QF S/O gripe site
Nunc est bibendum
I may bag QF when I reckon they deserve it but I'll stand up for them when they cop flack for stuff that they don't deserve.
Chimbu, Johnny is right on this one. Your story is a distortion of the reality. A couple of very tongue in cheek comments. I can give you a few more that have bandied around the place.
The captain won't actually do the driving on approach but sit behind the F/O and S/O and just make the decisions a la the Starship Enterprise. (That's actually something worthy of further discussion for future airliner development IMHO)
Crews will be issued two uniforms to fly it. One they wear on to/from the aircraft and the other they wear on board. This is due to the length of sectors and so on. The onboard uniform consists of a screen printed tie, wings, gold bars and even a red square where we can have our photo screen printed in as the ID. A mate had them made up and I have one sitting in my cupboard at the moment. I even wear it on board.
Pretty easy to spin that second one in a negative way but it's all come about from some very tongue in cheek comments between me and my crash buddy during 744 conversion. (I actually use the t-shirt as a laugh as my 'crew rest' top to avoid having my work shirt look like crap when I get off the aircraft!)
The captain won't actually do the driving on approach but sit behind the F/O and S/O and just make the decisions a la the Starship Enterprise. (That's actually something worthy of further discussion for future airliner development IMHO)
Crews will be issued two uniforms to fly it. One they wear on to/from the aircraft and the other they wear on board. This is due to the length of sectors and so on. The onboard uniform consists of a screen printed tie, wings, gold bars and even a red square where we can have our photo screen printed in as the ID. A mate had them made up and I have one sitting in my cupboard at the moment. I even wear it on board.
Pretty easy to spin that second one in a negative way but it's all come about from some very tongue in cheek comments between me and my crash buddy during 744 conversion. (I actually use the t-shirt as a laugh as my 'crew rest' top to avoid having my work shirt look like crap when I get off the aircraft!)
The idea of the captain sitting behind the crew aka Submarine style is something that is being seriously bantied around academic circles. There is a school of thought suggesting that the captain should be monitoring the machine whilst the crew then does the "stick and rudder" side of things.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: SE Aus
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This concept is already in place in RAF Maritime operations on the Nimrod I believe. "Mission Commander" so to speak is a Taco (Navigator) type who sits down the back amongst the crew. Front end guys drive. Very simple and effective apparently.
When the flying side of things gets very busy, it allows the Commander to remain somewhat "Head Free" and make bigger picture decisions without the load of keeping the aircraft under control.
Of course there will be arguments about the applicability of such a concept to civil airline operations. I'm not suggesting that it is directly transferrable, but the concept is probably valid in principle with some modification.
I reckon the reason it is done this way is because the Maritime crew frequently experience much higher workloads than the typical airline crew flying 12 hours from A to B. Most of the time, it works fine that the airline Captain is in the LHS but what about when the sh*t hits the fan and workload is immense? Probably more effective discharging one's statutory responsibilities as a Commander from somewhere other than the front seats...
The other obvious factor is that many military operations have >2 pilots anyway, so there is always a spare (copilot) who could sit in the front seat. With many airline operations manned by two pilots, this discussion is a waste of time. And carrying an extra for this purpose would be deemed both too expensive and impractical on smaller flightdecks.
VI
When the flying side of things gets very busy, it allows the Commander to remain somewhat "Head Free" and make bigger picture decisions without the load of keeping the aircraft under control.
Of course there will be arguments about the applicability of such a concept to civil airline operations. I'm not suggesting that it is directly transferrable, but the concept is probably valid in principle with some modification.
I reckon the reason it is done this way is because the Maritime crew frequently experience much higher workloads than the typical airline crew flying 12 hours from A to B. Most of the time, it works fine that the airline Captain is in the LHS but what about when the sh*t hits the fan and workload is immense? Probably more effective discharging one's statutory responsibilities as a Commander from somewhere other than the front seats...
The other obvious factor is that many military operations have >2 pilots anyway, so there is always a spare (copilot) who could sit in the front seat. With many airline operations manned by two pilots, this discussion is a waste of time. And carrying an extra for this purpose would be deemed both too expensive and impractical on smaller flightdecks.
VI
Grandpa Aerotart
Keg I had thought it was as you suggested...a tongue in cheek joke that got out of hand...but then agan
And this is a rumour network
As to the captain sitting back from the front as in Star Trek?
