Qantas pilots to agree to pay freeze?
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There will be no shortage of kids wanting to punt a light twin around for $100k. Better get used to it, lower $$$$$ remuneration contracts are the way of the future for airlines employees as the companies attempt to exist and survive under rising fuel and aviation costs.
And yeah, let me just look at my notes here of the last few years of QF profit margins.......hmmmm.......geez......they're only just surviving aren't they? Gosh, tetering on the brink of bankruptcy!
Damn, you just beat me to it Sonny! Well, maybe he will be more aware of his logical fallacy if it's pointed out twice!
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Yep, you're right there DutchRoll, things must be 'BAD'...
Geoff only got 7 million to sign up again !
Sol made 9 mill and his share price is absolutley @@#$%%^ !!!
Geoff only got 7 million to sign up again !
Sol made 9 mill and his share price is absolutley @@#$%%^ !!!
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What a crack up!!!
Sunny Jim and Dutch Rolly Polly,
What a crack up. You guys must be linked to your own local area network (LAN). The prophecy I espouse actually comes from many of your own QF Ranks. Straight from the horses mouth from 3 senior QF Captains at the last BBQ. No Qantas is not about to roll inverted and pull through however rationalisation is the dirty word of the 00's, again these are not my words, these are the words from senior guys in your ranks. They are also of the opinion that buying a job and paying fro your own endorsements will only result in ever spiralling vertical circles up peoples own arse h - - es. Gives management more control and keeps the new guys in the poor house longer.
Good luck with the whole game.
Max
What a crack up. You guys must be linked to your own local area network (LAN). The prophecy I espouse actually comes from many of your own QF Ranks. Straight from the horses mouth from 3 senior QF Captains at the last BBQ. No Qantas is not about to roll inverted and pull through however rationalisation is the dirty word of the 00's, again these are not my words, these are the words from senior guys in your ranks. They are also of the opinion that buying a job and paying fro your own endorsements will only result in ever spiralling vertical circles up peoples own arse h - - es. Gives management more control and keeps the new guys in the poor house longer.
Good luck with the whole game.
Max
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The argument in my previous post still stands uncontested.
So you went to a BBQ. There were people at it. Oh, yeah, that's right - there are unfortunately a small number of senior Qantas captains who have already seen the good times, will retire fairly soon, and could not give a teeny weeny sh** about what will happen to those of us who have many years to go! (yeah I've actually spoken to a couple of them, and it's a depressing experience)
So you went to a BBQ. There were people at it. Oh, yeah, that's right - there are unfortunately a small number of senior Qantas captains who have already seen the good times, will retire fairly soon, and could not give a teeny weeny sh** about what will happen to those of us who have many years to go! (yeah I've actually spoken to a couple of them, and it's a depressing experience)
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Back to Waratah Nat Park for you Sunny
Sunny Jim,
Just passing on the good oil. Since you FAILED your last aircew med hearing test, I'll say it again, these are not my words these are your industry buds. Scoring points was never my intent, just passing on what will hopefully never raise its head in Oz airline aviation work place practices.
Mate you almost raised my heart rate above 45 BPM, however, the easiest way to look like a dick h - - d is to argue with one. Hence I'm off to the next BBQ.
Love my BBQ's.
Arrrrrrrugah!!!!!!
Cred? 1g env, S & L, Short haul, light twin-What am I missing????, hanging out with Tony Bonner at Camp Freddie?
Max
Just passing on the good oil. Since you FAILED your last aircew med hearing test, I'll say it again, these are not my words these are your industry buds. Scoring points was never my intent, just passing on what will hopefully never raise its head in Oz airline aviation work place practices.
Mate you almost raised my heart rate above 45 BPM, however, the easiest way to look like a dick h - - d is to argue with one. Hence I'm off to the next BBQ.
Love my BBQ's.
Arrrrrrrugah!!!!!!
Cred? 1g env, S & L, Short haul, light twin-What am I missing????, hanging out with Tony Bonner at Camp Freddie?
Max
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What the @#@k! Where do you think your coming from Kransky?
You want to talk about fellow members in the group destroying conditions for others. How about our group in QLD undercutting Easterns just so they could fly the new Dash. Get a grip.
Any decision made by the 737 group will be made to help themselves and rightly so. For all they will have to do is look to see how the rest of the group is undercutting eachother and wonder how cheap you would fly the 737 for if offered.
