Class C radar direction
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Sounds Good Gents, who's paying? I like the ADSB, should be implemented now, across the whole fleet as you said. Do other people also have experience in Class D airspace?
I'm in one of those moods
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Chris,
… do you seriously think Aus ATC’s are not aware of how US ATC do the job ?? .. as we have said adnauseoum …. are you Daft? …. Apparently! .. but that’s OK, you are not alone!
.
I (and many others) can assure you that Phil knows of which he speaks!
.
Not only is he a very very experienced Air Traffic Controller ... his work for industry (across all spectrums) is .. well ... Legendary!
.
... you sir are quite frankly not anywhere near the same league! ... his work (mostly unpaid) is second to none!
.
.. as one, who has had the pleasure of sitting beside Phil providing voluntary ATS for industry events (including airshows) ... your hollow slights are pathetic at best ... invective at worst, based on shallow, sycophant motherhood statements …. Drivel really! … even American ATC’s are questioning the way the rules are applied in your Utopia! .. Aussie patriot?? … neh …. Some other motive me thinks!
.
.. your continued accusations toward ATC's in this country are ridiculous! ... the options and improvements you bemoan have been repeated time and time again! .. ignore them if that suits you! ….. but then… well.. a 10 pilot is beyond question even in Bush (big boy) eyes, let alone Bonsai (Little Bush’s) eyes!.
.
.. if what we (Aussies vice American apologist’s) say is baseless ..... EXPLAIN WHY! ... no spin ... no motherhood statements .. just technical and procedural FACTS!
.
Re Bankstown
.
When?
.
- was 07 in use at SY?
- was 11 in use at BK?
- what was the weather doing?
- what was your flight plan track out of BK?
.
..I worked there for 6.5 years (recently) so bull will not fly!
.
.. and the motherhood statements ...OK... do US controllers 'separate' IFR?
.
.. go on Guru .. by how much an under what circumstances?
.
.. and if you think other revelations in this place will give you and your mate licence to run amuck .... think again!
.
.. OH.... but we all play the man and not the ball ….. look in the mirror .. countenance … anything else????
.
...Next .. ferkwit!
.
J430
… yep … mate, you .....and a select few 
are a special bread (QLD’nder 
), most of us ATS personnel spend our lives trying to wind-up 
.... QLD customers!! .. .... oh the power 
.. but you all know you get the best track outa town (DCT YSCB)
... a good natured wind -up!! 
6. Send working teams of controllers and regulators to Americas busiest airports and have them trained here, so you all actually know what you're talking about, rather than reading about it in the Newspaper or on the 'net.
.
I (and many others) can assure you that Phil knows of which he speaks!
.
Not only is he a very very experienced Air Traffic Controller ... his work for industry (across all spectrums) is .. well ... Legendary!
.
... you sir are quite frankly not anywhere near the same league! ... his work (mostly unpaid) is second to none!
.
.. as one, who has had the pleasure of sitting beside Phil providing voluntary ATS for industry events (including airshows) ... your hollow slights are pathetic at best ... invective at worst, based on shallow, sycophant motherhood statements …. Drivel really! … even American ATC’s are questioning the way the rules are applied in your Utopia! .. Aussie patriot?? … neh …. Some other motive me thinks!
.
.. your continued accusations toward ATC's in this country are ridiculous! ... the options and improvements you bemoan have been repeated time and time again! .. ignore them if that suits you! ….. but then… well.. a 10 pilot is beyond question even in Bush (big boy) eyes, let alone Bonsai (Little Bush’s) eyes!.
.
.. if what we (Aussies vice American apologist’s) say is baseless ..... EXPLAIN WHY! ... no spin ... no motherhood statements .. just technical and procedural FACTS!
.
Re Bankstown
.
When?
.
- was 07 in use at SY?
- was 11 in use at BK?
- what was the weather doing?
- what was your flight plan track out of BK?
.
..I worked there for 6.5 years (recently) so bull will not fly!
.
.. and the motherhood statements ...OK... do US controllers 'separate' IFR?
.
.. go on Guru .. by how much an under what circumstances?
.
.. and if you think other revelations in this place will give you and your mate licence to run amuck .... think again!
.
.. OH.... but we all play the man and not the ball ….. look in the mirror .. countenance … anything else????
.
...Next .. ferkwit!
.
J430
I have never had an ATC problem up here.....but I do live in Gods country (no Mr Dixon not yours...)
are a special bread (QLD’nder ), most of us ATS personnel spend our lives trying to wind-up .... QLD customers!! .. .... oh the power .. but you all know you get the best track outa town (DCT YSCB)
... a good natured wind -up!!
Don Quixote Impersonator
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Australia
Age: 77
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if just 10% of the low-altitude maneuvers that are now occurring in the U.S. were eli
Inside Avionics
IN A NEW CONTRACT FROM AIRSERVICES AUSTRALIA
Aviation Week & Space Technology
09/11/2006, page 60
Edited by David Hughes
IN A NEW CONTRACT FROM AIRSERVICES AUSTRALIA, Sensis Corp. will supply multistatic dependent surveillance over Tasmania, with coverage down to the ground at Hobart and Launceston airports. The system initially will provide en route surveillance with multilateration and Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast, with accuracy of better than 150 meters (490 ft.). Full-scale operations will begin in 2008, and maintenance will be simplified for the Australians with a Sensis remote control and monitoring system. Multilateration works by timing the arrival of transponder signals at a series of antenna sites and then triangulating the aircraft's position based on time differences in signal arrival. With ADS-B, aircraft broadcast their position to receivers on the ground based on GPS and other sensor data. The Asia-Pacific region is a leader in deploying this new technology. For example, Sensis rival Rannoch Corp. recently completed a similar system over the Taiwan Strait for the Taiwan Civil Aviation Authority (AW&ST Aug. 7, p. 57). And Airservices Australia and SITA are demonstrating an ADS-B system in Indonesia (AW&ST Mar. 13, p. 53).
UPS Pioneers ADS-B
Aviation Week & Space Technology
11/06/2006, page 56
David Hughes
On Board UPS 903
Cargo carrier UPS plans to save fuel and improve runway safety next year
Printed headline: ADS-B PIONEER
Years before ADS-B became a top priority at the FAA, UPS installed the equipment on its flight decks. And the package carrier plans to build on this foundation in 2007 with major advances on its Boeing 757 and 767 fleet.
