Class C radar direction
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La Guardia is no different. We were cleared in by the Freeway Visual from Bermuda, not long ago. The finals might look long...remember most of the traffic is coming in from Europe!
Anyway, I've got to go and meet with a new tenant on one of my apartments, fix my kids minibike that he blew up and file some tax paper work then come back and finish an expense report. I'll talk to you all in a few days.
Anyway, I've got to go and meet with a new tenant on one of my apartments, fix my kids minibike that he blew up and file some tax paper work then come back and finish an expense report. I'll talk to you all in a few days.
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Look fellas, if I didn't have to go do a 6 month recurrency on my new G550 in Dallas, get the VGS adjusted, visit with Roger Sperry, then pop on down to pick up the family in Mustique and on to the Villa in Bellagio I'd join in the debate. But then I have to go down to Milan to select the fabrics for the spa resort reno in the Maldives and be back in Oz in time for Chrissy with the folks.
So I'll talk to you all in a few days.
So I'll talk to you all in a few days.
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Look fellas, if I didn't have to go do a 6 month recurrency on my new G550 in Dallas, get the VGS adjusted, visit with Roger Sperry, then pop on down to pick up the family in Mustique and on to the Villa in Bellagio I'd join in the debate. But then I have to go down to Milan to select the fabrics for the spa resort reno in the Maldives and be back in Oz in time for Chrissy with the folks.
So I'll talk to you all in a few days.
So I'll talk to you all in a few days.
Swing by here too Gaunty! It's starting to snow and if it stays cold we can go skiing mate!!
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Alright, I'll call a personal truce here if you guys can remain civil in kind.
Something also has to be done about the antagonistic culture that has now become part of being an Australian controller. The apology sticky on the top of the Dunnunder Godzone is indicative of a pervasive behaviour that we have seen on these boards for several years now
Antagonistic? Arrogant? Have you got a mirror in one of your Caribbean beach houses mate?
Your bragging shows just how insecure you are that your arguments cannot stand on their own merit - but require the embelishment of trotting out your CV of experience and personal treasures with every post as if to proclaim: "I am right - you are all wrong because I have more toys". To coin an oft touted phrase of late - it's Un-Australian. More importantly, it makes them even less convincing.
I really wonder what they made of you when you went to the TRACON and told them all how to do it - yes, you sure do remind me of someone.
Anyhow, I have got to go change the oil and plugs on my "Kingswood", and check on my "Coopers" home brew before I mount my 1979 "Malvern Star" for a quick peddle down to the milk bar to get some "tally-ho's".
I might not be back for a week. In the meanwhile, why not see just how well the US system really works: http://www.avoiddelays.com/
Or perhaps you can absorb your quivering anticipation of my return with some research:
NEW YORK (AP) -- Getting out of New York is never easy, but no one has been having a tougher time leaving the city's gravitational pull lately than travelers on Comair.
Twenty-five of the nation's 50 most frequently delayed flights in September were Comair planes to or from Kennedy Airport, according to a monthly U.S. Transportation Department report.
The absolute worst? Comair Flight 5283.
The evening rush hour jet from JFK to Washington Reagan National Airport landed late 100 percent of the time in September.
Planes flying the route arrived an average of 79 minutes behind schedule, on a trip that involves less than an hour of flying time. Three of the 30 scheduled flights were canceled altogether.
The delays are blamed on several factors, including chronic congestion at New York's airports.
The delays made for a frustrating month for frequent fliers like Anthony Marcus, who was on three delayed Comair flights in September while traveling between New York and his home in Washington.
Marx blamed the airline's performance on steadily worsening congestion in the Northeast, where Comair flies an ambitious schedule on some of the most heavily trafficked routes.
This year, New York's three major airports are expected to handle a record 104 million passengers, up from 81.1 million in 2002, according to the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.
All three -- JFK, Newark Liberty International and LaGuardia -- already rank among the airports with the nation's worst on-time records, although their delays aren't quite as bad as those at Atlanta, Chicago and Philadelphia.
The Port Authority has warned that things may only get worse.
"Understand that this is the most congested airspace in the world," said spokesman Pasquale DiFulco. "We know growth is coming, and we only have so much airspace, and you can only fit so many planes in the sky."
