Qantas SH EBA Latest Propaganda
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Qantas SH EBA Latest Propaganda
I have just received the letter from one of our ‘colleagues’ which was conveniently delivered to our company mailslots. It contains ‘his’ view of AIPA’s current handling of the SH EBA negotiations.
The trouble to me is the letter does not read like it is from him at all . I for one do not believe he is the author. The letter sounds so incredibly like all the other company rhetoric we receive and from what he has written he and I clearly did not attend the same briefing. Basically it reads as a blatant insult to our 3 hardworking SH reps, who contrary to what this ‘colleague’ would have us believe, have a measured and strategic approach to the situation at hand. The fact that a change of offer is forthcoming from the company is proof of their competency and I believe we must let them do their job with our full support.
I believe the letter is clearly the act of someone who remains desperate to discredit AIPA, which to me is a really clear indication that it is doing its job and that is what we want them to do.
The trouble to me is the letter does not read like it is from him at all . I for one do not believe he is the author. The letter sounds so incredibly like all the other company rhetoric we receive and from what he has written he and I clearly did not attend the same briefing. Basically it reads as a blatant insult to our 3 hardworking SH reps, who contrary to what this ‘colleague’ would have us believe, have a measured and strategic approach to the situation at hand. The fact that a change of offer is forthcoming from the company is proof of their competency and I believe we must let them do their job with our full support.
I believe the letter is clearly the act of someone who remains desperate to discredit AIPA, which to me is a really clear indication that it is doing its job and that is what we want them to do.
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I’m not sure whether on this occasion it directly emanated from the company oracle who lives in the Old Forrest, but to me the letter has the distinct aroma of involvement of at least one individual in the upper echelon. In particular it certainly smacks in similarity to other recent promulgations to the pilots, add that to the method of distribution of the letter and its not difficult to see a bigger picture of collusion.
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I tend to agree with Nemisis.
I went to a briefing and what was said in the letter is absolutely WRONG.
The boys have a well considered plan, it is NOT high risk and has nothing to do with the ACTU at all. Where does this come from I wonder....???
More desperate scaremongering by a nervous company scared of a united group. How else could he get these personal letters put in company mailslots???
DON'T LET THEM INTIMIDATE US.
I went to a briefing and what was said in the letter is absolutely WRONG.
The boys have a well considered plan, it is NOT high risk and has nothing to do with the ACTU at all. Where does this come from I wonder....???
More desperate scaremongering by a nervous company scared of a united group. How else could he get these personal letters put in company mailslots???
DON'T LET THEM INTIMIDATE US.
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Whilst I currently sit in long haul, it is certianly a fight we are all in...Your EBA is my future EBA, and my coming EBA hopefully your future.
As it stands we would be nuts to sign anything. The company will offer something to you guys in order to get you to say yes. Just remember the central tenet of Workchoices post collective agreement is that 90 days from expiry all conditions negotiated can be terminated.....
Given management's stellar employee relations I would personally not trust them as far as I could kick them...........
Hold the line fellas!
S/O briefings
A330 briefings
Now a sweetener to SH( it will come)
Who actually drives the company, Dixon et al?...I don't think so
We need do nothing.........
As it stands we would be nuts to sign anything. The company will offer something to you guys in order to get you to say yes. Just remember the central tenet of Workchoices post collective agreement is that 90 days from expiry all conditions negotiated can be terminated.....
Given management's stellar employee relations I would personally not trust them as far as I could kick them...........
Hold the line fellas!
S/O briefings
A330 briefings
Now a sweetener to SH( it will come)
Who actually drives the company, Dixon et al?...I don't think so
We need do nothing.........
Personal mail distributed in company mailslots is definitely forbidden by management.
I would expect any individual doing so to be reprimanded accordingly by the company!
I would expect any individual doing so to be reprimanded accordingly by the company!
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What I must say I have found heartening of recent times is the capacity demonstrated by my fellow pilots to see straight through the various attempts to attack those who represent us.
I believe the company oracle who lives in the Old Forrest has dined out on one to many glasses of red over the major victory of his career. Some years later having industrially evolved we see these tactics more clearly for what they are. Consequently I feel the oracle’s mystique has left him, his tactics are now outdated, quite ineffectual and he certainly does not seem to be providing value for money to those he advises anymore. He won’t like reading this of course, neither will his employer who in private moments has likely been having some sense of doubt about him for some time now. In particular I feel one very poorly executed move was the contracting of someone who once protected us, to apparently deliver us all to the company on a platter, a move that I believe has failed and has caused a colossal loss of corporate credibility.