The FAA is fortunate to have a big U.S. airline pushing ahead aggressively with Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast because getting other carriers to buy new avionics will remain a key challenge for the agency. The UPS effort may encourage others to follow suit, once the benefits of such operations are demonstrated.
UPS 767s have a 5.5 X 4.5-in. cathode ray tube to display ADS-B target aircraft. A triangle (lower center of CDTI at left) shows "own-ship" position. The position of other ADS-B-equipped aircraft are also depicted, such as UPS 350 (noted in green at top center of display). Targets are also spotted by the 767's TCAS. Credit: UPS
This Aviation Week & Space Technology pilot recently rode in the jump seat of a UPS 767 freighter from Los Angeles to Louisville, Ky., to observe the existing ADS-B displays in use on the flight deck. And a month later, in Phoenix, I was briefed on new software in development that will enable the major step forward that UPS intends to take next year with ADS-B (see p. 60). Aviation Communication & Surveillance Systems (ACSS), a joint venture of L-3 Communications and Thales, is testing this software at its Arizona laboratory.
The UPS operations room at Los Angeles International Airport is in a cargo warehouse. James F. Haney, a UPS 757/ 767 captain, who would be in the left seat during takeoff, briefed me on what to expect. He said more than a dozen UPS freighters would be taking off from the West Coast just before dark headed for the company's WorldPort hub at Louisville International Airport. These are critical flights for the nightly UPS operations. Since the East Coast time zone is 3 hr. ahead of California, many of the freighters were already en route to Kentucky from the Atlantic seaboard.
But the package-sorting operation at Louisville would not be finished until the West Coast airplanes arrived. Only then could the final loading of 100 or more freighters on the ground be completed so they could be dispatched to cities all over the U.S.
This is an environment where delays of just a few minutes are significant. So I began to see why UPS is forging ahead with improved ADS-B capability.
UPS's 757s and 767s are already equipped with 5.5 X 4.5-in. CDTI (cockpit display of traffic information) systems originally supplied by a UPS-owned avionics company that's now owned by Garmin (see display, above left). But UPS plans to retrofit this entire fleet of aircraft with Class 3 electronic flight bags with displays to the left of the pilot and to the right of the first officer.
The current setup provides closure rate and distance to other UPS aircraft in the West Coast stream that have the same ADS-B equipment. These aircraft broadcast their GPS-derived positions continuously via 1090 MHz. on the extended squitter function of a Mode-S transponder. We were able to receive the information via line of sight, up to about 150-200 naut. mi. away. This helped us guide our arrival at Louisville as the West Coast stream of freighters lined up for landing.
Haney is a volunteer on the Independent Pilots Assn.'s safety committee and is active in the UPS pilot union's effort to work with the company to implement ADS-B. He maintains an Internet forum where IPA pilots can ask technical questions about ADS-B and receive prompt answers. He believes he can make a contribution to the program based on what he sees as a pilot flying the company's aircraft every day.
Soon, we were in the 767 cockpit. Haney occupied the left seat and Capt. Jack Blake, the right. The CDTI system has a dedicated but small cathode ray tube on the pedestal in front of the throttle quadrants. Haney said it looked like cargo loading was not complete, and we would probably have to depart a few minutes late--an event that would definitely draw the attention of the UPS air operations center in Louisville.
The CDTI system also has a traffic conflict function that monitors all ADS-B transmitting aircraft. This feature would alert us to any conflict by changing the target aircraft color to yellow--but there would be no avoidance maneuvers communicated to the pilot, as is the case with TCAS (which is also installed on the aircraft).
Aviation Communication & Surveillance Systems is creating SafeRoute ADS-B software for UPS. In this runway-incursion example, "own ship" (pink triangle) shows that the aircraft has crossed the hold-short line for Runway 29 (outlined in red to warn pilot) where another aircraft is taking off (colored red as a warning). An audio alert sounds.Credit: ACSS
Eventually we pushed back from our parking spot a few minutes behind schedule because of late-arriving packages. But UPS dispatchers always plan for this, and we were carrying a little extra fuel so we could speed up to make up time on the way to Louisville. We could see a few other ADS-B-equipped airline aircraft on the ground on the CDTI display. Haney noted that airlines taking delivery of new aircraft off the production line often receive them equipped to transmit "ADS-B out" data to other aircraft. He also pointed out that the situational awareness provided by ADS-B could be a lifesaver if another aircraft approaches from behind where it can't otherwise be seen.
We were cleared for takeoff on the 12,000-ft.-long Runway 25R, and soon the 767 was airborne headed out over the Pacific Ocean. ATC soon began to turn us back to the east. The aircraft's takeoff weight of about 300,000 lb. included about 35 tons of cargo. It got dark quickly as we pointed the nose away from the setting Sun.
Although we could not see them yet on the ADS-B display, we knew that UPS freighters were also launching about this time from Long Beach, San Diego, Burbank, Sacramento and Oakland, Calif., among other airports along the coast. Soon we spotted UPS 905 about 5,000 ft. above us and traveling about 50 kt. faster. That aircraft had just departed from Long Beach. Haney said we would be following 905 all the way to Louisville. The CDTI system would show closure rates when the aircraft ahead entered into a 40-deg.-wide cone off the nose of our aircraft.
The CDTI display has two symbols, and the bullet-shaped one indicated we were not receiving a "quality" ADS-B signal from the traffic ahead. This could have been caused by poor position data on the target or sporadic reception of the signal. Even so, it's possible to see the aircraft ahead or behind on the display, as well as how far away it is. However, when a "quality" signal is present, a chevron-shaped symbol appears instead. Data next to the chevron shows the target aircraft identification, its altitude relative to "own-ship," and whether it's climbing or descending. And when the pilot selects a chevron to retrieve more data, the other aircraft's flight identification, weight class, ground speed in knots, and range in nautical miles are shown in the lower left of the CDTI display.
In addition to presenting ADS-B aircraft, the CDTI can show TCAS-equipped targets as well. Two different perspectives can be selected for presentation on the CDTI: One is a full compass rose with own-ship represented by a triangle in the middle of the display. On this type of presentation, it's possible to see other freighters behind as well as ahead. The other perspective is the top half of the compass rose showing an enlarged view of the path ahead.
On this night, UPS was not running any trial of its future goal--en route merging and spacing of its freighters so they arrive in the Louisville area single-file and ready to begin continuous-descent approaches in sequence.
