QF S/O gripe site
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Heard on the grape vine....ie ,it's tr-e; before ExAnsett pilots joined QF , the sum total of CRM in there manuals was..." If any crew member is aware of any..blah,blah, blah.., he is to bring it to the attention of the captain".
AN Ex Ansett CRM intsructor put some colour in their paint box.
I "hear" that that were shown a copy of the Ansett CRM program and ran away with it claiming...."We have a new and radical idea, a "world's best practice" concept that will continue to show that we are the " world's best....blah,blah,blah".
If only they made the discovery before QF 1 at BangKok.
Sorry, that didn't happen.Did it?
AN Ex Ansett CRM intsructor put some colour in their paint box.
I "hear" that that were shown a copy of the Ansett CRM program and ran away with it claiming...."We have a new and radical idea, a "world's best practice" concept that will continue to show that we are the " world's best....blah,blah,blah".
If only they made the discovery before QF 1 at BangKok.
Sorry, that didn't happen.Did it?
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You heard wrong IT.
P.S. This was the same groundbreaking CRM that had an AN 747 landing without a nosewheel in Sydney?
See how easy it is to throw out mindless insults?
P.S. This was the same groundbreaking CRM that had an AN 747 landing without a nosewheel in Sydney?
See how easy it is to throw out mindless insults?
Last edited by The_Cutest_of_Borg; 9th Nov 2006 at 00:56.
We should all face fact, aviation is full of pricks and wierdo's. Some occupy the left hand seat, some occupy the right, some sit in the back, others are instructors, charter pilots, many of them are management or company owners and each has their own reason. We naturally back stab each other and cant wait for an oppurtunity to bring each other down, usually for own benefit. It doesnt seem to matter if you work for Qantas, Jetstar, Virgin Blue, Regionals or in GA, the assh&^es are everywhere and you will have to work with them at some stage. Frankly if you want to suceed grow a thick skin and learn to laugh it all off.
Gee some of these blokes are cutting off their noses in spite their faces as not all SO's are the cadet type. There are more than just a few of CX FO's, F18 pilots, wing commanders, Eastern/REX Captains FO's etc etc most of whom are quite humble about their background. Only a fool would think that a SO cannot contribute something to the crew.
IT that is not true. QF had internal CRM courses going in the 80's and onwards.
This whole thread says alot about how good Qantas' recruiting methods are doesn't it?!
IT that is not true. QF had internal CRM courses going in the 80's and onwards.
This whole thread says alot about how good Qantas' recruiting methods are doesn't it?!
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Perhaps some are born with an ego that outweighs their ability, and become angry when they are put in place by greater maturity and experience?
Perhaps some of those inhabiting positions of responsibility have grown an ego over their career that prohibits them from remembering what it was like to inhabit a lower rung?
There's always a different spin on a situation, and I can understand that the airline would prefer to have this information removed, so I dont blame them...
It doesnt mean I wouldn't have minded reading it
Perhaps some of those inhabiting positions of responsibility have grown an ego over their career that prohibits them from remembering what it was like to inhabit a lower rung?
There's always a different spin on a situation, and I can understand that the airline would prefer to have this information removed, so I dont blame them...
It doesnt mean I wouldn't have minded reading it
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[quote=The_Cutest_of_Borg;2953489]
P.S. This was the same groundbreaking CRM that had an AN 747 landing without a nosewheel in Sydney?
[quote]
Said event infact kicked off AN's CRM program properly. After this event CRM at AN took a turn for the best, and those who were involved post this event will know that AN's CRM program was groundbreaking. Many things came out of this. It was AN's attempt to rush the 747 program that led to the massive holes that resulted, it worries me that other operators in Oz are quick to forget the lessons of the past. Rushing implementation of a new type is playing with fire. Back to the point, much of QFs operational culture has traces from AN.
P.S. This was the same groundbreaking CRM that had an AN 747 landing without a nosewheel in Sydney?
