to your good employees, for they will be your salvation. It seems the head of aviation management in this country is firmly buried in the sand. It seems a real estate salesman job at the moment to convince the money men that QF is a good buy and the "Grab the Cash" mentality of the corporate elite as stated by Professor Roy Green of the MGSM, is well and truly alive. Another quote from that great philosopher, Geoff Dixon, "There is no better motivation than self-interest". They have their growth vehicle(Jet*), let them use it, the problem is the return is not there. APA will have a lot of work to do when they inherit this mess. For me, I'm off to see the world, There is a world out there you know. 
Quite correct Mr. Busdriver, and the large professional services firms are already counselling their employees about burnout and not working their backsides off.
However with respect, the argument still holds. Free markets are God at the moment and there is no evidence that they produce any harm and a lot of evidence that they produce much good, the shining example being the Australian economy at present.
Arguing against free markets is like micturating into the wind.
However with respect, the argument still holds. Free markets are God at the moment and there is no evidence that they produce any harm and a lot of evidence that they produce much good, the shining example being the Australian economy at present.
Arguing against free markets is like micturating into the wind.
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Free markets are God at the moment and there is no evidence that they produce any harm and a lot of evidence that they produce much good,
Free Market economies haven't lead to any wars, environmental disasters, or the widening gap between the advantaged and disadvantaged in nearly, well a few months now.
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Sunfish’s delusional theory of economics from the university of Bonnydoon states that a free market has never caused any negative effects.
Yeah right Gilligan and neither has religion.
Gilligan , who was your lecturer.....Rodney Adler
Yeah right Gilligan and neither has religion.
Gilligan , who was your lecturer.....Rodney Adler