"Consistency is one thing that gets you [more] capacity," said Bob Hilb, UPS's advanced flight systems manager. In an earlier discussion, he said the aim is to drive in much closer to the big UPS hub before pulling the throttles to near idle and coming down fairly quickly to touch down within seconds of the expected arrival time.
This tactic avoids the problem of descending to low altitude and being vectored around by ATC as controllers work to line up aircraft with the right spacing for landing. "All of that low-attitude vectoring is pure cost and no benefit at all," Hilb said, adding that if just 10% of the low-altitude maneuvers that are now occurring in the U.S. were eliminated, most airlines would be making a profit.As we arrived near Louisville at around 2 a.m. on a clear night, our aircraft was sequenced into a pattern approach to the airport. We could see lights ahead as other aircraft flew wide downwind and base legs to final. The "good news" was that there was not a lot of low-altitude vectoring, as might have been required during low visibility.
And this revealed another benefit of ADS-B: If visibility had been deteriorating, we would still have been able to see all of the other UPS aircraft on the CDTI display. This might have allowed us to maintain visual-flight-rule type of separation even in instrument conditions. Some of the regulations that would apply to such situations have yet to be ironed out by the FAA, although the agency is working on this issue.
Haney said the CDTI display helped him to plan his approach and the required configuration changes, such as when to extend the gear and flaps. Blake showed me how he used the 5-mi.-range rings to keep better track of how far behind the lead aircraft we were. The aim was to stay about 5 mi. in trail.
We finished the night with a visual approach to Runway 35L at Louisville, and wasted no time taxiing to park near a row of other UPS freighters. Ground handlers scurried around tending to aircraft and loading cargo. We taxied right up to a huge warehouse, and our packages were soon inside being sorted for the outbound leg.
Haney and I walked inside the UPS flight-ops room to check the schedule of outbound flights scrolling by on digital screens. Then we had a post-midnight cup of coffee in the cafeteria, where pilots and flight engineers relax for a few minutes while they wait to launch back into the night for the next leg of their journey.
By next year, the operation should be even more precise and timely, thanks to the pioneering ADS-B efforts of the management and union pilots leading the way at UPS.
So tell me again why we dont have universal use of ADSB?
IN A NEW CONTRACT FROM AIRSERVICES AUSTRALIA
Aviation Week & Space Technology
09/11/2006, page 60
Edited by David Hughes
IN A NEW CONTRACT FROM AIRSERVICES AUSTRALIA, Sensis Corp. will supply multistatic dependent surveillance over Tasmania, with coverage down to the ground at Hobart and Launceston airports. The system initially will provide en route surveillance with multilateration and Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast, with accuracy of better than 150 meters (490 ft.). Full-scale operations will begin in 2008, and maintenance will be simplified for the Australians with a Sensis remote control and monitoring system. Multilateration works by timing the arrival of transponder signals at a series of antenna sites and then triangulating the aircraft's position based on time differences in signal arrival. With ADS-B, aircraft broadcast their position to receivers on the ground based on GPS and other sensor data. The Asia-Pacific region is a leader in deploying this new technology. For example, Sensis rival Rannoch Corp. recently completed a similar system over the Taiwan Strait for the Taiwan Civil Aviation Authority (AW&ST Aug. 7, p. 57). And Airservices Australia and SITA are demonstrating an ADS-B system in Indonesia (AW&ST Mar. 13, p. 53).
UPS Pioneers ADS-B
Aviation Week & Space Technology
11/06/2006, page 56
David Hughes
On Board UPS 903
Cargo carrier UPS plans to save fuel and improve runway safety next year
Printed headline: ADS-B PIONEER
Years before ADS-B became a top priority at the FAA, UPS installed the equipment on its flight decks. And the package carrier plans to build on this foundation in 2007 with major advances on its Boeing 757 and 767 fleet.
The FAA is fortunate to have a big U.S. airline pushing ahead aggressively with Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast because getting other carriers to buy new avionics will remain a key challenge for the agency. The UPS effort may encourage others to follow suit, once the benefits of such operations are demonstrated.
UPS 767s have a 5.5 X 4.5-in. cathode ray tube to display ADS-B target aircraft. A triangle (lower center of CDTI at left) shows "own-ship" position. The position of other ADS-B-equipped aircraft are also depicted, such as UPS 350 (noted in green at top center of display). Targets are also spotted by the 767's TCAS. Credit: UPS
This Aviation Week & Space Technology pilot recently rode in the jump seat of a UPS 767 freighter from Los Angeles to Louisville, Ky., to observe the existing ADS-B displays in use on the flight deck. And a month later, in Phoenix, I was briefed on new software in development that will enable the major step forward that UPS intends to take next year with ADS-B (see p. 60). Aviation Communication & Surveillance Systems (ACSS), a joint venture of L-3 Communications and Thales, is testing this software at its Arizona laboratory.
The UPS operations room at Los Angeles International Airport is in a cargo warehouse. James F. Haney, a UPS 757/ 767 captain, who would be in the left seat during takeoff, briefed me on what to expect. He said more than a dozen UPS freighters would be taking off from the West Coast just before dark headed for the company's WorldPort hub at Louisville International Airport. These are critical flights for the nightly UPS operations. Since the East Coast time zone is 3 hr. ahead of California, many of the freighters were already en route to Kentucky from the Atlantic seaboard.
But the package-sorting operation at Louisville would not be finished until the West Coast airplanes arrived. Only then could the final loading of 100 or more freighters on the ground be completed so they could be dispatched to cities all over the U.S.
This is an environment where delays of just a few minutes are significant. So I began to see why UPS is forging ahead with improved ADS-B capability.
UPS's 757s and 767s are already equipped with 5.5 X 4.5-in. CDTI (cockpit display of traffic information) systems originally supplied by a UPS-owned avionics company that's now owned by Garmin (see display, above left). But UPS plans to retrofit this entire fleet of aircraft with Class 3 electronic flight bags with displays to the left of the pilot and to the right of the first officer.
The current setup provides closure rate and distance to other UPS aircraft in the West Coast stream that have the same ADS-B equipment. These aircraft broadcast their GPS-derived positions continuously via 1090 MHz. on the extended squitter function of a Mode-S transponder. We were able to receive the information via line of sight, up to about 150-200 naut. mi. away. This helped us guide our arrival at Louisville as the West Coast stream of freighters lined up for landing.