My bet is you would do it for less than Jet*. So if you and I get screwed from the decision, bad luck. This is aviation in all its glory and if we dont like it, then we can all go overseas were apparantley there is a shortage.
You want to talk about fellow members in the group destroying conditions for others. How about our group in QLD undercutting Easterns just so they could fly the new Dash. Get a grip.
Any decision made by the 737 group will be made to help themselves and rightly so. For all they will have to do is look to see how the rest of the group is undercutting eachother and wonder how cheap you would fly the 737 for if offered.
My bet is you would do it for less than Jet*. So if you and I get screwed from the decision, bad luck. This is aviation in all its glory and if we dont like it, then we can all go overseas were apparantley there is a shortage.
But sadly Riddick, there is no shortage of Australian pilots abroad who: break ranks, scab, undercut at rates that make third world pilots shudder and even drop expatriate packages so they can get into a shiny jet ( and it doesn't always have to be shiny ). Australian pilots are the scurge of the industry and we make the Kiwis look good.
I started shaking my head at the drongos of Virgin Blue, who paid for their endorsement and then worked for low pay rates, with no overtime and consequential to all this, no lifestyle. It's just an Australian thing, a by-product of a general aviation mentality and 1989 perhaps, where great gains were made my opportunists.
The pilot shortage ( supposed ) abroad will me countered in someway, by airlines basing Australians in Australia, on the poor pay and conditions that have been created locally by VB, J*, NJS and the like.
I started shaking my head at the drongos of Virgin Blue, who paid for their endorsement and then worked for low pay rates, with no overtime and consequential to all this, no lifestyle. It's just an Australian thing, a by-product of a general aviation mentality and 1989 perhaps, where great gains were made my opportunists.
The pilot shortage ( supposed ) abroad will me countered in someway, by airlines basing Australians in Australia, on the poor pay and conditions that have been created locally by VB, J*, NJS and the like.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 12th Oct 2006 at 02:40.
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*Global fleet doubles (additional 17,600 units) 2005-2025: BOEING (pdf) page 6.
*Working population will stall in Australia: Dept Family & Community Services
Boeing was quoted several months ago in The Australian (Aviation section) suggesting the global pilot demand over the next 20 years is approx 18,000 per year & current training rate is 5,000. You do the maths.
Yes, airline managements have played a good game with the hand they were dealt until now, however they cannot create pilots out of thin air. They cannot hold back the tide, no matter what IR laws are drafted in their favour. Not even well intentioned governments can change demographics.
The short term will be challenging for those alrealy deeply involved in the industry. Longer term, however someone is going to have to spend a Sh#tload of money to train enough crew just to replace those retiring, let alone expansion.
Over the last 10 years I suspect the "dream" that was aviation has been replaced by the "dream" that is Macquarie Bank et al as corporate pay heads for the stratosphere.
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N20
Awesome post, it is economics 101. It is a great snow job concocted by politicians and ably assisted by Dixon et al.
The simple reality is that a slab of Australia's workforce will retire in the next
5-10 years. (Given that every empire has it's natural demise, perhaps ours is in decline). The impact of this will be seen across all aspects of our society. It will impact the property market, the stock market even retail markets. We have not seen changes like this in the history of the western world.....
Dixon and Joyce will not be able to turn back this tide.
Awesome post, it is economics 101. It is a great snow job concocted by politicians and ably assisted by Dixon et al.
The simple reality is that a slab of Australia's workforce will retire in the next
5-10 years. (Given that every empire has it's natural demise, perhaps ours is in decline). The impact of this will be seen across all aspects of our society. It will impact the property market, the stock market even retail markets. We have not seen changes like this in the history of the western world.....
Dixon and Joyce will not be able to turn back this tide.
N2O
Good post, however........... in an Australian context let us consider!
There will never be a pilot shortage in Australia because of GA and a relatively large military aviation.
In terms of preserving QF conditions of service, we haven't even begun to consider expatriate Australian pilots who want to repatriate in the upcoming years.There would conservatively be 5000 plus, highly qualified and who could meet any spike in demand for Australian pilots at home ( look at 89 or the VB set up ). At the very least, financially, they would have a house paid off in Oz, but most I know are worth between 2 and 80 million AUD.
J* pay, tax breaks ( whether self-induced whilst abroad or government reform ) and a semblance of a lifestyle would bring home enough to start a QF size airline a few times over.
Don't kid yourselves. Relying on demographics or inapplicable ( to Australia ) market forces isn't going to save Australian pilots from deteriorating pay!