[quote]
Said event infact kicked off AN's CRM program properly. After this event CRM at AN took a turn for the best, and those who were involved post this event will know that AN's CRM program was groundbreaking. Many things came out of this. It was AN's attempt to rush the 747 program that led to the massive holes that resulted, it worries me that other operators in Oz are quick to forget the lessons of the past. Rushing implementation of a new type is playing with fire. Back to the point, much of QFs operational culture has traces from AN.
I'm already missing that website - was one of the best laughs I had in ages!
How am I sposed to know whether to take my bloody jacket to work today or not!
On a serious note, it was interesting that for every negative comment made about certain captains, someone generally had something positive to add (of course there are a few obvious exceptions!).
I read a couple of them thinking "that's bollocks, he was great to fly with, easy to get along with etc". Just goes to show that in most cases it was all about personality clashes between certain individuals rather than some bloke being and out-and-out w*nker.
TL
How am I sposed to know whether to take my bloody jacket to work today or not!
On a serious note, it was interesting that for every negative comment made about certain captains, someone generally had something positive to add (of course there are a few obvious exceptions!).
I read a couple of them thinking "that's bollocks, he was great to fly with, easy to get along with etc". Just goes to show that in most cases it was all about personality clashes between certain individuals rather than some bloke being and out-and-out w*nker.
TL
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TL - you are right - sometimes you get along great with guys who are regarded as odd....
....but by gees there are some weird nutters in QF....cant use ACARS - it costs to much......you came back from your break 1 minute late......wheres your jacket.......please spend the next 60 minutes justifying your fuel order.......the random middle of the night pop quiz.....
Some very very sad individuals, I thought the website was great (free speech and all that)- some of these guys (Capt/F/O/S/O) need a reality check.
....but by gees there are some weird nutters in QF....cant use ACARS - it costs to much......you came back from your break 1 minute late......wheres your jacket.......please spend the next 60 minutes justifying your fuel order.......the random middle of the night pop quiz.....
Some very very sad individuals, I thought the website was great (free speech and all that)- some of these guys (Capt/F/O/S/O) need a reality check.
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I am very dissapointed that I didn't get to see this web site.
It would be very interesting to compare notes to see if the same Captains that S/Os object to are on my F.U.A.D list
It would be very interesting to compare notes to see if the same Captains that S/Os object to are on my F.U.A.D list
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Yeah I'm disappointed I didn't see it too. However, can I be so bold as to say that I believe the DCP made a gregarious blunder in sending out his letter to all 2300 or so QF pilots? All they've done is talk about it and who may have been mentioned non-stop ever since! All the company had to do was approach the website owners accompanied by a company lawyer and it would've been taken down in no time at all, without fanfare (as I believe actual names were mentioned, it could probably fall squarely into the libel bag).
On the general topic of d#$*head captains, f/os and s/os, no rank is perfect. My experience in flying with all QF ranks is that 90% of the guys are fine, maybe 8% of them are a bit odd, and perhaps 2% test the bounds of my tolerance (which are actually very, very wide). The only difference with a Captain falling into the latter category, is that unfortunately he is running the show and that can lead to or exacerbate other problems.
TL is absolutely right. In the majority of cases I've observed or heard about, it seems to be a straightforward personality conflict.
On the general topic of d#$*head captains, f/os and s/os, no rank is perfect. My experience in flying with all QF ranks is that 90% of the guys are fine, maybe 8% of them are a bit odd, and perhaps 2% test the bounds of my tolerance (which are actually very, very wide). The only difference with a Captain falling into the latter category, is that unfortunately he is running the show and that can lead to or exacerbate other problems.
TL is absolutely right. In the majority of cases I've observed or heard about, it seems to be a straightforward personality conflict.
Nunc est bibendum
IT is actually partly right.....and also partly wrong.