Haney is a volunteer on the Independent Pilots Assn.'s safety committee and is active in the UPS pilot union's effort to work with the company to implement ADS-B. He maintains an Internet forum where IPA pilots can ask technical questions about ADS-B and receive prompt answers. He believes he can make a contribution to the program based on what he sees as a pilot flying the company's aircraft every day.
Soon, we were in the 767 cockpit. Haney occupied the left seat and Capt. Jack Blake, the right. The CDTI system has a dedicated but small cathode ray tube on the pedestal in front of the throttle quadrants. Haney said it looked like cargo loading was not complete, and we would probably have to depart a few minutes late--an event that would definitely draw the attention of the UPS air operations center in Louisville.
The CDTI system also has a traffic conflict function that monitors all ADS-B transmitting aircraft. This feature would alert us to any conflict by changing the target aircraft color to yellow--but there would be no avoidance maneuvers communicated to the pilot, as is the case with TCAS (which is also installed on the aircraft).
Aviation Communication & Surveillance Systems is creating SafeRoute ADS-B software for UPS. In this runway-incursion example, "own ship" (pink triangle) shows that the aircraft has crossed the hold-short line for Runway 29 (outlined in red to warn pilot) where another aircraft is taking off (colored red as a warning). An audio alert sounds.Credit: ACSS
Eventually we pushed back from our parking spot a few minutes behind schedule because of late-arriving packages. But UPS dispatchers always plan for this, and we were carrying a little extra fuel so we could speed up to make up time on the way to Louisville. We could see a few other ADS-B-equipped airline aircraft on the ground on the CDTI display. Haney noted that airlines taking delivery of new aircraft off the production line often receive them equipped to transmit "ADS-B out" data to other aircraft. He also pointed out that the situational awareness provided by ADS-B could be a lifesaver if another aircraft approaches from behind where it can't otherwise be seen.
We were cleared for takeoff on the 12,000-ft.-long Runway 25R, and soon the 767 was airborne headed out over the Pacific Ocean. ATC soon began to turn us back to the east. The aircraft's takeoff weight of about 300,000 lb. included about 35 tons of cargo. It got dark quickly as we pointed the nose away from the setting Sun.
Although we could not see them yet on the ADS-B display, we knew that UPS freighters were also launching about this time from Long Beach, San Diego, Burbank, Sacramento and Oakland, Calif., among other airports along the coast. Soon we spotted UPS 905 about 5,000 ft. above us and traveling about 50 kt. faster. That aircraft had just departed from Long Beach. Haney said we would be following 905 all the way to Louisville. The CDTI system would show closure rates when the aircraft ahead entered into a 40-deg.-wide cone off the nose of our aircraft.
The CDTI display has two symbols, and the bullet-shaped one indicated we were not receiving a "quality" ADS-B signal from the traffic ahead. This could have been caused by poor position data on the target or sporadic reception of the signal. Even so, it's possible to see the aircraft ahead or behind on the display, as well as how far away it is. However, when a "quality" signal is present, a chevron-shaped symbol appears instead. Data next to the chevron shows the target aircraft identification, its altitude relative to "own-ship," and whether it's climbing or descending. And when the pilot selects a chevron to retrieve more data, the other aircraft's flight identification, weight class, ground speed in knots, and range in nautical miles are shown in the lower left of the CDTI display.
In addition to presenting ADS-B aircraft, the CDTI can show TCAS-equipped targets as well. Two different perspectives can be selected for presentation on the CDTI: One is a full compass rose with own-ship represented by a triangle in the middle of the display. On this type of presentation, it's possible to see other freighters behind as well as ahead. The other perspective is the top half of the compass rose showing an enlarged view of the path ahead.
On this night, UPS was not running any trial of its future goal--en route merging and spacing of its freighters so they arrive in the Louisville area single-file and ready to begin continuous-descent approaches in sequence.
"Consistency is one thing that gets you [more] capacity," said Bob Hilb, UPS's advanced flight systems manager. In an earlier discussion, he said the aim is to drive in much closer to the big UPS hub before pulling the throttles to near idle and coming down fairly quickly to touch down within seconds of the expected arrival time.
This tactic avoids the problem of descending to low altitude and being vectored around by ATC as controllers work to line up aircraft with the right spacing for landing. "All of that low-attitude vectoring is pure cost and no benefit at all," Hilb said, adding that if just 10% of the low-altitude maneuvers that are now occurring in the U.S. were eliminated, most airlines would be making a profit.As we arrived near Louisville at around 2 a.m. on a clear night, our aircraft was sequenced into a pattern approach to the airport. We could see lights ahead as other aircraft flew wide downwind and base legs to final. The "good news" was that there was not a lot of low-altitude vectoring, as might have been required during low visibility.
And this revealed another benefit of ADS-B: If visibility had been deteriorating, we would still have been able to see all of the other UPS aircraft on the CDTI display. This might have allowed us to maintain visual-flight-rule type of separation even in instrument conditions. Some of the regulations that would apply to such situations have yet to be ironed out by the FAA, although the agency is working on this issue.
Haney said the CDTI display helped him to plan his approach and the required configuration changes, such as when to extend the gear and flaps. Blake showed me how he used the 5-mi.-range rings to keep better track of how far behind the lead aircraft we were. The aim was to stay about 5 mi. in trail.
We finished the night with a visual approach to Runway 35L at Louisville, and wasted no time taxiing to park near a row of other UPS freighters. Ground handlers scurried around tending to aircraft and loading cargo. We taxied right up to a huge warehouse, and our packages were soon inside being sorted for the outbound leg.
Haney and I walked inside the UPS flight-ops room to check the schedule of outbound flights scrolling by on digital screens. Then we had a post-midnight cup of coffee in the cafeteria, where pilots and flight engineers relax for a few minutes while they wait to launch back into the night for the next leg of their journey.
By next year, the operation should be even more precise and timely, thanks to the pioneering ADS-B efforts of the management and union pilots leading the way at UPS.
So tell me again why we dont have universal use of ADSB?
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I thought personal insults were verboten in here?
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I thought personal insults were verboten in here?
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Dunnunda Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Brisbane has 27 aircraft scheduled to arrive within a 45 (oops!) minuteperiod, with one runway available. The arrival rate is 2.5 minutes (allows for departures and wake turbulence).
Tell me Chris how your loud bluster overcomes the maths of the problem and through shouting 'No Holding Ever', all the aircraft get to land without delay? I believe you could make a lot of money! And make a lot of pilots and controllers happy at the same time.