Good post, however........... in an Australian context let us consider!
There will never be a pilot shortage in Australia because of GA and a relatively large military aviation.
In terms of preserving QF conditions of service, we haven't even begun to consider expatriate Australian pilots who want to repatriate in the upcoming years.There would conservatively be 5000 plus, highly qualified and who could meet any spike in demand for Australian pilots at home ( look at 89 or the VB set up ). At the very least, financially, they would have a house paid off in Oz, but most I know are worth between 2 and 80 million AUD.
J* pay, tax breaks ( whether self-induced whilst abroad or government reform ) and a semblance of a lifestyle would bring home enough to start a QF size airline a few times over.
Don't kid yourselves. Relying on demographics or inapplicable ( to Australia ) market forces isn't going to save Australian pilots from deteriorating pay!
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Why the expats won't come home
I don't think many expats will be comming home if they have to give half their Superannuation to the government, this is show stopper. See HERE.
That's one avenue to repatriate wealth. There are many means.
I'm not playing Devil's Advocate here. But I believe airline management will be one step ahead of Australian pilots- and if they ever need to, will bring home the masses for J* pay and a lure of lifestyle.
I'm not playing Devil's Advocate here. But I believe airline management will be one step ahead of Australian pilots- and if they ever need to, will bring home the masses for J* pay and a lure of lifestyle.
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"The freight industry can address its driver shortage partly by updating a payment system akin to that for pieceworkers"
Chris Mullett (editor PowerToque Magazine)
...
"The increasing level of professionalism required to drive a multicombination B-double or B-triple should result in annual pay rates being set at about $85,000 and $100,000 respectively, commensurate with the responsibility and skill required.
Then the industry can improve its image, showing a high degree of professionalism, knowledge and skill required in today's freight transport. This in turn will attract drivers with the right attitudes and skill sets for the industry"
The Australian Financial Review, Freight & transport special report 12 Oct 2006
I'm pretty confident that the big trucking companies were "one step ahead" of their drivers too, yet they are obviously having trouble recruiting. I'm sure the training is not nearly as expensive as CPL/ Jet endorement combination.
I agree with you, there will always be a "lifestyle discount" that will be applied for the privilage of paying tax in Oz. However, as the more correct term experience shortage begins to park aeroplanes parked against the fence, overseas operators will have to start increasing their T&C. I believe other operators basing crews in Oz is one thing that really does worry QF (market forces). Currently we have an effective monopsony [wikipedia], however basings would change that.
Just as some expats will return with a sack full of booty, others will depart. Whilst Australia is a great place, many of the 750,000 Oz disporia (source Goodweekend, recent article) decided that they would prefer to live elsewhere for a large number of reasons.
Whispers are that the J* A330 expat recruitment response has been "underwelming", despite certain public statements. Only time will tell.
Chris Mullett (editor PowerToque Magazine)
...
"The increasing level of professionalism required to drive a multicombination B-double or B-triple should result in annual pay rates being set at about $85,000 and $100,000 respectively, commensurate with the responsibility and skill required.
Then the industry can improve its image, showing a high degree of professionalism, knowledge and skill required in today's freight transport. This in turn will attract drivers with the right attitudes and skill sets for the industry"
The Australian Financial Review, Freight & transport special report 12 Oct 2006
I'm pretty confident that the big trucking companies were "one step ahead" of their drivers too, yet they are obviously having trouble recruiting. I'm sure the training is not nearly as expensive as CPL/ Jet endorement combination.
I agree with you, there will always be a "lifestyle discount" that will be applied for the privilage of paying tax in Oz. However, as the more correct term experience shortage begins to park aeroplanes parked against the fence, overseas operators will have to start increasing their T&C. I believe other operators basing crews in Oz is one thing that really does worry QF (market forces). Currently we have an effective monopsony [wikipedia], however basings would change that.
Just as some expats will return with a sack full of booty, others will depart. Whilst Australia is a great place, many of the 750,000 Oz disporia (source Goodweekend, recent article) decided that they would prefer to live elsewhere for a large number of reasons.
Whispers are that the J* A330 expat recruitment response has been "underwelming", despite certain public statements. Only time will tell.
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GA all over again
Are you blokes all living in fairyland???
Most of you are trying to figure out how to get more MUNNY. So are the airlines. And the flying schools. And everyone has a story which they think will influence things in their favour.
It will all be OK next year. There will be a big shortage of pilots. The flying schools have been saying that for decades. But it won't happen this year. Somehow, next year never seems to get here.