There was a time when the sum total of the CRM chapter in the QF FAM was 'Captains are expected to utilise all aspects of CRM in the operation of QF aircraft'- or words similar to that. This was about a decade ago. The training was considered to be about 'industry average' at the time according to my research in the area. It did decline towards the end of the '90s until QF1 and the subsequent audits started to bring it toward sharper focus. Beginning with Mike Hawke the standard of training and the content improved dramatically although I did lament to Mike on a number of occasions that if we wanted to do CRM properly- rather than just the token effort we (as required by CASA) devoted to it- that it would take about double the time (6-8 hours instead of 3) and probably smaller groups and therefore more facilitators. The budget never stretched that far- and that was never Mike's fault because I know he pushed hard for the CRM department. We also lamented at the time about the lack of teeth to CRM in the FAM and John Capaldi (the ex RAAF and AN crew member that ITalludes to) was the man on the spot to beef up the FAM in that area. We now have a policy that articulates more clearly the obligations placed on both senior and junior crew and give the subordinate crew something to shove in the senior persons face (be they another S/O, F/O or skipper) if they ark up at the subordinate speaking up. That said, it only articulates what the expectation had always been- as stressed through previous recurrent CRM courses, simulators, initial CRM courses and so on. It also articulates what I had (mostly) experienced when working QF flight decks over the years. Ninety percent of guys got it and didn't need the policy and it was just there so that we had something to 'fight back' with for the 10 percent that didn't.
I still lament that we don't have the budget to extend to a more in depth CRM course. There are certainly better courses out there but they 'cost' and it isn't cheap. We'd be looking at two CRM facilitators a day instead of one and we'd be looking at the 6-8 hours rather than 3. I can see the 'value' in them. Unfortunately they are VERY confronting courses and they would likely create some degree of angst with some crew. Given the increased cost I'm not suprised that others wouldn't see the value in them at all- especially given that I know of some who seen no value in the 'cost' of CRM courses as it stands currently.
There was a time when the sum total of the CRM chapter in the QF FAM was 'Captains are expected to utilise all aspects of CRM in the operation of QF aircraft'- or words similar to that. This was about a decade ago. The training was considered to be about 'industry average' at the time according to my research in the area. It did decline towards the end of the '90s until QF1 and the subsequent audits started to bring it toward sharper focus. Beginning with Mike Hawke the standard of training and the content improved dramatically although I did lament to Mike on a number of occasions that if we wanted to do CRM properly- rather than just the token effort we (as required by CASA) devoted to it- that it would take about double the time (6-8 hours instead of 3) and probably smaller groups and therefore more facilitators. The budget never stretched that far- and that was never Mike's fault because I know he pushed hard for the CRM department. We also lamented at the time about the lack of teeth to CRM in the FAM and John Capaldi (the ex RAAF and AN crew member that ITalludes to) was the man on the spot to beef up the FAM in that area. We now have a policy that articulates more clearly the obligations placed on both senior and junior crew and give the subordinate crew something to shove in the senior persons face (be they another S/O, F/O or skipper) if they ark up at the subordinate speaking up. That said, it only articulates what the expectation had always been- as stressed through previous recurrent CRM courses, simulators, initial CRM courses and so on. It also articulates what I had (mostly) experienced when working QF flight decks over the years. Ninety percent of guys got it and didn't need the policy and it was just there so that we had something to 'fight back' with for the 10 percent that didn't.
I still lament that we don't have the budget to extend to a more in depth CRM course. There are certainly better courses out there but they 'cost' and it isn't cheap. We'd be looking at two CRM facilitators a day instead of one and we'd be looking at the 6-8 hours rather than 3. I can see the 'value' in them. Unfortunately they are VERY confronting courses and they would likely create some degree of angst with some crew. Given the increased cost I'm not suprised that others wouldn't see the value in them at all- especially given that I know of some who seen no value in the 'cost' of CRM courses as it stands currently.
Last edited by Keg; 10th Nov 2006 at 05:28.
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Good posting Keg but if I may add to this, CX has/had a few tyrants similar to QF over the years.
The Deputy Chief Pilot of Qantas is right in some respects, but fails to recognise that in the real world respect is earned, not demanded.