I don't think Airspace reform, or those that administer the airspae, has much to do with building more concrete mate - and as you well know, THAT is the limiting factor to movements in Australia, NOT airspace.
You can loudly blow your horn about more infrastructure - we would all like it - as someone else has said: who pays?
I don't think the GA user want to pay for it directly (I know I don't).
Tell me Chris how your loud bluster overcomes the maths of the problem and through shouting 'No Holding Ever', all the aircraft get to land without delay? I believe you could make a lot of money! And make a lot of pilots and controllers happy at the same time.
I don't think Airspace reform, or those that administer the airspae, has much to do with building more concrete mate - and as you well know, THAT is the limiting factor to movements in Australia, NOT airspace.
You can loudly blow your horn about more infrastructure - we would all like it - as someone else has said: who pays?
I don't think the GA user want to pay for it directly (I know I don't).
Last edited by Shitsu_Tonka; 1st Dec 2006 at 04:38.
ANSWERS TO CHRIS HIGGINS
1. Listen to Dick Smith and accept much of his experience at Class D airports.
Why accept the opinion of a SINGLE USER of an airspace system. If I drive a car for 30 years does that mean I am qualified to design and build one? Yes we should adopt the BEST from overseas, as far as I can see RHS wants to cherry pick parts of the US NAS without the underlying infrastructure.
2. Build more radar sites in Australia.
Too expensive and completely unnecessary with ADS-B on the way
3. Pour more concrete, if indeed, congestion at airports is really that big a deal.
Clearly you doubt congestion. Next time you visit OZ spent 2-3 hours monitoring an airport at PEAK times. ANY captial city airport. Heck I reckon one of the ATCOs here would let you sit in the tower and watch if you promised to keep quiet. At Perth we have NOTAMS every week to say various taxiways are blocked due parked aircraft. There is not even enough room to park the damn things. We are in a resource boom here so FIFO is going crazy.
4. Establish a proper education and training program via software courses and do this well before the implementation date.
Speak to RHS about this. This exactly the opposite of the last two NAS changes. They were unmitigated disasters, a how not to implement something example. Last minute amending documents that barely arrived by implementation date. Chart changes that were reversed at the next amendment as they were independently found to be dangerous.
5. Totally overhaul the pilot training sylabii in Australia: get rid of multiple choice exams where the answers are known well in advance and get rid of the designated examiners and put that all back in control of CASA. The pilots that are being sent over here from there are a disgrace and you all know it. Also, make all Australian CPL holders get an instrument rating as part of their qualification just like it is in most countries now.
OFF TOPIC ALERT. We are talking about AIRSPACE. Anyway, the US system you admire and operate in uses multi choice EVERYWHERE and due to FOI laws EVEN PUBLISHES the blasted things for everyone to rote learn!
6. Send working teams of controllers and regulators to Americas busiest airports and have them trained here, so you all actually know what you're talking about, rather than reading about it in the Newspaper or on the 'net.
Do you honestly believe ATCOs do not travel either privately or as part of their job to see what goes on overseas? Really? Come on Chris...
7. Establish a deadline for completion and stop leaving the entire airspace in "limbo" while you guys throw stuff back and forth at each other.
Agree entirely. The problem is that to have a deadline you need to know what the end state is. NAS documents actually state that there is no known end state at this stage, have you read them Chris? If NAS is so great, bring it on. It is the ARG and NASIG that have gone VERY QUIET of late.Now we are getting another level of bureacracy to manage airspace
Have a nice day.
1. Listen to Dick Smith and accept much of his experience at Class D airports.
Why accept the opinion of a SINGLE USER of an airspace system. If I drive a car for 30 years does that mean I am qualified to design and build one? Yes we should adopt the BEST from overseas, as far as I can see RHS wants to cherry pick parts of the US NAS without the underlying infrastructure.
2. Build more radar sites in Australia.
Too expensive and completely unnecessary with ADS-B on the way
3. Pour more concrete, if indeed, congestion at airports is really that big a deal.
Clearly you doubt congestion. Next time you visit OZ spent 2-3 hours monitoring an airport at PEAK times. ANY captial city airport. Heck I reckon one of the ATCOs here would let you sit in the tower and watch if you promised to keep quiet. At Perth we have NOTAMS every week to say various taxiways are blocked due parked aircraft. There is not even enough room to park the damn things. We are in a resource boom here so FIFO is going crazy.
4. Establish a proper education and training program via software courses and do this well before the implementation date.
Speak to RHS about this. This exactly the opposite of the last two NAS changes. They were unmitigated disasters, a how not to implement something example. Last minute amending documents that barely arrived by implementation date. Chart changes that were reversed at the next amendment as they were independently found to be dangerous.
5. Totally overhaul the pilot training sylabii in Australia: get rid of multiple choice exams where the answers are known well in advance and get rid of the designated examiners and put that all back in control of CASA. The pilots that are being sent over here from there are a disgrace and you all know it. Also, make all Australian CPL holders get an instrument rating as part of their qualification just like it is in most countries now.
OFF TOPIC ALERT. We are talking about AIRSPACE. Anyway, the US system you admire and operate in uses multi choice EVERYWHERE and due to FOI laws EVEN PUBLISHES the blasted things for everyone to rote learn!
6. Send working teams of controllers and regulators to Americas busiest airports and have them trained here, so you all actually know what you're talking about, rather than reading about it in the Newspaper or on the 'net.
Do you honestly believe ATCOs do not travel either privately or as part of their job to see what goes on overseas? Really? Come on Chris...
7. Establish a deadline for completion and stop leaving the entire airspace in "limbo" while you guys throw stuff back and forth at each other.
Agree entirely. The problem is that to have a deadline you need to know what the end state is. NAS documents actually state that there is no known end state at this stage, have you read them Chris? If NAS is so great, bring it on. It is the ARG and NASIG that have gone VERY QUIET of late.Now we are getting another level of bureacracy to manage airspace
Have a nice day.
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Icarus 2001,
Believe it or not, one of the best replies I've ever read. No I'm not taking the mickey out of you, you obviously care enough to respond so let me offer something back to you in turn.
ADS-B may o rmay not solve the problems we speak of. You're obviously sold on the idea, but radar sites can provide redundancy too. Yes, it's expensive, but what isn't. It's also proven design.
Gaunty provided an excellent copy of an article about reducing low altitude routing and the cost savings in fuel consumption alone. You would think the Yanks would be all over this article, and I can't figure out why they're not.
