Class C radar direction
I'm in one of those moods
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Folks,
I hate to disagree, but you've missed the point in sending tower controllers to/from Hawaii.
I hate to disagree, but you've missed the point in sending tower controllers to/from Hawaii.
The procedures in use are already very similar to what's used in the towers on the Queensland coast (up to A045 in Queensland and up to A025 in Hawaii). The real difference is the Hawaii radar HUB that provides the approach service.
Could the Airservices enroute guys provide an approach service to the same degree as the yanks???
If SDE is implemented first they would be able to directly compare the costs of providing the service now with what is intended if further NAS stuff is implemented. Veeeerrrrryyyy interesting
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.. it will be very interesting to see how the costs of various machinations of Regional Approach services costs are compared and quantified….
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… aside from issues of additional workload (coord etc) and combined services compatibilities (Enroute + App V’s Tower + Approach) .. which variation is going to have the responsible controllers less likely to be looking at something 200nm miles away .... which is a practical and logical combination of duties (enroute + app) or (tower + approach)?
… it would be short sighted to take a function off towers they already do efficiently, only to have additional costs incurred and lose traffic management efficiencies! …
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..the lower the split the more interaction required between TWR and App/Enroute!
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.. the A045 split works … one should ask, how does it ‘work’ when comparing to an A085 or higher split?!
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… at A045, how often is TWR separating arr/arr/dep traffic in Enroute airspace (with the additional necessary coord etc) V’s the A085 split TWR’s … with or without radar/TSAD?
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…. We know how many operational staff positions the service currently requires … lets see how many after this next odyssey?!
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.. that should have them out of the trenches
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… and one for you all to ponder as yee sleep tonight … ask yourself why there would be a push to further load enroute with regional approach??
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.. then ask yourself if you would prefer combined D Tower/App to the surface (including aerodrome services) as it currently is, OR Remote approach to say 2500’ AGL then a CTAF UNICOM or CA/GRO or perhaps a US VFR only ‘claytons’ D TWR?
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.. and if you think option number last sounds OK …. Think about a cloud-base around 1500’ to 3000’ AGL …… really think about the practical traffic management implications of that!!
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… enroute guys and girls and yee IFR pilots … have a good think about the implications i.e. breaking visual to the VFR circus below … DME Arrival O/S with an IFR in the early departure phase etc ….. different frequencies … different/less services … bugga all if any cost savings! …. Tis not rocket science!
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… quality, safety and efficiency costs …… is there any real cost savings? ..and is that worth the negatives?
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.. try having an accident and see how much ‘cheap and nasty’ costs!
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.. night all!
Thread Starter
Coral, you state:
Actually I’ve been overseas in the UK and other places. I have also been involved in attempting to have influence to prevent the outrageous sell-off of Qantas. I believe I will have some success there.
To those on PPRuNe who complain about Geoff Dixon, I can assure you that when Qantas is funded (read owned) by US banks that the airline will be torn apart for the maximum short term return, and the management (if you could call it that) will be totally ruthless in maximising their own incomes.
Roger Over, you state:
Oh, I wish this were true. I would suggest you talk to the major charter operator at Hamilton Island. Ask about the number of times his helicopters are held at the control zone boundary, orbiting over water, with the implicit safety problems.
As stated on this thread, US Class D towers are basically VFR. The IFR separation is conducted from the Centre using radar where it is available. Of course, over 50% of US Class D towers have no radar coverage available in the airspace immediately above the Class D.
I suggest you try flying VFR into Tamworth when there is a bit of training activity going on, and possibly and airline aircraft approaching or departing. You will find that it is one of the most complex procedures out. In fact, I’ve heard pilots say that they will never go back there again because it was so intimidating.
Remember, in the USA, Class D operates in a similar way to our GAAP procedures. That is, you do not actually request a clearance as a VFR pilot – you state what you want to do. Quite often the controller will simply come back and say “Join downwind, follow a 737.”
I can assure you that the US Class D system is incredibly simple and friendly. There is no comparison with what we do here in Australia.
Whats happened Dick - lost interest again? Can't answer the tough questions?