At peak operation, JFK can handle a takeoff or landing every 45 seconds, but these days that is often not enough. On many weeknights, dozens of planes wait in hour-long lines for an available runway.
Flight 5283's taxi time at JFK averaged 73 minutes per trip in September. Thirteen of those oft-delayed flights actually left the gate on time or early, but still wound up waiting for as long as an hour and 42 minutes to take off.
And for all its troubles, Flight 5283 was only marginally worse than several other Delta Connection flights at JFK.
Coming in at No. 2 and No. 3 on the least-on-time list were weekday Comair flights from JFK to Atlanta and Buffalo, each of which was late more than 95 percent of the time. No. 4 was a Comair flight to JFK from Washington Reagan.
"It's like you're being held hostage," said Christine Perkins, a frequent Delta flier from Medford, Massachusetts, who recently suffered through a 2 1/2-hour delay at JFK while waiting for a Comair connecting flight to Boston. "These days, it seems like all you need are a couple drops of rain to cause a delay."
Twenty-five of the nation's 50 most frequently delayed flights in September were Comair planes to or from Kennedy Airport, according to a monthly U.S. Transportation Department report.
The absolute worst? Comair Flight 5283.
The evening rush hour jet from JFK to Washington Reagan National Airport landed late 100 percent of the time in September.
Planes flying the route arrived an average of 79 minutes behind schedule, on a trip that involves less than an hour of flying time. Three of the 30 scheduled flights were canceled altogether.
The delays are blamed on several factors, including chronic congestion at New York's airports.
The delays made for a frustrating month for frequent fliers like Anthony Marcus, who was on three delayed Comair flights in September while traveling between New York and his home in Washington.
Marx blamed the airline's performance on steadily worsening congestion in the Northeast, where Comair flies an ambitious schedule on some of the most heavily trafficked routes.
This year, New York's three major airports are expected to handle a record 104 million passengers, up from 81.1 million in 2002, according to the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.
All three -- JFK, Newark Liberty International and LaGuardia -- already rank among the airports with the nation's worst on-time records, although their delays aren't quite as bad as those at Atlanta, Chicago and Philadelphia.
The Port Authority has warned that things may only get worse.
"Understand that this is the most congested airspace in the world," said spokesman Pasquale DiFulco. "We know growth is coming, and we only have so much airspace, and you can only fit so many planes in the sky."
At peak operation, JFK can handle a takeoff or landing every 45 seconds, but these days that is often not enough. On many weeknights, dozens of planes wait in hour-long lines for an available runway.
Flight 5283's taxi time at JFK averaged 73 minutes per trip in September. Thirteen of those oft-delayed flights actually left the gate on time or early, but still wound up waiting for as long as an hour and 42 minutes to take off.
And for all its troubles, Flight 5283 was only marginally worse than several other Delta Connection flights at JFK.
Coming in at No. 2 and No. 3 on the least-on-time list were weekday Comair flights from JFK to Atlanta and Buffalo, each of which was late more than 95 percent of the time. No. 4 was a Comair flight to JFK from Washington Reagan.
"It's like you're being held hostage," said Christine Perkins, a frequent Delta flier from Medford, Massachusetts, who recently suffered through a 2 1/2-hour delay at JFK while waiting for a Comair connecting flight to Boston. "These days, it seems like all you need are a couple drops of rain to cause a delay."
FAA website:
Delays occur every day at every major U.S. airport. Schedules are made to reduce operating costs and maximize revenue without regard for other airlines, terminal airspace or airport capacity. At “peak” times, dozens of planes are simultaneously taxiing for take-off or queuing above the airport in a finite amount of terminal airspace. This is where the laws of physics kick in. Given runway capacity, only certain number of flights can depart and arrive within a specified time period. Therefore, scheduling during peak hours contributes to delays at busy airports even in good weather. All scheduled flights will not be able to arrive on time. Responsible scheduling of flights within airport capacity limits will go a long way toward alleviating delays. (My underlining)
Delays occur every day at every major U.S. airport. Schedules are made to reduce operating costs and maximize revenue without regard for other airlines, terminal airspace or airport capacity. At “peak” times, dozens of planes are simultaneously taxiing for take-off or queuing above the airport in a finite amount of terminal airspace. This is where the laws of physics kick in. Given runway capacity, only certain number of flights can depart and arrive within a specified time period. Therefore, scheduling during peak hours contributes to delays at busy airports even in good weather. All scheduled flights will not be able to arrive on time. Responsible scheduling of flights within airport capacity limits will go a long way toward alleviating delays. (My underlining)
Source: airguideonline.com
Ground Stop
Weather causes 75% of all delays. But this summer, many delays have been due simply to poor coordination between the FAA's regional air-traffic-control centers and to ham-handed recovery efforts after storms, say FAA managers and airline operations officials.