I see on another post you feel the 737-200 with a combination of charter and scheduled flying could be profitable. ADS-B might, indeed be the answer to help that operation as well, although the scheduled run seems to be thin on conflicting traffic.
You and I both know that you can't even fly passengers on IFR flights outside of 25 miles in the USA without an instrument rating, to do so commercially, you also have to have 1,200 hours! Not a wet licence and a 175 hours like in Australia. The Yanks realised years back that the Freedom of Information Act would make a mockery of their theory courses, so that was their antidote.
I have no doubt that you have problems on the ground with congestion. The reference to pouring concrete was to be taken quite literally. You have to have infrastructure.
Any new airspace with "heads down technology" in the cockpit also prevents see and avoid. There was and still is a widespread reluctance to deal with controllers in the Australian general aviation movement and an instrument rating with a requirement for flight to capital city airports would help alleviate this concern. It will also help put an end to the stories of incompetence that many controllers have told in these threads of general aviation pilots who do not comply with clearances or bust CTA boundaries.
The need for an instrument rating on the Australian Certificate is long overdue, so is the need to "retire" some of these testing officers who are running printing presses, not responsible assessments. It's totally on thread.
Whining about the failures of the past and the lack of foresight in training and distribution as the last changes occurred is totally irrelevant to this discussion. We only have what is here and now and we can only hope to plan for the future!
Thank you, I will have a nice day and I hope you do too!
Believe it or not, one of the best replies I've ever read. No I'm not taking the mickey out of you, you obviously care enough to respond so let me offer something back to you in turn.
ADS-B may o rmay not solve the problems we speak of. You're obviously sold on the idea, but radar sites can provide redundancy too. Yes, it's expensive, but what isn't. It's also proven design.
Gaunty provided an excellent copy of an article about reducing low altitude routing and the cost savings in fuel consumption alone. You would think the Yanks would be all over this article, and I can't figure out why they're not.
I see on another post you feel the 737-200 with a combination of charter and scheduled flying could be profitable. ADS-B might, indeed be the answer to help that operation as well, although the scheduled run seems to be thin on conflicting traffic.
You and I both know that you can't even fly passengers on IFR flights outside of 25 miles in the USA without an instrument rating, to do so commercially, you also have to have 1,200 hours! Not a wet licence and a 175 hours like in Australia. The Yanks realised years back that the Freedom of Information Act would make a mockery of their theory courses, so that was their antidote.
I have no doubt that you have problems on the ground with congestion. The reference to pouring concrete was to be taken quite literally. You have to have infrastructure.
Any new airspace with "heads down technology" in the cockpit also prevents see and avoid. There was and still is a widespread reluctance to deal with controllers in the Australian general aviation movement and an instrument rating with a requirement for flight to capital city airports would help alleviate this concern. It will also help put an end to the stories of incompetence that many controllers have told in these threads of general aviation pilots who do not comply with clearances or bust CTA boundaries.
The need for an instrument rating on the Australian Certificate is long overdue, so is the need to "retire" some of these testing officers who are running printing presses, not responsible assessments. It's totally on thread.
Whining about the failures of the past and the lack of foresight in training and distribution as the last changes occurred is totally irrelevant to this discussion. We only have what is here and now and we can only hope to plan for the future!
Thank you, I will have a nice day and I hope you do too!
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Brisbane has 27 aircraft scheduled to arrive within a 45 hour period, with one runway available. The arrival rate is 2.5 minutes (allows for departures and wake turbulence).
Tell me Chris how your loud bluster overcomes the maths of the problem and through shouting 'No Holding Ever', all the aircraft get to land without delay? I believe you could make a lot of money! And make a lot of pilots and controllers happy at the same time.
I don't think Airspace reform, or those that administer the airspae, has much to do with building more concrete mate - and as you well know, THAT is the limiting factor to movements in Australia, NOT airspace.
You can loudly blow your horn about more infrastructure - we would all like it - as someone else has said: who pays?
I don't think the GA user want to pay for it directly (I know I don't).
Tell me Chris how your loud bluster overcomes the maths of the problem and through shouting 'No Holding Ever', all the aircraft get to land without delay? I believe you could make a lot of money! And make a lot of pilots and controllers happy at the same time.
I don't think Airspace reform, or those that administer the airspae, has much to do with building more concrete mate - and as you well know, THAT is the limiting factor to movements in Australia, NOT airspace.
You can loudly blow your horn about more infrastructure - we would all like it - as someone else has said: who pays?
I don't think the GA user want to pay for it directly (I know I don't).
We really need to get some new controllers in Oz right now!!
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Chris, … do you seriously think Aus ATC’s are not aware of how US ATC do the job ?? .. as we have said adnauseoum …. are you Daft? …. Apparently! .. but that’s OK, you are not alone!
.
I (and many others) can assure you that Phil knows of which he speaks!
.
Not only is he a very very experienced Air Traffic Controller ... his work for industry (across all spectrums) is .. well ... Legendary!
.
... you sir are quite frankly not anywhere near the same league! ... his work (mostly unpaid) is second to none!
. your hollow slights
.. as one, who has had the pleasure of sitting beside Phil providing voluntary ATS for industry events (including airshows) ...are pathetic at best ... invective at worst, based on shallow, sycophant motherhood statements …. Drivel really! … even American ATC’s are questioning the way the rules are applied in your Utopia! .. Aussie patriot?? … neh …. Some other motive me thinks!
.
.. your continued accusations toward ATC's in this country are ridiculous! ... the options and improvements you bemoan have been repeated time and time again! .. ignore them if that suits you! ….. but then… well.. a 10 pilot is beyond question even in Bush (big boy) eyes, let alone Bonsai (Little Bush’s) eyes!.
.
.. if what we (Aussies vice American apologist’s) say is baseless ..... EXPLAIN WHY! ... no spin ... no motherhood statements .. just technical and procedural FACTS!
.
Re Bankstown
.
When?
.
- was 07 in use at SY?
- was 11 in use at BK?
- what was the weather doing?
- what was your flight plan track out of BK?
.
..I worked there for 6.5 years (recently) so bull will not fly!
.
.. and the motherhood statements ...OK... do US controllers 'separate' IFR?
.
.. go on Guru .. by how much an under what circumstances?
.
.. and if you think other revelations in this place will give you and your mate licence to run amuck .... think again!
.
.. OH.... but we all play the man and not the ball ….. look in the mirror .. countenance … anything else????
.