To those on PPRuNe who complain about Geoff Dixon, I can assure you that when Qantas is funded (read owned) by US banks that the airline will be torn apart for the maximum short term return, and the management (if you could call it that) will be totally ruthless in maximising their own incomes.
Roger Over, you state:
I hate to disagree, but you've missed the point in sending tower controllers to/from Hawaii. The procedures in use are already very similar to what's used in the towers on the Queensland coast
As stated on this thread, US Class D towers are basically VFR. The IFR separation is conducted from the Centre using radar where it is available. Of course, over 50% of US Class D towers have no radar coverage available in the airspace immediately above the Class D.
I suggest you try flying VFR into Tamworth when there is a bit of training activity going on, and possibly and airline aircraft approaching or departing. You will find that it is one of the most complex procedures out. In fact, I’ve heard pilots say that they will never go back there again because it was so intimidating.
Remember, in the USA, Class D operates in a similar way to our GAAP procedures. That is, you do not actually request a clearance as a VFR pilot – you state what you want to do. Quite often the controller will simply come back and say “Join downwind, follow a 737.”
I can assure you that the US Class D system is incredibly simple and friendly. There is no comparison with what we do here in Australia.
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Like Ansett?
I think Dick is right. It could be sold, asset stripped, and resold, just like Ansett was.
There is lots of cash to be had if everything, including the aircraft is sold, and contracted/leased back. Then lots of activity, to make it a saleable item. And get a big bonus for the exec's. It will resell, as it is the only way to gat Terminal space/slots etc at the major airports.
Air NZ got sucked into that, with Ansett.
Looks like it may happen again, with Qantas, and ?????
There is lots of cash to be had if everything, including the aircraft is sold, and contracted/leased back. Then lots of activity, to make it a saleable item. And get a big bonus for the exec's. It will resell, as it is the only way to gat Terminal space/slots etc at the major airports.
Air NZ got sucked into that, with Ansett.
Looks like it may happen again, with Qantas, and ?????
Last edited by bushy; 29th Nov 2006 at 01:56.
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Quite often the controller will simply come back and say “Join downwind, follow a 737.”
Gees Dick, stop this half the facts stuff. Leave airspace reform to the professionals.
Now I hear you know about running a business and how passionate an aussie you are. What about you get into Geoff Dixon a little more with his sell off/dismantling of the Aussie Icon we know as Qantas.
Oh and BTW, Qantas are a bigger influence on what AsA and CASA do then nearly anybody else so it makes sense to get on their Board if you want to change things.
Last edited by topdrop; 29th Nov 2006 at 06:15. Reason: deleted incorrect attribution
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Topdrop,
It's also safe to drive through an intersection, but not safe to park your car and leave it there!
I can assure you that Mr Smith does know what he is talking about with regards to Class D operations and the procedures he has outlined are the same as I have followed for the last sixteen years...and no, I don't need big brother to tell me to stay clear of wake turbulence.
Some of you Australian controllers seem to think you are "controlling" UAVs. These planes have pilots..or didn't you know that?!
It's also safe to drive through an intersection, but not safe to park your car and leave it there!
I can assure you that Mr Smith does know what he is talking about with regards to Class D operations and the procedures he has outlined are the same as I have followed for the last sixteen years...and no, I don't need big brother to tell me to stay clear of wake turbulence.
Some of you Australian controllers seem to think you are "controlling" UAVs. These planes have pilots..or didn't you know that?!
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...And how many of them have spudded in over the years?
Come on Dick, the entire rest of the world (and even most of the thinking people in America) thinks the lack of readbacks in the USA is a safety hazard and their 'clearance-by-acknowledging-your-callsign' procedure a joke.
As for me, I'm brushing up on my approach phraseologies: "ABC, climb to and maintain six thousand, hold at Bendigo, expect delay for approach clearance due to departing traffic..."
Come on Dick, the entire rest of the world (and even most of the thinking people in America) thinks the lack of readbacks in the USA is a safety hazard and their 'clearance-by-acknowledging-your-callsign' procedure a joke.
As for me, I'm brushing up on my approach phraseologies: "ABC, climb to and maintain six thousand, hold at Bendigo, expect delay for approach clearance due to departing traffic..."