At times, regional centers unilaterally halt the flow of airplanes, often without even telling the central command center, the FAA says. Instead of employing less-restrictive delays, overloaded controllers have been quicker to order "ground stops" that leave planes loaded with passengers and parked without a scheduled departure time.
And frequently this summer, controllers seeking to better manage their growing workload have imposed 60-mile separation requirements between airplanes; five miles is the standard minimum separation for planes cruising at high altitudes.
"It's the FAA"
"Gridlock is not a problem for the future -- it is happening now, today, as we speak," says Gordon Bethune, chairman and chief executive of Continental Airlines. Continental's flight attendants now hand out cards after a delay of one hour, saying that the aircraft is under the control of the FAA once it leaves the gate and urging customers to write to Congress about air-traffic problems.
In a review of FAA and airline operations conducted by a joint committee of FAA evaluators and airline officials, the group uncovered numerous instances where controllers were slowing traffic based on inaccurate information, or simply for their own convenience.
On the Tarmac
American Flight 362, the 3 o'clock flight, pushed back from its gate at O'Hare with extra fuel on board and the ominous warning of long delays trying to get to New York.
The deck was stacked against that flight in many ways. Planes at big airports are often grounded ahead of those at small airports out of convenience, FAA officials admit. The reason: Controllers can thin out traffic with one phone call to a major airport like O'Hare, rather than calls to six smaller fields like Fort Wayne, Ind.
Planes at Midwest airports also have a tougher time getting a slot on airborne highways when traffic is spread out. When controllers impose 60-mile separation requirements, for example, airways are filled to capacity by flights from the coasts.
Further, Flight 362 had to fly through the FAA's Cleveland traffic-control center, the busiest and most troublesome of the regional centers because it funnels traffic into and out of the Northeast. Because the traffic is so heavy, controllers at Cleveland have at times this year taken the drastic step of imposing 100-mile separation requirements between planes, to make their workload manageable, the FAA says.
The FAA blames the Cleveland problems on a difficult transition to new equipment, frequent storms and heavy volume. The Cleveland center routinely handles 10,000 airplanes a day, the FAA says. Two years ago, 8,000 a day was considered busy and 10,000 was a major event.
The controllers' union says Cleveland-center controllers are simply being safe. "The airlines are getting beat up by their customers, so they point the finger back at the FAA, and a lot of it is undeserved," says Randy Schwitz, an official of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association.
With so many planes, delays are inevitable at some airports even in good weather. Newark, N.J., for example, can handle a maximum of 48 arrivals an hour. But some hours, airlines schedule 55 to 60 arrivals, guaranteeing some late arrivals, the FAA says.
With nowhere to go, Flight 362 taxied to a holding pad at O'Hare's Runway 9 Right. Two earlier American flights bound for New York's La Guardia airport were already sitting there waiting. Across the tarmac at United, the 2 p.m. La Guardia departure hadn't bothered to board, and the 3 p.m. had been canceled.
Flight 358 pushed back at 4:22 p.m., American says, and after a relatively routine one-hour delay, took off at 5:25 p.m.
Flight 362 and many other New York-bound flights remained on the Runway 9 Right holding pad. The FAA says it offered the long Southern routing to two American planes sitting on the holding pad at 5:52 p.m. But because of a lack of fuel -- they had been idling for more than three hours already -- they declined.
By 6 p.m., passengers aboard the still-stranded 3 p.m. departure were growing increasingly angry. The FAA says its specialists at the central command center were trying to work out a new route, but couldn't. The plane taxied back to a gate at 6:55 p.m. to unload a few furious customers who no longer wanted to make the trip.
On the way back in, the captain heard on the radio that routes to New York were soon opening up. But rather than risk further passenger rage, the captain decided to head to the gate.