He seems to come from an era (probably an ex cadet) where S/O's were mistreated and had little respect from what were probably ex WWII drivers that did it tough so to speak.
To make comments about not standing next to one of these contributors seems tantamount to the fact that some of his minions fail to practice CRM at all...........and how dare they use their ingenuity to share their experiences with other S/O's !!
You just cant force CRM down the throats of some of these guys and all management knows it only so well.
I hate to disappoint the QF Deputy Chief, but things have changed since the 60's/70's.
There are more opportunities and avenues available to vent their grief and frustration thanks to modern technology.
If I had a problem I would always speak my mind and make my opnion known.
A beer with the relevant crew member was a good way to discuss things but if I got no joy I would talk to the relevant fleet/training pilot that would give advice and counsel.
That way all parties are aware of what is happening.
In my opinion, if the DCP of QF was an effective manager he would be trying to listen to these S/O's as to what is really happening at the coal face and sort out some of these well known problems rather than expressing his disgust and outrage.
If they fostered an open door policy without the stigma of being labelled a whinger then maybe it would never have come to this.
"How dare a Qantas pilot complain about mistreatment!!! In my day we just took it like a real man and went for a beer...."
The last thing that makes me think twice about this supposed "letter of outrage" is why the DCP is writing this letter rather than the Chief Pilot himself?
Care to comment?
The Deputy Chief Pilot of Qantas is right in some respects, but fails to recognise that in the real world respect is earned, not demanded.
He seems to come from an era (probably an ex cadet) where S/O's were mistreated and had little respect from what were probably ex WWII drivers that did it tough so to speak.
To make comments about not standing next to one of these contributors seems tantamount to the fact that some of his minions fail to practice CRM at all...........and how dare they use their ingenuity to share their experiences with other S/O's !!
You just cant force CRM down the throats of some of these guys and all management knows it only so well.
I hate to disappoint the QF Deputy Chief, but things have changed since the 60's/70's.
There are more opportunities and avenues available to vent their grief and frustration thanks to modern technology.
If I had a problem I would always speak my mind and make my opnion known.
A beer with the relevant crew member was a good way to discuss things but if I got no joy I would talk to the relevant fleet/training pilot that would give advice and counsel.
That way all parties are aware of what is happening.
In my opinion, if the DCP of QF was an effective manager he would be trying to listen to these S/O's as to what is really happening at the coal face and sort out some of these well known problems rather than expressing his disgust and outrage.
If they fostered an open door policy without the stigma of being labelled a whinger then maybe it would never have come to this.
"How dare a Qantas pilot complain about mistreatment!!! In my day we just took it like a real man and went for a beer...."
The last thing that makes me think twice about this supposed "letter of outrage" is why the DCP is writing this letter rather than the Chief Pilot himself?
Care to comment?
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Spot the Difference
The contrast between the approaches of the Chief of Army and the QF DCP to online comment by their subordinates is quite stark.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/nation...851184506.html
The CA intervened to keep access to the site avilable at work and values the input the soldiers make online. Whereas, the QF DCP in effect demanded the offending site be closed down and questioned the integrity of those who created and used it.
To be fair, I haven't read the army gripe site nor the QF one, I doubt the army troops were directly commenting on the competence or personality of their officers.
In this information age I suspect that as one such site is closed down another will pop up. Just ask the music industry how successful that approach is.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/nation...851184506.html
The CA intervened to keep access to the site avilable at work and values the input the soldiers make online. Whereas, the QF DCP in effect demanded the offending site be closed down and questioned the integrity of those who created and used it.
To be fair, I haven't read the army gripe site nor the QF one, I doubt the army troops were directly commenting on the competence or personality of their officers.
In this information age I suspect that as one such site is closed down another will pop up. Just ask the music industry how successful that approach is.
Nunc est bibendum
Ah yes, there have been a number of crew who have pointed out the contrasting manners of both CA and DCP. As Gary points out there is a significant difference between questioning the equipment you've got (and the capabilities of those who do the ordering) and directly commenting on immediate superiors.