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Philthy,
You really don't know what you're talking about. I am the first to admit that the Americans read back way too much, which combined with some non-standard phraseology really makes people like the Poms angry.
The American AIM, the equivalent to the AIP gives quite good guidelines and in many way it's very similar to any other ICAO country.
The rest of the world copies the Yanks anyway. Europe sounds more American every time I go over there.
You really don't know what you're talking about. I am the first to admit that the Americans read back way too much, which combined with some non-standard phraseology really makes people like the Poms angry.
The American AIM, the equivalent to the AIP gives quite good guidelines and in many way it's very similar to any other ICAO country.
The rest of the world copies the Yanks anyway. Europe sounds more American every time I go over there.
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No? Try reading this, then: http://www.mtc.gob.pe/portal/transpo..._jan_feb97.pdf
Like the airspace procedures, it's not what's in the AIM but what really goes on that counts.
Like the airspace procedures, it's not what's in the AIM but what really goes on that counts.
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So you believe everything you read too? Have you even been to America, or anywhere outside of Victoria for that matter?
Hey listen up!
You guys have been crying like babies about Dick Smith and not one of you has come up with a constructive alternative to any of his proposals.
Your, "We are the best in the world...yada yada yada blah blah blah" is a bunch of bull**** and you know it.
You have very few mountains, great weather and not a whole bunch of traffic and quite frankly, you shouldn't have anyone holding anywhere:-ever!
Stop the Dick Smith bashing and while you're at it, explain to me how anyone is made to hold anywhere on the reef?!
Hey listen up!
You guys have been crying like babies about Dick Smith and not one of you has come up with a constructive alternative to any of his proposals.
Your, "We are the best in the world...yada yada yada blah blah blah" is a bunch of bull**** and you know it.
You have very few mountains, great weather and not a whole bunch of traffic and quite frankly, you shouldn't have anyone holding anywhere:-ever!
Stop the Dick Smith bashing and while you're at it, explain to me how anyone is made to hold anywhere on the reef?!
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If I may weigh into this debate at such a late change, Chris Higgins, I think the problem with Australians accepting new airspace laws or airspace reform is that there is a component of the Australian psyche that is resistand to change, and it doesn't just occur in Aviation, it happens to all facets of Australian culture. You just have to look at the track record of referendums in Australia. I know this is a generaisation, so don't shoot me down in flames, but Australians as a whole, are resistant to change of any sort. Its a case of "It works well enough now, so why change it?" even if the change could be for the better.
Just my 2 cents anyway.
Just my 2 cents anyway.
Chris Higgins,
Neither have you sir 
You guys have been crying like babies about Dick Smith and not one of you has come up with a constructive alternative to any of his proposals.
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you shouldn't have anyone holding anywhere:-ever!
Almost all holding in OZ is due to a lack of concrete, not a lack of airspace; lack of awareness in the GA community of calling more than 10 seconds before you need is another significant factor; then there are the staffing delays...
Saw a very good article from the Chicago tribune earlier in the week where whole segments of airpace were reduced to 15 IFR movements an hour due lack of staff, oh yes it is a wonderful system in the USA, let's have it here, but bet they enjoyed the otherwise frustrated VFRs (delayed IFRS going VFR) flying about in E instead; all in the name of a safe system, not!
Remember the eurocontrol study; Australia has far less centre controllers per head of aircraft and a very similar number of tower controller/aircraft ratio when compared to the FAA.
It's not all about the 5NM or the 30NM from the runway; that's just the dead horse that is getting flogged again.
What do you think of this warning issued by IFALPA? http://www.ifalpa.org/sab/07SAB08Cla...ions_in_US.pdf
Seems all is not safe outside Class B, unless directly above it.
Last edited by VVS Laxman; 30th Nov 2006 at 07:02.
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I'm a little touchy?
Oh yes the Flight Safety Foundation...they call here all the time asking for money.
In the last sixteen years of worldwide flying I have held less than one hour of total time here in the United States. This includes four and a half years in JFK as a scheduled captain on an annoying turbo-prop, it also includes regular visits now in the Citation X to Los Angeles, Boston, Miami, Dallas, Chicago and St Louis..among others.