Ground Stop
Weather causes 75% of all delays. But this summer, many delays have been due simply to poor coordination between the FAA's regional air-traffic-control centers and to ham-handed recovery efforts after storms, say FAA managers and airline operations officials.
At times, regional centers unilaterally halt the flow of airplanes, often without even telling the central command center, the FAA says. Instead of employing less-restrictive delays, overloaded controllers have been quicker to order "ground stops" that leave planes loaded with passengers and parked without a scheduled departure time.
And frequently this summer, controllers seeking to better manage their growing workload have imposed 60-mile separation requirements between airplanes; five miles is the standard minimum separation for planes cruising at high altitudes.
"It's the FAA"
"Gridlock is not a problem for the future -- it is happening now, today, as we speak," says Gordon Bethune, chairman and chief executive of Continental Airlines. Continental's flight attendants now hand out cards after a delay of one hour, saying that the aircraft is under the control of the FAA once it leaves the gate and urging customers to write to Congress about air-traffic problems.
In a review of FAA and airline operations conducted by a joint committee of FAA evaluators and airline officials, the group uncovered numerous instances where controllers were slowing traffic based on inaccurate information, or simply for their own convenience.
On the Tarmac
American Flight 362, the 3 o'clock flight, pushed back from its gate at O'Hare with extra fuel on board and the ominous warning of long delays trying to get to New York.
The deck was stacked against that flight in many ways. Planes at big airports are often grounded ahead of those at small airports out of convenience, FAA officials admit. The reason: Controllers can thin out traffic with one phone call to a major airport like O'Hare, rather than calls to six smaller fields like Fort Wayne, Ind.
Planes at Midwest airports also have a tougher time getting a slot on airborne highways when traffic is spread out. When controllers impose 60-mile separation requirements, for example, airways are filled to capacity by flights from the coasts.
Further, Flight 362 had to fly through the FAA's Cleveland traffic-control center, the busiest and most troublesome of the regional centers because it funnels traffic into and out of the Northeast. Because the traffic is so heavy, controllers at Cleveland have at times this year taken the drastic step of imposing 100-mile separation requirements between planes, to make their workload manageable, the FAA says.
The FAA blames the Cleveland problems on a difficult transition to new equipment, frequent storms and heavy volume. The Cleveland center routinely handles 10,000 airplanes a day, the FAA says. Two years ago, 8,000 a day was considered busy and 10,000 was a major event.
The controllers' union says Cleveland-center controllers are simply being safe. "The airlines are getting beat up by their customers, so they point the finger back at the FAA, and a lot of it is undeserved," says Randy Schwitz, an official of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association.
With so many planes, delays are inevitable at some airports even in good weather. Newark, N.J., for example, can handle a maximum of 48 arrivals an hour. But some hours, airlines schedule 55 to 60 arrivals, guaranteeing some late arrivals, the FAA says.
With nowhere to go, Flight 362 taxied to a holding pad at O'Hare's Runway 9 Right. Two earlier American flights bound for New York's La Guardia airport were already sitting there waiting. Across the tarmac at United, the 2 p.m. La Guardia departure hadn't bothered to board, and the 3 p.m. had been canceled.
Flight 358 pushed back at 4:22 p.m., American says, and after a relatively routine one-hour delay, took off at 5:25 p.m.
Flight 362 and many other New York-bound flights remained on the Runway 9 Right holding pad. The FAA says it offered the long Southern routing to two American planes sitting on the holding pad at 5:52 p.m. But because of a lack of fuel -- they had been idling for more than three hours already -- they declined.
By 6 p.m., passengers aboard the still-stranded 3 p.m. departure were growing increasingly angry. The FAA says its specialists at the central command center were trying to work out a new route, but couldn't. The plane taxied back to a gate at 6:55 p.m. to unload a few furious customers who no longer wanted to make the trip.
On the way back in, the captain heard on the radio that routes to New York were soon opening up. But rather than risk further passenger rage, the captain decided to head to the gate.
Last edited by Shitsu_Tonka; 2nd Dec 2006 at 11:13.
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??????
Gentlemen-gentle men.
Maybe you should all re-read some of Dick Smith's posts to find out how to post without attacking people, and verbally abusing them.
Can posts like some of the ones on here really be coming from intelligent responsible people?