In summary, my personal view is that this latest letter has been a very desperate, poor and extremely transparent attempt to turn around a complete failure to industrially deliver us to the company.
I believe the company oracle who lives in the Old Forrest has dined out on one to many glasses of red over the major victory of his career. Some years later having industrially evolved we see these tactics more clearly for what they are. Consequently I feel the oracle’s mystique has left him, his tactics are now outdated, quite ineffectual and he certainly does not seem to be providing value for money to those he advises anymore. He won’t like reading this of course, neither will his employer who in private moments has likely been having some sense of doubt about him for some time now. In particular I feel one very poorly executed move was the contracting of someone who once protected us, to apparently deliver us all to the company on a platter, a move that I believe has failed and has caused a colossal loss of corporate credibility.
In summary, my personal view is that this latest letter has been a very desperate, poor and extremely transparent attempt to turn around a complete failure to industrially deliver us to the company.
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Reading PPRuNe and Qrewroom is like watching Bill O'Reilly on Fox News. Extreme left and extreme right views, which results in the silent majority of "moderates" switching off. Which is why most pilots I fly with never read PPRuNe or Qrewroom. Which is why you only tend to read extreme views here.
Unlike anyone who has "contributed" to this thread thus far, I rang the author of the letter. I had never met him, his name being only vaguely familiar from the occasional tech log entry. We had a good talk. I listened to what he had to say. I take my hat off to him for having the guts to sign his name, provide his phone number, and invite conversation to work for a common goal.
I have also spoken to two of the three pilot reps negotiating. They have said the same things to me that the author of the letter did! And most B737 pilots like the fella's doing this thankless task.
I have also spoken to our B737 managers who have the "honour" of sitting on the other side of the table with the company negotiators. They have said the same things to me that the author of the letter and our reps did! And most B737 pilots like our B737 managers!
So, I've ascertained that B737 pilots, B737 reps and B737 managers are all working for and wanting largely the same thing.
It would appear to me from talking to the three parties above that the "problem" is at the top of the house at Qantas, and at AIPA. IMHO, until the new General Manager at AIPA learns that he is no longer a government lobbyist, and that the QF CEO is not an MP who reacts to public perception, as he cannot be elected out of office, and that AIPAs public is not the general public, but pilots who work for the CEO, then I don't think we will move forward. The CEO is the CEO is the CEO and you have to work with what you have.
To quote our former DCP, "if you continually thump someone over the head with a four by two, don't be surprised if he says get f*cked when you ask him for $10. Pilots do more damage to pilots than management ever could do".
For us moderates on the B737, we are now starting to feel left out in a war now being fought on ego's and legalese, which past experience shows we end up being the losers. That is all my new acquaintance who had the guts to put his name to a letter, was trying to say.
It is time to get out of courts, and to re-start a relationship with the office of the CEO. The new way is not working... the old way perhaps did not meet the expectations of the bar room policy makers, but it had successful runs on the board.
I have just realised that I have probably wasted half an hour of my life writing this and I retire again from posting for another couple of years... Bill O'Reilly is on soon anyway.
Unlike anyone who has "contributed" to this thread thus far, I rang the author of the letter. I had never met him, his name being only vaguely familiar from the occasional tech log entry. We had a good talk. I listened to what he had to say. I take my hat off to him for having the guts to sign his name, provide his phone number, and invite conversation to work for a common goal.
I have also spoken to two of the three pilot reps negotiating. They have said the same things to me that the author of the letter did! And most B737 pilots like the fella's doing this thankless task.
I have also spoken to our B737 managers who have the "honour" of sitting on the other side of the table with the company negotiators. They have said the same things to me that the author of the letter and our reps did! And most B737 pilots like our B737 managers!
So, I've ascertained that B737 pilots, B737 reps and B737 managers are all working for and wanting largely the same thing.
It would appear to me from talking to the three parties above that the "problem" is at the top of the house at Qantas, and at AIPA. IMHO, until the new General Manager at AIPA learns that he is no longer a government lobbyist, and that the QF CEO is not an MP who reacts to public perception, as he cannot be elected out of office, and that AIPAs public is not the general public, but pilots who work for the CEO, then I don't think we will move forward. The CEO is the CEO is the CEO and you have to work with what you have.