By comparison, I went to Bankstown and could not get off the ground for an hour to shoot approaches at Wollongong and we had to cancel IFR and transit beneath the steps to get back!
Airline schedules? Political movements? Get off the grass!! Next you'll be blaming sunspots! Your job is to move aircraft why they bleed fuel and piss-off passengers for being late and blame it on you. You knew this going into the profession and if you don't like it you should leave.
Sorry!
Next!!
Oh yes the Flight Safety Foundation...they call here all the time asking for money.
In the last sixteen years of worldwide flying I have held less than one hour of total time here in the United States. This includes four and a half years in JFK as a scheduled captain on an annoying turbo-prop, it also includes regular visits now in the Citation X to Los Angeles, Boston, Miami, Dallas, Chicago and St Louis..among others.
By comparison, I went to Bankstown and could not get off the ground for an hour to shoot approaches at Wollongong and we had to cancel IFR and transit beneath the steps to get back!
Airline schedules? Political movements? Get off the grass!! Next you'll be blaming sunspots! Your job is to move aircraft why they bleed fuel and piss-off passengers for being late and blame it on you. You knew this going into the profession and if you don't like it you should leave.
Sorry!
Next!!
Last edited by Chris Higgins; 30th Nov 2006 at 16:25.
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Okay you guys want something constructive.
1. Listen to Dick Smith and accept much of his experience at Class D airports.
2. Build more radar sites in Australia.
3. Pour more concrete, if indeed, congestion at airports is really that big a deal.
4. Establish a proper education and training program via software courses and do this well before the implementation date.
5. Totally overhaul the pilot training sylabii in Australia: get rid of multiple choice exams where the answers are known well in advance and get rid of the designated examiners and put that all back in control of CASA. The pilots that are being sent over here from there are a disgrace and you all know it. Also, make all Australian CPL holders get an instrument rating as part of their qualification just like it is in most countries now.
6. Send working teams of controllers and regulators to Americas busiest airports and have them trained here, so you all actually know what you're talking about, rather than reading about it in the Newspaper or on the 'net.
7. Establish a deadline for completion and stop leaving the entire airspace in "limbo" while you guys throw stuff back and forth at each other.
That's just for starters!
1. Listen to Dick Smith and accept much of his experience at Class D airports.
2. Build more radar sites in Australia.
3. Pour more concrete, if indeed, congestion at airports is really that big a deal.
4. Establish a proper education and training program via software courses and do this well before the implementation date.
5. Totally overhaul the pilot training sylabii in Australia: get rid of multiple choice exams where the answers are known well in advance and get rid of the designated examiners and put that all back in control of CASA. The pilots that are being sent over here from there are a disgrace and you all know it. Also, make all Australian CPL holders get an instrument rating as part of their qualification just like it is in most countries now.
6. Send working teams of controllers and regulators to Americas busiest airports and have them trained here, so you all actually know what you're talking about, rather than reading about it in the Newspaper or on the 'net.
7. Establish a deadline for completion and stop leaving the entire airspace in "limbo" while you guys throw stuff back and forth at each other.
That's just for starters!
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Hit the spot...keep going
CH
7 out of 7, but why stop there..............
8. Impliment ADSB...Across the fleet.....A380's to Pidgeons with weed-whacker motors and gliders......THE WHOLE fleet.
9. Take the stick to ASA and relieve the strain on ATC'ers, if we need a handful more, the cost overall is peanuts. trim back some executive fat to pay for it.
10.........anybody else care to add
PS I have never had an ATC problem up here.....but I do live in Gods country (no Mr Dixon not yours...)
J
7 out of 7, but why stop there..............
8. Impliment ADSB...Across the fleet.....A380's to Pidgeons with weed-whacker motors and gliders......THE WHOLE fleet.
9. Take the stick to ASA and relieve the strain on ATC'ers, if we need a handful more, the cost overall is peanuts. trim back some executive fat to pay for it.
10.........anybody else care to add
PS I have never had an ATC problem up here.....but I do live in Gods country (no Mr Dixon not yours...)
J