However I think the correct response by QF should be to acknowledge a few home truths.
1. QF has captains that are obviously so far outside the 'norms' that the rest of us operate by that they are talked about. This web site was just a new way of doing this. Previous versions include the bar, the telephone, CRM days (no names normally though) and any other place where more than one pilot was present.
2. The fact that crew continue to use the grape vine and don't utilise the chain of command could indicate that many crew have little faith in the chain of command to either pay attention or do anything about it if it is used.
Having made those acknowledgements the correct responses would be to actually have a look at our crew who are outside the 'norms' and try and ensure that crew have confidence in the system they have to speak up about crew that are outside the norms.
I'd like to consider a letter to all crew in response to my colleagues to address some of the reasons why such a web site would exist to start off with. Unfortunately I feel that would put a very large target smack in the middle of my chest- larger and more difficult to hide than the small one which is already there which I do manage to hide most of the time. Perhaps is the most significant issue of all and highlights the different between the approach of people like CDF and CA compared with QF.
Perhaps it also says something that I'm very conscious that many in QF know who 'Keg' is and that even by posting this the target may have gotten bigger and harder to hide already. My crime is not so much in what I think but that I have the temerity to say it. Some would also consider it a state crime that I chose/choose to say it here and keep it all in house. For those that do think I've stepped over the line then you obviously weren't listening over the past few years when I have been saying stuff in house.
However I think the correct response by QF should be to acknowledge a few home truths.
1. QF has captains that are obviously so far outside the 'norms' that the rest of us operate by that they are talked about. This web site was just a new way of doing this. Previous versions include the bar, the telephone, CRM days (no names normally though) and any other place where more than one pilot was present.
2. The fact that crew continue to use the grape vine and don't utilise the chain of command could indicate that many crew have little faith in the chain of command to either pay attention or do anything about it if it is used.
Having made those acknowledgements the correct responses would be to actually have a look at our crew who are outside the 'norms' and try and ensure that crew have confidence in the system they have to speak up about crew that are outside the norms.
I'd like to consider a letter to all crew in response to my colleagues to address some of the reasons why such a web site would exist to start off with. Unfortunately I feel that would put a very large target smack in the middle of my chest- larger and more difficult to hide than the small one which is already there which I do manage to hide most of the time. Perhaps is the most significant issue of all and highlights the different between the approach of people like CDF and CA compared with QF.
Perhaps it also says something that I'm very conscious that many in QF know who 'Keg' is and that even by posting this the target may have gotten bigger and harder to hide already. My crime is not so much in what I think but that I have the temerity to say it. Some would also consider it a state crime that I chose/choose to say it here and keep it all in house. For those that do think I've stepped over the line then you obviously weren't listening over the past few years when I have been saying stuff in house.
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It is interesting to hear the reaction of QF to a discussion site/forum for employees.
First of all it is interesting that your DCP can 'have a bet each way' by saying that his communication was about a personally held opinion, not as DCP.
Though they might not be able to articulate it, most of his colleagues/employees would recognise that there are very few people in this world that can effectively separate their person opinions and beliefs impacting on their official roles. Maybe he is one of the few that can, but he is still the DCP and apart from the very courageous, who would want to put themselves on his bad side?
The lads and lasses at national joke have had their own mini-pprune running for almost two years, driven by the equipment change to 717 and the learning/operational challenges and the industrial/lifestyle/people management issues that resulted. Their management are aware of it, and are very wary of it because they dont have access to it, but accept that it is there. The top man at flight ops even begrudgingly admitted that it probably does the company good service because it keeps a lot of whinging and rubbishing off Pprune!
The conundrum with professional aviation is that it is seen from outside as a high-tech industry, but once inside it has operational cultures that disappeared from other industries a long long time ago. It is very hierarchical, very change resistant, favours seniority and minimum performance standards against merit, high achievement and talent, and ties itself up in SOP, , three levels of legislation, bidding rules, rostering rules, promotions protocols etc. Not surprising when it borrowed the core of its cultures from maritime traditions and the average australian ATPL is 45 and apart from pulling beers as a wannabe, has spent most of their working life in aviation.