To quote our former DCP, "if you continually thump someone over the head with a four by two, don't be surprised if he says get f*cked when you ask him for $10. Pilots do more damage to pilots than management ever could do".
For us moderates on the B737, we are now starting to feel left out in a war now being fought on ego's and legalese, which past experience shows we end up being the losers. That is all my new acquaintance who had the guts to put his name to a letter, was trying to say.
It is time to get out of courts, and to re-start a relationship with the office of the CEO. The new way is not working... the old way perhaps did not meet the expectations of the bar room policy makers, but it had successful runs on the board.
I have just realised that I have probably wasted half an hour of my life writing this and I retire again from posting for another couple of years... Bill O'Reilly is on soon anyway.
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You are spot on Nemisis,
They have pushed a little too far...
You cant fool all the people, all the time. The hand has well and truly been overplayed, but there are a few believers steadfastly holding to the belief that management is looking after us!
Wait for the EBA sweetener for shorthaul!
If we are collectively dumb enough to fall for it, amazingly after the next EBA expires...."workchoices"
They have pushed a little too far...
You cant fool all the people, all the time. The hand has well and truly been overplayed, but there are a few believers steadfastly holding to the belief that management is looking after us!
Wait for the EBA sweetener for shorthaul!
If we are collectively dumb enough to fall for it, amazingly after the next EBA expires...."workchoices"
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I'm sure the vast majority of FO's & SO's who have seen their career aspirations evaporate might disagree.
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I wish you well in the future.
I can't get that scene from Wall Street out of my mind. It was only fiction...
BUD
I found out about the garage sale down at Bluestar. Why?
Gekko is taken by surprise.
GEKKO
Last night I read Rudy the story of Winnie the Pooh and the Honey pot. Know what happened: he stuck his nose in that honey pot once too often and got stung.
BUD
Maybe you ought to read him Pinocchio. You told me you were going to turn Bluestar around. Not upside down. You used me.
GEKKO
You're walking around blind without a cane, sport. A fool and his money are lucky to get together in the first place.
BUD
Why do you need to wreck this company?
GEKKO
Because it's wreckable. I took another look and I changed my mind.
BUD
If these people lose their jobs, nowhere to go. My father worked at Bluestar for twenty-four years. I gave 'em my word.
GEKKO
(hard)
It's all about bucks, kid, the rest is conversation...
(loosening)
Bud, you're still going to be president. And when the time comes, you'll parachute out a rich man. With the money you're going to make, your father won't have to work another day in his life.
BUD
Tell me, Gordon--when does it all end? How many yachts can you waterski behind? How much is enough?
GEKKO
Buddy, it's not a question of enough. It's a zero sum game, sport. Somebody wins and somebody loses. Money itself isn't lost or made, it's simply transferred from one perception to another. Like magic. That painting cost $60,000 10 years ago. I could sell it today for $600,000. The illusion has become real. And the more real it becomes, the more desperately they want it.
Capitalism at its finest.
BUD
(again)
How much is enough Gordon?
GEKKO
The richest one percent of this country owns half the country's wealth: 5 trillion dollars. One third of that comes from hard work, two thirds of it comes from inheritance, interest on interest accumulation to widows and idiot sons and what I do -- stock and real estate speculation. It's bull****. Ninety percent of the American people have little or no net worth. I create nothing; I own.
We make the rules, Buddy, the news, war, peace, famine, upheaval; the cost of a paper clip. (picking one up)
We pull the rabbit out of the hat while everybody else sits around their whole life wondering how we did it...
(crosses to Bud)
...you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy are you, Buddy? It's the free market.
You're one of us now...take advantage of it. You got the killer instinct, kid, stick with me. I got things to teach you...
BUD
Obviously...
I can't get that scene from Wall Street out of my mind. It was only fiction...
BUD
I found out about the garage sale down at Bluestar. Why?
Gekko is taken by surprise.
GEKKO
Last night I read Rudy the story of Winnie the Pooh and the Honey pot. Know what happened: he stuck his nose in that honey pot once too often and got stung.
BUD
Maybe you ought to read him Pinocchio. You told me you were going to turn Bluestar around. Not upside down. You used me.
GEKKO
You're walking around blind without a cane, sport. A fool and his money are lucky to get together in the first place.
BUD
Why do you need to wreck this company?
GEKKO
Because it's wreckable. I took another look and I changed my mind.