Long way off yet methinks...another not in my life time deal that I'll not waste any time worrying over...how it quite fits with the reality of day to day airliner ops and the MPL is an interesting thought experiment for those 'acedemics' who never leave their closeted surrounds.
I would think that there is a vaste difference between 'mission' commander and aircraft commander in the P3 style mil ops. I would suggest when ****s are trumps the mission commander sits on his hands and lets the aircraft commander get on with it.
And this is a rumour network
As to the captain sitting back from the front as in Star Trek?
Long way off yet methinks...another not in my life time deal that I'll not waste any time worrying over...how it quite fits with the reality of day to day airliner ops and the MPL is an interesting thought experiment for those 'acedemics' who never leave their closeted surrounds.
I would think that there is a vaste difference between 'mission' commander and aircraft commander in the P3 style mil ops. I would suggest when ****s are trumps the mission commander sits on his hands and lets the aircraft commander get on with it.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 331
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah yes. No doubt it is the ACADEMIC circles discussing the idea of seating the Captain behind while the junior pilots fly the CAT 3 approach into a pea-souper, or the night approach with horizontal rain, a 25 kt crosswind, cloud at minima and a wet runway awaiting. Oh, and chuck in a thrust reverser locked out as well, and a speed brake that fails to extend when it should, just for a bit of a challenge. Yep, academic circles it would be, because circles comprising REAL PILOTS would never entertain or discuss such drivel.....
Not so Chimbu. There are academic papers and magazine articles at present which are arguing for the complete opposite to what you are saying. Captain sits there monitoring the single engine ILS to the minima, whilst FO Bloggs who has just graduated from his MPL course, flys the thing.
The idea has some merit if both crew members are experienced, however if you start looking at bare minimum time FO's flying an emergency proceedure, I don't think it's good idea.
The idea has some merit if both crew members are experienced, however if you start looking at bare minimum time FO's flying an emergency proceedure, I don't think it's good idea.
Grandpa Aerotart
Appologies for thread creep.
Now you're talking a different thing altogether. Monitored approaches to Cat 1 minimas.
I agree they are already in fairly widespread use and they are a very good idea.
The FO is PF (from some point before the FAF) during a fully coupled ILS and the Captain goes head up 100' above the minima. This allows him to evaluate vis cues that may be present before the minima. The FO is heads down all the way and calls "100' above" and "minima". If they are not visual at the minima, or if the captain is unhappy about anything else, the captain calls "Go around" and the FO carries out a fully automatic GA. If the captain is happy he calls "I have control" and lands the aircraft. If the captain is only reasonably happy he might call "Continue" and the FO continues to fly a head down coupled ILS until he hears "I have control" or "Go around".
It works very well...but is a dramatically different thing to the captain 'managing' things from the jumpseat.
Now you're talking a different thing altogether. Monitored approaches to Cat 1 minimas.
I agree they are already in fairly widespread use and they are a very good idea.
The FO is PF (from some point before the FAF) during a fully coupled ILS and the Captain goes head up 100' above the minima. This allows him to evaluate vis cues that may be present before the minima. The FO is heads down all the way and calls "100' above" and "minima". If they are not visual at the minima, or if the captain is unhappy about anything else, the captain calls "Go around" and the FO carries out a fully automatic GA. If the captain is happy he calls "I have control" and lands the aircraft. If the captain is only reasonably happy he might call "Continue" and the FO continues to fly a head down coupled ILS until he hears "I have control" or "Go around".
It works very well...but is a dramatically different thing to the captain 'managing' things from the jumpseat.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 811
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rubbish Ron!! The autopilot will be doing it all anyway! You won't need so-called 'real pilots' in the future...
Back to the gripe site though, don't forget that the site was open to ANYONE. Bar talk has a small, known, like-minded audience. Whereas the net has the media, the passengers, family and management - all of whom generally don't have access to the grapevine.
Back to the gripe site though, don't forget that the site was open to ANYONE. Bar talk has a small, known, like-minded audience. Whereas the net has the media, the passengers, family and management - all of whom generally don't have access to the grapevine.
Geez what next?
F/O's gripe site?
F/E's gripe site? But engineers have got a thick head.....sorry skin!
And of course a Captains gripe site?
There are tossers everywhere.
The Captains club certainly doesn't have the patent on that!
F/O's gripe site?
F/E's gripe site? But engineers have got a thick head.....sorry skin!
And of course a Captains gripe site?
There are tossers everywhere.
The Captains club certainly doesn't have the patent on that!
Nunc est bibendum
And sorry for the thread drift....my fault!