Surely we can do better.
Maybe you should all re-read some of Dick Smith's posts to find out how to post without attacking people, and verbally abusing them.
Can posts like some of the ones on here really be coming from intelligent responsible people?
Surely we can do better.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Looking forward to returning to Japan soon but in the meantime continuing the never ending search for a bad bottle of Red!
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Gentlemen-gentle men.
Maybe you should all re-read some of Dick Smith's posts to find out how to post without attacking people, and verbally abusing them.
Can posts like some of the ones on here really be coming from intelligent responsible people?
Surely we can do better.
Maybe you should all re-read some of Dick Smith's posts to find out how to post without attacking people, and verbally abusing them.
Can posts like some of the ones on here really be coming from intelligent responsible people?
Surely we can do better.
And further to that Gentlemen; I am but a humble (aging) former GA driver whom unfortunately literally crashed out of Aviation. My current occupation is fruit picking.
I do not nor never have professed to having the intellect, knowledge or the ability to rationally debate most if not all of the subject of this thread.I will diligently read each and every post of threads such as this one as I have the attitude that I just might learn something.
However, I despair to the point of anguish how fellow Ppruners who appear to myself to be highly intelligent and knowledgable people far too often descend into personal attacks, invective and general abuse!
Gentlemen; You can do better that this!!!!
I'm in one of those moods
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Something also has to be done about the antagonistic culture that has now become part of being an Australian controller.
The apology sticky on the top of the Dunnunder Godzone is indicative of a pervasive behaviour that we have seen on these boards for several years now.
You all seem to struggle for answers when confronted and resort to personal attacks without source or foundation.
I'm sure you guys think this makes you look smart, but looking back on some of your own threads, you all look pretty stupid doing this.
.
bushy
.
… could you point to one ‘airspace/ATC’ issue raised by ATC’s or Mr Smith or Higgins that was not adequately addressed by ATC’s and Commercial Pilots?
.
… and I ask you, if your considered answers and opinions were repeatedly ignored, and your profession regularly accused of all manner of things by a handful of the ‘usual protagonist’s’ …. would you be frustrated and perhaps a little vitriolic??
.
.. and who played the man and not the ball this time around? .... hmm
.
… I mean how many times will the same statements, accusations and assertions be made with the same (unchallenged) retorts provided by ATC's and Commercial Pliots before sense prevails??
.
... the only sad thing about this is how many times the same arguments are put and made only to be ignored by the same handful of people who refuse to listen to reason!
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It's all fun and games till someone loses an eye, then it's bloody hilarious. Sorry but I'm a bit lost between preselections and spellchecks. I just went to the beginning of the thread and was wondering, are we getting radar? Has policy changed? Why can't we use ADS-B? Is class d good for oz?
I think we've ascertained there is no significant road block between VFR/IFR. That US controllers have similar problems and their system is not nessesarily what we require in australia due to frequency,size, etc. That infrastructure plays a role in holding and routing and that doesn't have much to do with ATC.We don't have as much money as our US friends but we do have some very skilled and well trained operators.
Where to from here people? Mr. Smith what is the plan? In simple english for fools like me please? What are your concerns in specifics and has this whale of a thread helped allay them in any way?
I think we've ascertained there is no significant road block between VFR/IFR. That US controllers have similar problems and their system is not nessesarily what we require in australia due to frequency,size, etc. That infrastructure plays a role in holding and routing and that doesn't have much to do with ATC.We don't have as much money as our US friends but we do have some very skilled and well trained operators.
Where to from here people? Mr. Smith what is the plan? In simple english for fools like me please? What are your concerns in specifics and has this whale of a thread helped allay them in any way?
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Good Question.
Whatever the answer is, in my view the solution is not to import a cobbled together system that has developed over many years with operational and political imperatives, to replace our own cobbled together system that has developed over many years with operational and political imperatives, purely because a couple of people say it's better but can't prove it with any real data or objectivity.
A good start would be taking the politics out of it - as much as possible.
Capacity restraints in Australia, where they exist, are to do with terrestrial infrastructure, brought about by privatisation of airports more than anything - the Airspace itself is not constrained, and nowhere near becoming so.
Personally, I have seen no convincing impartial evidence that airspace 'reform' as decreed by the Smith/Higgins POV is going to 'revitalise' GA / Aviation in Australia - whatever that means.