BUD
If these people lose their jobs, nowhere to go. My father worked at Bluestar for twenty-four years. I gave 'em my word.
GEKKO
(hard)
It's all about bucks, kid, the rest is conversation...
(loosening)
Bud, you're still going to be president. And when the time comes, you'll parachute out a rich man. With the money you're going to make, your father won't have to work another day in his life.
BUD
Tell me, Gordon--when does it all end? How many yachts can you waterski behind? How much is enough?
GEKKO
Buddy, it's not a question of enough. It's a zero sum game, sport. Somebody wins and somebody loses. Money itself isn't lost or made, it's simply transferred from one perception to another. Like magic. That painting cost $60,000 10 years ago. I could sell it today for $600,000. The illusion has become real. And the more real it becomes, the more desperately they want it.
Capitalism at its finest.
BUD
(again)
How much is enough Gordon?
GEKKO
The richest one percent of this country owns half the country's wealth: 5 trillion dollars. One third of that comes from hard work, two thirds of it comes from inheritance, interest on interest accumulation to widows and idiot sons and what I do -- stock and real estate speculation. It's bull****. Ninety percent of the American people have little or no net worth. I create nothing; I own.
We make the rules, Buddy, the news, war, peace, famine, upheaval; the cost of a paper clip. (picking one up)
We pull the rabbit out of the hat while everybody else sits around their whole life wondering how we did it...
(crosses to Bud)
...you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy are you, Buddy? It's the free market.
You're one of us now...take advantage of it. You got the killer instinct, kid, stick with me. I got things to teach you...
BUD
Obviously...
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I believe Wall Street was a great movie indeed, whilst it was fiction one line from the movie that I believe is a matter of empirical fact was as I recall, “Money never sleeps”.
'Hypothetically' speaking of course, rest assured that those that wish to make more of it, could attempt to do so, by eroding the conditions of a legacy carrier, by for example exporting its flying into a lower cost entity, then only to rebrand it back to the original one, when the few remaining in that legacy carrier are vanquished. The main ingredient for success in such a plan would be to render the moderates impotent (I have heard someone sees us that way) with propaganda so they would do nothing to resist. That is, to do nothing, whilst the planning to achieve this was continued in the Old Forrest and implemented in stealth.
Now just to avoid any ‘potential’ for confusion, last nights edition of AIPA Insights said of the letter:
'Hypothetically' speaking of course, rest assured that those that wish to make more of it, could attempt to do so, by eroding the conditions of a legacy carrier, by for example exporting its flying into a lower cost entity, then only to rebrand it back to the original one, when the few remaining in that legacy carrier are vanquished. The main ingredient for success in such a plan would be to render the moderates impotent (I have heard someone sees us that way) with propaganda so they would do nothing to resist. That is, to do nothing, whilst the planning to achieve this was continued in the Old Forrest and implemented in stealth.
Originally posted by The Full Monty
“I have also spoken to two of the three pilot reps negotiating. They have said the same things to me that the author of the letter did! And most B737 pilots like the fella's doing this thankless task.”
“I have also spoken to two of the three pilot reps negotiating. They have said the same things to me that the author of the letter did! And most B737 pilots like the fella's doing this thankless task.”
SHORT HAUL
EBA Update by the Short Haul EBA Negotiating Team
Judging by the private letter placed into Company mail slots recently, it appears that some members may be confused as to how the Short Haul EBA Team intends to progress future negotiations, even after the briefings.
We would like to address the major concerns:
The statements made in the letter were incorrect.
EBA Update by the Short Haul EBA Negotiating Team
Judging by the private letter placed into Company mail slots recently, it appears that some members may be confused as to how the Short Haul EBA Team intends to progress future negotiations, even after the briefings.
We would like to address the major concerns:
- We are not a test case for Long Haul. Short Haul talks are simply before Long Haul and one of the first Agreements under the new WorkChoices legislation, and there is nothing anyone can do about that.
- The ACTU has nothing to do with our negotiations and never has.
- There is nothing high risk about considering all future ramifications of the new legislation.
The statements made in the letter were incorrect.
Nunc est bibendum
We had a relationship with the CEO. It brought us Jetstar. They were having confidential negotiations with Impulse whilst turnining up to meetings with QF pilots and telling us that we would have a seat at the table. This is the same CEO that reportedly referred to QF pilots as 'soft cocks'.