And the airlines are trying to steal each others pilots. Or steal them from the Air Force. Or get them to go and get lots of training and experience in GA.
It's cheaper and easier that way.
And only in Australia?
Let's look. In recent times I have spoken to a pilot who "purchased" 300 hours of 737 FO time, with an Asian airline, and found himself out of a job at 350 hours.
Another had five years time in a Lear jet in the USA, including about a year as Captain.
These two were back in Australia, looking for a job in Central Australia, flying piston engined aircraft.
Another young man, a practising CPL, MECIR with about 1200 hours went off to the UK where he was going to pay 60,000 english pounds for a DHC-8 course.
These people get desparate, when they have spent lots of MUNNY they have not got, to get their training. They will do almost anything to reverse the cash flow. You will not get them to hold out for better pay.
The airlines love it. And most of todays Australian airline pilots have helped the airlines make it that way. What they did to GA is now happening to airlines. It is not "GA thinking". It is "Australian pilot thinking", and now it has started, it appears that it is unstoppable.
There may be a shortage of experienced captains who will work cheap. Is there?
I think there are still some respectable airlines in the world that work with their wannabies from an early stage and then give them a long term career. But it appears that there are some organisations out there exploiting new pilots and dumping them, then exploiting more.
It's all to do with MUNNY. Such is aviation. You reap what you sow. And the seeds are sown.
Most of you are trying to figure out how to get more MUNNY. So are the airlines. And the flying schools. And everyone has a story which they think will influence things in their favour.
It will all be OK next year. There will be a big shortage of pilots. The flying schools have been saying that for decades. But it won't happen this year. Somehow, next year never seems to get here.
And the airlines are trying to steal each others pilots. Or steal them from the Air Force. Or get them to go and get lots of training and experience in GA.
It's cheaper and easier that way.
And only in Australia?
Let's look. In recent times I have spoken to a pilot who "purchased" 300 hours of 737 FO time, with an Asian airline, and found himself out of a job at 350 hours.
Another had five years time in a Lear jet in the USA, including about a year as Captain.
These two were back in Australia, looking for a job in Central Australia, flying piston engined aircraft.
Another young man, a practising CPL, MECIR with about 1200 hours went off to the UK where he was going to pay 60,000 english pounds for a DHC-8 course.
These people get desparate, when they have spent lots of MUNNY they have not got, to get their training. They will do almost anything to reverse the cash flow. You will not get them to hold out for better pay.
The airlines love it. And most of todays Australian airline pilots have helped the airlines make it that way. What they did to GA is now happening to airlines. It is not "GA thinking". It is "Australian pilot thinking", and now it has started, it appears that it is unstoppable.
There may be a shortage of experienced captains who will work cheap. Is there?
I think there are still some respectable airlines in the world that work with their wannabies from an early stage and then give them a long term career. But it appears that there are some organisations out there exploiting new pilots and dumping them, then exploiting more.
It's all to do with MUNNY. Such is aviation. You reap what you sow. And the seeds are sown.
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The bitter harvest
Posted by air_med in another thread
"Bushy.
Like you I would have been a surprise if there were not many applicants lining up for a RFDS gig, but sadly it is true.
I know for a fact that one RFDS base put an ad out a few weeks ago and only got 2 replies, did the same thing then next week and got none.
Wally hit the nail on the head, they are taking single engine time guys with low multi time, outback and remote experience is low, but are prepared to work with and help the new one's out. The thing that does make us angry is that, having a doctor in the back and a nurse reading a book on along night home and the wage bill for the 2 of them is 300,000, yet the poor guy up the front is just getting 52-55000. You would think with a country in high boom, that all RFDS bases, start hitting the goverment for more money to get extra equipment, able for bases to put on more pilots and staff, but no, they have to scrap the bottom of the barrell to make ends meet."
"THE NEW PARADISE FOR WORKERS
The Australian Editoral Friday 13 October 2006
Just as the 1990' was the decade that broke the back of inflation, so the first decade of the 21st century will go down as the time when the job market turned sharply in favour of labour. Yesterday's numbers confirmed unemployment at lows not seen since the optimism of the early Whitlam government. A generation of stubbornly high unemployment is giving way to chronic labour shortages, particularly for skilled labour. The frenzied demand for labour sparked by the China-driven resources boom is part of the equation. But we are now at the point where the supply of labour is taking a demographic step down, as the number of young job entrants falls at one end and the baby boomers move into retirement at the other. In short, the structural balance of power has moved in favour if labour. Australia has become the the sort of workers paradise that the pioneers of the frontier nation celebrated in the late 19th century.