...Next .. ferkwit!
.
J430 … yep … mate, you .....and a select few are a special bread (QLD’nder ), most of us ATS personnel spend our lives trying to wind-up .... QLD customers!! .. .... oh the power
.. but you all know you get the best track outa town (DCT YSCB) ... a good natured wind -up!!
.
I (and many others) can assure you that Phil knows of which he speaks!
.
Not only is he a very very experienced Air Traffic Controller ... his work for industry (across all spectrums) is .. well ... Legendary!
.
... you sir are quite frankly not anywhere near the same league! ... his work (mostly unpaid) is second to none!
. your hollow slights
.. as one, who has had the pleasure of sitting beside Phil providing voluntary ATS for industry events (including airshows) ...are pathetic at best ... invective at worst, based on shallow, sycophant motherhood statements …. Drivel really! … even American ATC’s are questioning the way the rules are applied in your Utopia! .. Aussie patriot?? … neh …. Some other motive me thinks!
.
.. your continued accusations toward ATC's in this country are ridiculous! ... the options and improvements you bemoan have been repeated time and time again! .. ignore them if that suits you! ….. but then… well.. a 10 pilot is beyond question even in Bush (big boy) eyes, let alone Bonsai (Little Bush’s) eyes!.
.
.. if what we (Aussies vice American apologist’s) say is baseless ..... EXPLAIN WHY! ... no spin ... no motherhood statements .. just technical and procedural FACTS!
.
Re Bankstown
.
When?
.
- was 07 in use at SY?
- was 11 in use at BK?
- what was the weather doing?
- what was your flight plan track out of BK?
.
..I worked there for 6.5 years (recently) so bull will not fly!
.
.. and the motherhood statements ...OK... do US controllers 'separate' IFR?
.
.. go on Guru .. by how much an under what circumstances?
.
.. and if you think other revelations in this place will give you and your mate licence to run amuck .... think again!
.
.. OH.... but we all play the man and not the ball ….. look in the mirror .. countenance … anything else????
.
...Next .. ferkwit!
.
J430 … yep … mate, you .....and a select few
are a special bread (QLD’nder ), most of us ATS personnel spend our lives trying to wind-up .... QLD customers!! .. .... oh the power .. but you all know you get the best track outa town (DCT YSCB)
... a good natured wind -up!! Good to see those Aussie aircraft are in the hands of people who can't spell as well as my eleven year old.
Personal enough for you Icarus?
I'm in one of those moods
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.. fanks fr prividing shuvch comtrehensif ansores two the teknicle stuf!
... I am sure when Dick is made head of some organisation or authority after the next federal election, you will be the first he calls ..... bring it on I say
.
haf eh lubly dey dik lid
If I was sent down there to sort this crap out, I'd weed your type out in a minute mate!
.
haf eh lubly dey dik lid
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Stop Feeding The
guys, guys guys....
I'm beginning to think that Dick makes better and more coherent arguments than Chris. At least Dick doesn't type ANGRY!
Chris, it is a requirement that ATC use the phrase "caution wake turbulence" in certain situations, and in others provide a wake turbulence separation standard as detailed in AIP and MATS.
The reason.... maybe some pilots forget about wake turbulence, just like they forget to select gear down, or flaps down, or get too high or too fast on final. In other words, ATC is part of the Safety Management System for aviation. Not, as you seem to see ATC, as some sort of road block to the free spirit of a pilot, or some sort of big brother.
It's not 1984, its 2006. You're thinking is 2 decades behind the time. ADS-B, Multilateration, Mode-S, CPDLC, etc are here. When next you come to Oz you may hear the term "Surveillance Service Terminated" and I'll bet you wonder what it means?
I'm beginning to think that Dick makes better and more coherent arguments than Chris. At least Dick doesn't type ANGRY!
...and no, I don't need big brother to tell me to stay clear of wake turbulence.
The reason.... maybe some pilots forget about wake turbulence, just like they forget to select gear down, or flaps down, or get too high or too fast on final. In other words, ATC is part of the Safety Management System for aviation. Not, as you seem to see ATC, as some sort of road block to the free spirit of a pilot, or some sort of big brother.
It's not 1984, its 2006. You're thinking is 2 decades behind the time. ADS-B, Multilateration, Mode-S, CPDLC, etc are here. When next you come to Oz you may hear the term "Surveillance Service Terminated" and I'll bet you wonder what it means?
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Me type angry? You guys are making me laugh, not get pissed off! You guys are hilarious!
Surveillance Service terminated...yeah, I've been hearing that in Canada since 1993. Do you think you guys invented micro-management?!
I keep hearing these assertions that I'm some kind of hired gun for Dick Smith.
Nope!
Haven't seen the guy in about two years and haven't even spoken to him on the phone.
So, whenever somebody has a dissenting view, I guess it's easier to yell, "Traitor! traitor!!"
Surveillance Service terminated...yeah, I've been hearing that in Canada since 1993. Do you think you guys invented micro-management?!
I keep hearing these assertions that I'm some kind of hired gun for Dick Smith.
Nope!
Haven't seen the guy in about two years and haven't even spoken to him on the phone.
So, whenever somebody has a dissenting view, I guess it's easier to yell, "Traitor! traitor!!"
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I think Chris (like many pilots- especially Dick) doesn't really understand ATC- nor is it reasonable to expect them to. In much the same way that Dick doesn't understand screen-scale, and one's ability to provide service based upon that scale, Chris doesn't understand delay and it's absorbtion.
If you look at how JFK deals with delay, they do not tend to use a hold solution, such as Heathrow (or SY) does. They use extended finals. I have seen them out to 90nm or more- and anyone can watch via the web at various places. Whilst controllers will understand this may produce a perception that US controllers are somehow producing less delay (because they hold far less), it will also give rise to statements such as those in the article relating to low-level vectoring costs.
It also demonstrates why people with Chris' level of understanding think they can fire all the trouble-makers and do it better. Genius.
If you look at how JFK deals with delay, they do not tend to use a hold solution, such as Heathrow (or SY) does. They use extended finals. I have seen them out to 90nm or more- and anyone can watch via the web at various places. Whilst controllers will understand this may produce a perception that US controllers are somehow producing less delay (because they hold far less), it will also give rise to statements such as those in the article relating to low-level vectoring costs.
It also demonstrates why people with Chris' level of understanding think they can fire all the trouble-makers and do it better. Genius.