As for the analogy of belting the CEO with a two by four then I think some are deluded about when the belting started. QF the company took to 'belting' the pilot body a long time before the pilot body decided to challenge them- be it in court, the newspapers or in discussions. The pilot body has been saying for a long time that we want good things for the group. We asked for a seat at the J* table and got nothing (and that was when we had a good relationship). We got an MoU to be able to fly J* aircraft that is worthless with company personnel telling us that they'll never let it work effectively because the mainline pilot body would 'pollute' the culture of J*.
I agree that the courts aren't the way to go but forgive me if I think that having a relationship with the CEO has delivered anything other than angst for the pilot body in recent years.
As for the analogy of belting the CEO with a two by four then I think some are deluded about when the belting started. QF the company took to 'belting' the pilot body a long time before the pilot body decided to challenge them- be it in court, the newspapers or in discussions. The pilot body has been saying for a long time that we want good things for the group. We asked for a seat at the J* table and got nothing (and that was when we had a good relationship). We got an MoU to be able to fly J* aircraft that is worthless with company personnel telling us that they'll never let it work effectively because the mainline pilot body would 'pollute' the culture of J*.
I agree that the courts aren't the way to go but forgive me if I think that having a relationship with the CEO has delivered anything other than angst for the pilot body in recent years.
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Keg, I forgive you.
I also acknowledge that you will never change your views and I respect that.
I also respect that it is your type of views (loudly and often expressed) that current AIPA have formed their bar room policies around.
I didn't apply to join Impulse. They have had good growth and that is fantastic for the people who work there. I didn't apply to join Sunstate, who have had good growth and that is fantastic for the people who work there (and I don't hear any human outcry from fellow Qantas pilots for the left seat of a Q400 and I can't distinguish the issue of "must have Jetstar" v's no interest in Sunstate, except one flies a jet. Ah, that is it !!).
I did apply to join Qantas and we have had great growth. I did not join as a Captain, or with any guarantee that I would eventually become one. Subject to a vacancy in the company that I joined, within the seniority system of the company that I joined, if I was operationally qualified, then it probably would occur. One day. It could take 20 years, or it could take 6 years. There is no timetable. If I can get through a 30 something year career without taking a demotion, without being retrenched, without taking a big hit in pay, then I will be more than satisfied and everything else will be remembered with fond reflection.
I look at Jetstar, or Sunstate, or Eastern, or Jetconnect, with the same view as I looked at the RAN FAA and AAAvn. Same "group", different arm, with my role to play in the arm that I joined. I may not have liked one or two CO's I worked for, but I respected the relationship, and my role in the relationship. If Qantas pilots put as much energy into making "our" business right, for our "CO", as they do incessantly going on about an arm they do not even work for, then we would all be much better off.
But that is not going to happen. I concede that. Lucky for me that there are only two of us on the flight deck of a B737, and that the vast majority of the Captains in my base think like me. 
Good bye.
I also acknowledge that you will never change your views and I respect that.
I also respect that it is your type of views (loudly and often expressed) that current AIPA have formed their bar room policies around.
I didn't apply to join Impulse. They have had good growth and that is fantastic for the people who work there. I didn't apply to join Sunstate, who have had good growth and that is fantastic for the people who work there (and I don't hear any human outcry from fellow Qantas pilots for the left seat of a Q400 and I can't distinguish the issue of "must have Jetstar" v's no interest in Sunstate, except one flies a jet. Ah, that is it !!).
I did apply to join Qantas and we have had great growth. I did not join as a Captain, or with any guarantee that I would eventually become one. Subject to a vacancy in the company that I joined, within the seniority system of the company that I joined, if I was operationally qualified, then it probably would occur. One day. It could take 20 years, or it could take 6 years. There is no timetable. If I can get through a 30 something year career without taking a demotion, without being retrenched, without taking a big hit in pay, then I will be more than satisfied and everything else will be remembered with fond reflection.
I look at Jetstar, or Sunstate, or Eastern, or Jetconnect, with the same view as I looked at the RAN FAA and AAAvn. Same "group", different arm, with my role to play in the arm that I joined. I may not have liked one or two CO's I worked for, but I respected the relationship, and my role in the relationship. If Qantas pilots put as much energy into making "our" business right, for our "CO", as they do incessantly going on about an arm they do not even work for, then we would all be much better off.
But that is not going to happen. I concede that.
Lucky for me that there are only two of us on the flight deck of a B737, and that the vast majority of the Captains in my base think like me. Good bye.