..."
How about this one by Bendo from this thread
"I got out of the industry after Ansett - too many pilots available at my level (twin IFR Charter) and wise, I thought, to let the dust settle.
I kept instructing about 300 hours/year and I am working in the mining industry earning over $2,000/week for my 40 hours. Yes it is dirty and yes there is shift work... but it is also quite technical in parts and reasonably challenging.
With bu99er-all experience or qualifications I am earning close to that which the Mining Engineers are paid, and I go home each night without worrying about work. It is true for many professions - an old girlfriend is an Elec. Engineer and she designed & certified much of the lighting around the Olympic site in Sydney... AND YET she is paid half the salary of the tradesmen who installed it.
Is there a shortage of experienced pilots? Well after 5 years of applications I am suddenly getting offers of interview with those Regionals I always wanted to fly for. There is nothing about my application that has become more competitive - what other reason than a shortage of experienced drivers?
Will I uproot my family and leave the town that has become home (not to mention the reMUNeration), merely to drive turboprops, on the gamble that it might lead further up the tree? 
... go from $120k in the country to $45k in Sydney?"
Flying just aint sexy any more. The industry (generalisation) has none nothing to help its cause.
Bushy, your intuition about the aviation world may have come from a long career in the business, and I respect that. However, the next 30 years are not going to be a repetition of the last. Things are going to be very different.
"Bushy.
Like you I would have been a surprise if there were not many applicants lining up for a RFDS gig, but sadly it is true.
I know for a fact that one RFDS base put an ad out a few weeks ago and only got 2 replies, did the same thing then next week and got none.
Wally hit the nail on the head, they are taking single engine time guys with low multi time, outback and remote experience is low, but are prepared to work with and help the new one's out. The thing that does make us angry is that, having a doctor in the back and a nurse reading a book on along night home and the wage bill for the 2 of them is 300,000, yet the poor guy up the front is just getting 52-55000. You would think with a country in high boom, that all RFDS bases, start hitting the goverment for more money to get extra equipment, able for bases to put on more pilots and staff, but no, they have to scrap the bottom of the barrell to make ends meet."
"THE NEW PARADISE FOR WORKERS
The Australian Editoral Friday 13 October 2006
Just as the 1990' was the decade that broke the back of inflation, so the first decade of the 21st century will go down as the time when the job market turned sharply in favour of labour. Yesterday's numbers confirmed unemployment at lows not seen since the optimism of the early Whitlam government. A generation of stubbornly high unemployment is giving way to chronic labour shortages, particularly for skilled labour. The frenzied demand for labour sparked by the China-driven resources boom is part of the equation. But we are now at the point where the supply of labour is taking a demographic step down, as the number of young job entrants falls at one end and the baby boomers move into retirement at the other. In short, the structural balance of power has moved in favour if labour. Australia has become the the sort of workers paradise that the pioneers of the frontier nation celebrated in the late 19th century.
..."
How about this one by Bendo from this thread
"I got out of the industry after Ansett - too many pilots available at my level (twin IFR Charter) and wise, I thought, to let the dust settle.
I kept instructing about 300 hours/year and I am working in the mining industry earning over $2,000/week for my 40 hours. Yes it is dirty and yes there is shift work... but it is also quite technical in parts and reasonably challenging.
With bu99er-all experience or qualifications I am earning close to that which the Mining Engineers are paid, and I go home each night without worrying about work. It is true for many professions - an old girlfriend is an Elec. Engineer and she designed & certified much of the lighting around the Olympic site in Sydney... AND YET she is paid half the salary of the tradesmen who installed it.
Is there a shortage of experienced pilots? Well after 5 years of applications I am suddenly getting offers of interview with those Regionals I always wanted to fly for. There is nothing about my application that has become more competitive - what other reason than a shortage of experienced drivers?
Will I uproot my family and leave the town that has become home (not to mention the reMUNeration), merely to drive turboprops, on the gamble that it might lead further up the tree?
... go from $120k in the country to $45k in Sydney?"Flying just aint sexy any more. The industry (generalisation) has none nothing to help its cause.
Bushy, your intuition about the aviation world may have come from a long career in the business, and I respect that. However, the next 30 years are not going to be a repetition of the last. Things are going to be very different.