It must be very confronting for people that 'played the game' of seniority, waiting your turn and biting your tongue to now see a new generation of tech savvy 'kids' creating virtual 'pubs' to get together and have a bitch.
Whether it is a website, a blog, a crew bar in Thailand or coffee at the Ettro in King Street, these SO's have been doing what junior officers have been doing for centuries. I am told that the Royal Navy even has a tradition dating back from before Trafalgar - it is poor form for a Captain to enter his ships' officers wardroom. Crew need to let off steam and will bitch and moan and criticise the captain. Interestingly, it is often the place where the junior learns of a few more wrinkles about the job that he/she had not considered.
For any captain of any 'ship' to bark about whispers from junior officers is getting just a bit precious. It is part of the territory and was that way for years before you came into the job; if you feel offended, just count the stripes on your shoulders and take another look at the pay packet.
The first step in effective CRM, hell in anything, is accepting that you might not be the perfect captain/crew member/human being. An airline company that puts three or four bars on your shoulders is not the Queen tapping you on those shoulders with the Royal sword knighting you. It is a commercial operation putting you into a particular job. Prohibiting dissent and criticism will be as effective as the US prohibition of alcohol in the 1920's... it wont work, so build a bridge and get over it!!
First of all it is interesting that your DCP can 'have a bet each way' by saying that his communication was about a personally held opinion, not as DCP.
Though they might not be able to articulate it, most of his colleagues/employees would recognise that there are very few people in this world that can effectively separate their person opinions and beliefs impacting on their official roles. Maybe he is one of the few that can, but he is still the DCP and apart from the very courageous, who would want to put themselves on his bad side?
The lads and lasses at national joke have had their own mini-pprune running for almost two years, driven by the equipment change to 717 and the learning/operational challenges and the industrial/lifestyle/people management issues that resulted. Their management are aware of it, and are very wary of it because they dont have access to it, but accept that it is there. The top man at flight ops even begrudgingly admitted that it probably does the company good service because it keeps a lot of whinging and rubbishing off Pprune!
The conundrum with professional aviation is that it is seen from outside as a high-tech industry, but once inside it has operational cultures that disappeared from other industries a long long time ago. It is very hierarchical, very change resistant, favours seniority and minimum performance standards against merit, high achievement and talent, and ties itself up in SOP, , three levels of legislation, bidding rules, rostering rules, promotions protocols etc. Not surprising when it borrowed the core of its cultures from maritime traditions and the average australian ATPL is 45 and apart from pulling beers as a wannabe, has spent most of their working life in aviation.
It must be very confronting for people that 'played the game' of seniority, waiting your turn and biting your tongue to now see a new generation of tech savvy 'kids' creating virtual 'pubs' to get together and have a bitch.
Whether it is a website, a blog, a crew bar in Thailand or coffee at the Ettro in King Street, these SO's have been doing what junior officers have been doing for centuries. I am told that the Royal Navy even has a tradition dating back from before Trafalgar - it is poor form for a Captain to enter his ships' officers wardroom. Crew need to let off steam and will bitch and moan and criticise the captain. Interestingly, it is often the place where the junior learns of a few more wrinkles about the job that he/she had not considered.
For any captain of any 'ship' to bark about whispers from junior officers is getting just a bit precious. It is part of the territory and was that way for years before you came into the job; if you feel offended, just count the stripes on your shoulders and take another look at the pay packet.
The first step in effective CRM, hell in anything, is accepting that you might not be the perfect captain/crew member/human being. An airline company that puts three or four bars on your shoulders is not the Queen tapping you on those shoulders with the Royal sword knighting you. It is a commercial operation putting you into a particular job. Prohibiting dissent and criticism will be as effective as the US prohibition of alcohol in the 1920's... it wont work, so build a bridge and get over it!!