Don't get too worked up.
Jetstar Int. has not proven itself yet and has a similar feel to when Aussie started up and just look at where that operation is now! Marketing was an issue then and look at the millions that JQ are pumping in to ensure the same thing doesn't happen again.
Sure the emphasis is on JQ at the moment but that will die down. But GD must keep QF expanding because of it's fixed cost base. This will happen eventually.
Patience is a virtue.
If everyone does their job including GD then all will be happy. The old QF is long gone and the new QF must evolve or die (re: Ansett).
Concentrate on keeping what is in the award or the best you can 'cause that is the best pay and conditions in the country now.
Jetstar Int. has not proven itself yet and has a similar feel to when Aussie started up and just look at where that operation is now! Marketing was an issue then and look at the millions that JQ are pumping in to ensure the same thing doesn't happen again.
Sure the emphasis is on JQ at the moment but that will die down. But GD must keep QF expanding because of it's fixed cost base. This will happen eventually.
Patience is a virtue.
If everyone does their job including GD then all will be happy. The old QF is long gone and the new QF must evolve or die (re: Ansett).
Concentrate on keeping what is in the award or the best you can 'cause that is the best pay and conditions in the country now.
Nunc est bibendum
). I'm more than happy to review my thoughts and beliefs on any and all issues and have changed them when I felt that it was required. I'm very comfortable with the concept of what is good for the 'group' should also be 'good' for me in the long term. However I don't see any wisdom in locking out or disenfranchising a large swathe of the pilot body- and that applies equally to QF and AIPA. Your military analogy isn't bad except for one thing. You joined the RAAF- part of the ADF. Six years later the ADF took over the RNZAF (work with me here) and decided that they preferred their cost base to do a lot of the work formerly done by the RAAF. The RAAF has stagnated, no promotion, no expansion. The ADF has decided that many tasks formerly done by the RAAF are better done by the RNZAF and are transferring equipment to them. This has meant that many RAAF personnel are doing little/ nothing whilst the RNZAF is expanding greatly. We have duplicate command structures, duplicates of policy and procedures, duplicates of virtually everything. The ADF is not talking to the RAAF and despite an MoU to allow RAAF crews to do an 'exchange' with the RNZAF has decided to stop that happening lest the RAAF crews pollute the 'culture' of the RNZAF. So in that respect I still give my loyalty to my CO (who isn't a bad bloke) and CDR of the FEG and do the best I can at the tasks I'm given but I think the CDF is not a nice piece of work. I also have some thoughts about the government who is over seeing the CDF (the board in QFs case). I think it's a waste that you have very competent and very capable crew who have dedicated their lives to the ADF but those who chose to serve elsewhere are given opportuntieis that are being actively denied to those who chose to serve here first. There is nothing we can do about the ADF 'favouring' the RNZAF in this case but it doesn't make it 'right'. It also doesn't mean that we lay down and say 'ah well, I should've signed on for the RNZAF twelve years ago'. Don't ge me wrong, this isn't whether or not the ADF should have just one arm, this is about having TWO arms doing EXACTLY the same thing.
I'll note too that it has taken me 12 years to get to my current level of disengagement. I'm actually quite easy to lead. If treated with respect I respond with respect. If treated with disdain is it any suprise that I respond with disdain? Even Wayne reckons that if you thump a bloke with a 2x4 it should be no suprise when he doesn't respond as you'd like!
Given that I don't even know what the views of the original writer of the letter are it's hard to argue whether or not I even agree with them. If you read my response to Wayne's comments on Qrewroom you'll see that I actually agree with Wayne on how to negotiate and then ask how it is that we do that when the other side does not. You'll note that I also asked if the original writer of the letter would post it up on Qrewroom for the rest of us. Until then I'm discussing things a bit one sided however I'll come back to my point- both here and on Qrewroom- it is difficult to negotiate and engage with someone who isn't playing by the same set of rules.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: adelaide
Posts: 25
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Except we haven't.
The entire group is in a time of "unprecendented" growth (our chiefs own words).
Mainline however is not growing, and promotion is stagnant.
The last period of growth in the mid 80s (which according to our chief was not as good as the one we are now in) saw commands occur in 10 years.
For those that joined at the biginning of the current growth period (mid 90s) commands are looking at being 16 - 18 years. For new joiners it could well be over 20 years.
You call that good growth?
Are you insane?