But hey - WTF would I know? I ride a Malvern Star.
Whatever the answer is, in my view the solution is not to import a cobbled together system that has developed over many years with operational and political imperatives, to replace our own cobbled together system that has developed over many years with operational and political imperatives, purely because a couple of people say it's better but can't prove it with any real data or objectivity.
A good start would be taking the politics out of it - as much as possible.
Capacity restraints in Australia, where they exist, are to do with terrestrial infrastructure, brought about by privatisation of airports more than anything - the Airspace itself is not constrained, and nowhere near becoming so.
Personally, I have seen no convincing impartial evidence that airspace 'reform' as decreed by the Smith/Higgins POV is going to 'revitalise' GA / Aviation in Australia - whatever that means.
But hey - WTF would I know? I ride a Malvern Star.
Don Quixote Impersonator
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bushy
According to the latest iteration of qantum mechanics and suchlike theories there really are multiverses or parallel universi
. To date they have not been able to prove that it is possible to slip from one universe to another and back, go backwards in time or even change reality, but I'm sure if they were to observe this and other threads on the matter they would get some pretty strong cues.
Lewis Carrol is now recognised as being one of the early and heretobefore unrecognised writers on the subject, simply then lacking the experimental evidence and the language developed from it to describe in scientific terms his thinking on the matter, thus the allegorical approach.
What is clear is that with the passage of time and when we are summoned from this sublunary abode all vanities cease and all the time and money spent on trying to subvert reality to our cause are as nothing.
Anyway now I gotta go take the family to Rottnest on my 20M Princess, with any luck the boatman will have the ice chest full of beer and steaks and we can get going straight away. Just love this daylight saving, adds another hour of boating fun to the day.
According to the latest iteration of qantum mechanics and suchlike theories there really are multiverses or parallel universi
. To date they have not been able to prove that it is possible to slip from one universe to another and back, go backwards in time or even change reality, but I'm sure if they were to observe this and other threads on the matter they would get some pretty strong cues. Lewis Carrol is now recognised as being one of the early and heretobefore unrecognised writers on the subject, simply then lacking the experimental evidence and the language developed from it to describe in scientific terms his thinking on the matter, thus the allegorical approach.
What is clear is that with the passage of time and when we are summoned from this sublunary abode all vanities cease and all the time and money spent on trying to subvert reality to our cause are as nothing.
Anyway now I gotta go take the family to Rottnest on my 20M Princess, with any luck the boatman will have the ice chest full of beer and steaks and we can get going straight away. Just love this daylight saving, adds another hour of boating fun to the day.
Last edited by gaunty; 3rd Dec 2006 at 00:19. Reason: speling
gaunty i loved your last two posts, fantastic...
I took the trouble to visit Dick's site the other day and have read half of UNSAFE SKIES, talk about adding two and two to get five. It would play really well to a non aviation literate audience but it is full of holes and technical errors. I am considering writing a response to the whole epic thing. Then again I have a glass of red and everything seems okay again...
I took the trouble to visit Dick's site the other day and have read half of UNSAFE SKIES, talk about adding two and two to get five. It would play really well to a non aviation literate audience but it is full of holes and technical errors. I am considering writing a response to the whole epic thing. Then again I have a glass of red and everything seems okay again...
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People who can't work as part of a team and run around as a renegade on the taxpayers behalf have no place in public life.
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Actual Delays to GA Operations by Airspace Design
Re-reading through a lot that has been written about how NAS and the airspace changes being pushed by the few are going to be the panacea and reduce all these company destroying delays to GA.
Nobody to date seems to recall any significant delays from either side of the microphone however.
I am just curious - has anybody in the PPrune audience flying GA been unduly diverted, delayed, pissed-around in the last say, 3 years, by reasons that can be attributed solely to the airspace classification?
Give details (as much as you want to reveal) and lets see what the real problems are. Why not?
Nobody to date seems to recall any significant delays from either side of the microphone however.
I am just curious - has anybody in the PPrune audience flying GA been unduly diverted, delayed, pissed-around in the last say, 3 years, by reasons that can be attributed solely to the airspace classification?
Give details (as much as you want to reveal) and lets see what the real problems are. Why not?