Last edited by ITCZ; 17th Nov 2006 at 23:36.
Two words. FRAGILE. EGOS.
e‧go /ˈigoʊ, ˈɛgoʊ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ee-goh, eg-oh]
–noun, plural e‧gos.
1. the “I” or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought.
2. Psychoanalysis. the part of the psychic apparatus that experiences and reacts to the outside world and thus mediates between the primitive drives of the id and the demands of the social and physical environment.
3. egotism; conceit; self-importance: Her ego becomes more unbearable each day.
4. self-esteem or self-image; feelings: Your criticism wounded his ego.
5. (often initial capital letter) Philosophy.
a. the enduring and conscious element that knows experience.
b. Scholasticism. the complete person comprising both body and soul.
6. Ethnology. a person who serves as the central reference point in the study of organizational and kinship relationships.
[Origin: 1780–90; < L: I; psychoanalytic term is trans. of G (das) Ich (the) I]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
–noun, plural e‧gos.
1. the “I” or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought.
2. Psychoanalysis. the part of the psychic apparatus that experiences and reacts to the outside world and thus mediates between the primitive drives of the id and the demands of the social and physical environment.
3. egotism; conceit; self-importance: Her ego becomes more unbearable each day.
4. self-esteem or self-image; feelings: Your criticism wounded his ego.
5. (often initial capital letter) Philosophy.
a. the enduring and conscious element that knows experience.
b. Scholasticism. the complete person comprising both body and soul.
6. Ethnology. a person who serves as the central reference point in the study of organizational and kinship relationships.
[Origin: 1780–90; < L: I; psychoanalytic term is trans. of G (das) Ich (the) I]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
Grandpa Aerotart
What else would you expect from a group who sat around at an ops meeting for the A380 and seriously debated whether they should wear 5 gold bars
I am reliably informed this actually happened
I am reliably informed this actually happened
Sure - I bet they decided to do that; after all, why stick with decades of tradition...?
I call BULLSH!T on that one Chuck.
I call BULLSH!T on that one Chuck.
Grandpa Aerotart
Possibly.
It was apparently an adgenda item for a meeting.
My reaction was "NO WAY you gotta be ****ting me"
...but he was adamant.
They already have scambled eggs, 4 bars and a star after all
It was apparently an adgenda item for a meeting.
My reaction was "NO WAY you gotta be ****ting me"
...but he was adamant.They already have scambled eggs, 4 bars and a star after all
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Hong Kong
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Have been reading through this thread and thought i would add my 2 cents.
A few years ago my best mate got into QF.... at the same time i got into CX. Needless to say we were both very happy. I was more then happy to move overseas as i had already spent a lot of time outside of Oz (PNG), however i did get a lot of S hit from my best mate. Most of it was because i was to potentially spend the rest of my career based outside of Australia.
What a difference a few years makes! Now as an FO and only 4 years to a command, I'm spending as much (if not more) time in Oz then he does as an SO. He is still 3-4 years from an upgrade and miserable....
My question to all those still in Oz.... why persist with an industry (albeit in a beautiful country) that is completely
?
This is not a QF versus CX post..... there are many great places to work within the region. My point is.... don't be closed minded, QF is not a career airline anymore. there are other options
A few years ago my best mate got into QF.... at the same time i got into CX. Needless to say we were both very happy. I was more then happy to move overseas as i had already spent a lot of time outside of Oz (PNG), however i did get a lot of S hit from my best mate. Most of it was because i was to potentially spend the rest of my career based outside of Australia.
What a difference a few years makes! Now as an FO and only 4 years to a command, I'm spending as much (if not more) time in Oz then he does as an SO. He is still 3-4 years from an upgrade and miserable....
My question to all those still in Oz.... why persist with an industry (albeit in a beautiful country) that is completely
? This is not a QF versus CX post..... there are many great places to work within the region. My point is.... don't be closed minded, QF is not a career airline anymore. there are other options