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In over 800 approaches and landings at JFK I have never seen an extended final or situation based scenario that you have just concocted. You Sir, clearly don't have a clue and have never observed JFK!
By comparison I can remember holding over the West Pymble locator in a Mooney at almost 9:00 pm at night in the late 1980s.
Alright, I'll call a personal truce here if you guys can remain civil in kind.
Icarus brought up an important point about infrastructure. I don't know why you would only have one runway serving 27 aircraft in 45 minutes at Brisbane and I don't know why the situation has become so dire that aircraft are being left on taxiways for lack of apron space, but I think it's a good place to start.
I'm not a big fan of Land and Hold Short operations, and I'm sure you are used to using simultaneous crossing runways, so I'm sure that possibility has been exhausted. There's no way out of it, you're going have to start a big public works program to get the airports expanded.
Something also has to be done about the antagonistic culture that has now become part of being an Australian controller. The apology sticky on the top of the Dunnunder Godzone is indicative of a pervasive behaviour that we have seen on these boards for several years now. You all seem to struggle for answers when confronted and resort to personal attacks without source or foundation. I'm sure you guys think this makes you look smart, but looking back on some of your own threads, you all look pretty stupid doing this.
For one person, it cost how much to recognise this?
I don't need to defend my personal abilities or my personal integrity. I can still understand why we do a full-alignment on IRSs even though the FMS position is GPS backed, before going over water into RNP airspace, but I'm sure if you ever got to read a thread about training in Oz a few months back, before it got pulled there are plenty of people that don't! Training at all levels has fallen behind in Australia. You can't deny it, or we wouldn't be arguing about ways to reinvent the wheel.
I'm sure you guys all do good work, within the frame work, standards manuals and equipment that you've been offered to get the job done with. All I'm saying is that from an end user stand point it doesn't compare in ease or speed of operation to the rest of the world.
There are plenty of people and situations to believe, but the bottom line is that change is inevitable and I hope that we can all believe that any change must be made for the better.
By comparison I can remember holding over the West Pymble locator in a Mooney at almost 9:00 pm at night in the late 1980s.
Alright, I'll call a personal truce here if you guys can remain civil in kind.
Icarus brought up an important point about infrastructure. I don't know why you would only have one runway serving 27 aircraft in 45 minutes at Brisbane and I don't know why the situation has become so dire that aircraft are being left on taxiways for lack of apron space, but I think it's a good place to start.
I'm not a big fan of Land and Hold Short operations, and I'm sure you are used to using simultaneous crossing runways, so I'm sure that possibility has been exhausted. There's no way out of it, you're going have to start a big public works program to get the airports expanded.
Something also has to be done about the antagonistic culture that has now become part of being an Australian controller. The apology sticky on the top of the Dunnunder Godzone is indicative of a pervasive behaviour that we have seen on these boards for several years now. You all seem to struggle for answers when confronted and resort to personal attacks without source or foundation. I'm sure you guys think this makes you look smart, but looking back on some of your own threads, you all look pretty stupid doing this.
For one person, it cost how much to recognise this?
I don't need to defend my personal abilities or my personal integrity. I can still understand why we do a full-alignment on IRSs even though the FMS position is GPS backed, before going over water into RNP airspace, but I'm sure if you ever got to read a thread about training in Oz a few months back, before it got pulled there are plenty of people that don't! Training at all levels has fallen behind in Australia. You can't deny it, or we wouldn't be arguing about ways to reinvent the wheel.
I'm sure you guys all do good work, within the frame work, standards manuals and equipment that you've been offered to get the job done with. All I'm saying is that from an end user stand point it doesn't compare in ease or speed of operation to the rest of the world.
There are plenty of people and situations to believe, but the bottom line is that change is inevitable and I hope that we can all believe that any change must be made for the better.
Last edited by Chris Higgins; 2nd Dec 2006 at 01:49.
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Ferris said;
"also demonstrates why people with Chris' level of understanding think they can fire all the trouble-makers and do it better. Genius."
Firing trouble makers is a great idea as far as I'm concerned. People who can't work as part of a team and run around as a renegade on the taxpayers behalf have no place in public life.
"also demonstrates why people with Chris' level of understanding think they can fire all the trouble-makers and do it better. Genius."
Firing trouble makers is a great idea as far as I'm concerned. People who can't work as part of a team and run around as a renegade on the taxpayers behalf have no place in public life.
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In over 800 approaches and landings at JFK I have never seen an extended final or situation based scenario that you have just concocted.
You don't.
I did not "concoct" the way JFK handle their traffic. It is on the web for anyone, even you, to observe. How many times, before or after your 800 approaches, or on any other occasion, did you take the time to visit the controllers and observe (their very skillful) approach cell? Because, Sir, based on your statements here, and lack of understanding of ATC at JFK, or anywhere, I'll bet it was NEVER.
Your lack of appreciation of your lack of appreciation of how out of your depth you are is......funny. You are not the airspace messiah you believe you are. Lots of us have worked o/s.
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Ferris, I was reguarly in both the Tracon and the tower at JFK and on Long Island. It was part of my duties as an Executive Council Chairman for the Airline Pilots Association as a safety chairman and controller/pilot liaison.
The feeds that you speak of are from basic jet airways and low altitude VOR routes and did not extend for any more than about eight miles from the final.
Also, the last time I was in Sydney I was given the opportunity to visit your Air Services control centre in Mascot.
In addition any pilot can see the line of traffic on final, or for that matter on approach particuarly at night or on TCAS.
The feeds that you speak of are from basic jet airways and low altitude VOR routes and did not extend for any more than about eight miles from the final.
Also, the last time I was in Sydney I was given the opportunity to visit your Air Services control centre in Mascot.
In addition any pilot can see the line of traffic on final, or for that matter on approach particuarly at night or on TCAS.
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Then why do you understand so little about it? Whilst LGA is far worse, JFK's "8nm" is out to 40nm daily, and frequently further.
It's done differently to holds. The "ease of use" of the system is an entirely different thing. Surely your experience of the two systems allows you to see the cultural difference?
Please don't get sucked into thinking you see the "big picture' on TCAS? That's penalty box 101 stuff.
It's done differently to holds. The "ease of use" of the system is an entirely different thing. Surely your experience of the two systems allows you to see the cultural difference?
In addition any pilot can see the line of traffic on final, or for that matter on approach particuarly at night or on TCAS.
Last edited by ferris; 1st Dec 2006 at 12:31. Reason: add quote