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With such an arrogant attitude, why would I even bother coming back here again! I understand the need for posting in the correct forums, but I don't see the need for the attitude.
Yeh yeh I am new and if I don't like it leave, but still!
Yeh yeh I am new and if I don't like it leave, but still!
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Aww! now come on guys, don't take it personally. No need to drop the bottom lip.
Every one needs a good bollicking every now and again. You may hate the Training Captain for it but he is only trying to make you a better pilot.
Same here.
I don't agree with everything Danny said or even the wy he said it but we could all do with a bit of proffesional direction and discretion when Pruning.
Far to many threads turn into bitch fights or pissing contests.
Danny: Your comments about this Forum or its users being insular is quite correct, but that is mainly because the entire Aviation industry in OZ is insular. Even it's national carrier QF is far to insular, but they are one of the oldest airlines if not the oldest and fly all over the world to the highest of standards. Australia is unique in it's evironment, culture, geography, demography, climate and career structures.
It is not like Europe at all, in fact it is bigger than Europe and as such it can be very difficult for locals to look beyond the beach and understand how the rest of the world likes to do things.
Pprune is such a great facillity for those all over the world and in particular our unworldly aviation brothers stuck in the bush in OZ. It has played a major part in career development for many thousands of pilots over the years and it is dissapointing to see some of its uses today, so I can understand your anger.
However I don't think it's fare to cast subjective views upon them or an industry within a country that you know so little about.
There is absolutely no point in kicking your dog just because he's a dog, you have to wait until he does something wrong then point to it and kick him. Hopefully he will learn eventually.
Feel free to stick your boot in anytime Danny particularly with specific directions and instructions on your forums use.
Every one needs a good bollicking every now and again. You may hate the Training Captain for it but he is only trying to make you a better pilot.
Same here.
I don't agree with everything Danny said or even the wy he said it but we could all do with a bit of proffesional direction and discretion when Pruning.
Far to many threads turn into bitch fights or pissing contests.
Danny: Your comments about this Forum or its users being insular is quite correct, but that is mainly because the entire Aviation industry in OZ is insular. Even it's national carrier QF is far to insular, but they are one of the oldest airlines if not the oldest and fly all over the world to the highest of standards. Australia is unique in it's evironment, culture, geography, demography, climate and career structures.
It is not like Europe at all, in fact it is bigger than Europe and as such it can be very difficult for locals to look beyond the beach and understand how the rest of the world likes to do things.
Pprune is such a great facillity for those all over the world and in particular our unworldly aviation brothers stuck in the bush in OZ. It has played a major part in career development for many thousands of pilots over the years and it is dissapointing to see some of its uses today, so I can understand your anger.
However I don't think it's fare to cast subjective views upon them or an industry within a country that you know so little about.
There is absolutely no point in kicking your dog just because he's a dog, you have to wait until he does something wrong then point to it and kick him. Hopefully he will learn eventually.
Feel free to stick your boot in anytime Danny particularly with specific directions and instructions on your forums use.
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Lots of the best things in the world are Australian - Fosters (beer), Tim Tams, the "black box" flight recorder, Rip Curl.....etc.
You, Danny, might like to knock Australians (the Antipodeans) for living in what you consider an "insular" society, but in reality, that is the case with the inhabitants of most countries.
On the other hand, I would hazard a guess that there are probably more Australian pilots working in foreign countries now, than almost any other singular citizenship - the US included.
When Aussie pilots take a job "offshore", it generally entails a minimum of 9 - 10 hours of air travel time from their Australian home to their place of work, whereas you Europeans need travel only 30 minutes, or thereabouts, to discover you are in a "foreign country".
That makes it pretty easy to adapt, because although the language might be different, the cultures are quite similar.
Almost ANYWHERE an Ozmate ventures is guaranteed to be a totally new experience in language, culture, and skin-colouring for us.
WE are an adaptive "race".
I suggest you Poms are not nearly as receptive to change as we have proven ourselves to be - and you, with this topic starter, have once again proven the British NOT to be.
And, for the record, what possible reason was there for the removal of the reference to my site - anotherwebsite.org (replace the "!" with an "I") ?
Do you see THIS Aussie concept as some sort of "threat" to your own PPRuNe?
I don't see PPRuNe as a threat to my website, but rather as 2 sites that are able to co-exist.
Charlie Rich aka Kaptin M
Instigator and proud owner of another website
Edited by Woomera to remove links that may be deemed offensive
You, Danny, might like to knock Australians (the Antipodeans) for living in what you consider an "insular" society, but in reality, that is the case with the inhabitants of most countries.
On the other hand, I would hazard a guess that there are probably more Australian pilots working in foreign countries now, than almost any other singular citizenship - the US included.
When Aussie pilots take a job "offshore", it generally entails a minimum of 9 - 10 hours of air travel time from their Australian home to their place of work, whereas you Europeans need travel only 30 minutes, or thereabouts, to discover you are in a "foreign country".
That makes it pretty easy to adapt, because although the language might be different, the cultures are quite similar.
Almost ANYWHERE an Ozmate ventures is guaranteed to be a totally new experience in language, culture, and skin-colouring for us.
WE are an adaptive "race".
I suggest you Poms are not nearly as receptive to change as we have proven ourselves to be - and you, with this topic starter, have once again proven the British NOT to be.
And, for the record, what possible reason was there for the removal of the reference to my site - anotherwebsite.org (replace the "!" with an "I") ?
Do you see THIS Aussie concept as some sort of "threat" to your own PPRuNe?
I don't see PPRuNe as a threat to my website, but rather as 2 sites that are able to co-exist.
Charlie Rich aka Kaptin M
Instigator and proud owner of another website
Edited by Woomera to remove links that may be deemed offensive
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Ladies and gentleman............
Aren't we all just a bit sensitive? Half of you seem to agree with Danny (myself included) and the other half seem to have gotten your backs up because he's pointed out a few home truth's
Sure Pommey land has its share of problems...but thats not whats on discussion here. Wouldn't it be nice to think that we are all fair minded, and able to construct a reasoned argument, clearly however that doesnt seem to be the case with some of you, who it would appear, prefer to play the man rather than the ball.
Dannys comments are valid, his observations are accurate, and some of your responses to these, have just proved the point.
The highlighted comment below..is not an example of this however
Charlie/Kapt M
All I can say to that is...go and read Dannys comments again, he suggests of the Ozmates/Kiwi's hes flown with are the very example of adaptive, he is critical however of the dogmatic, and wholly insular attitude that exists in its own unique way in Oz and NZ aviation..not of the likes of you or I who have sought pastures further afield.
Now the message is something that plenty of us find unpalatable (myself included) but it does ring true on many levels.
Aren't we all just a bit sensitive? Half of you seem to agree with Danny (myself included) and the other half seem to have gotten your backs up because he's pointed out a few home truth's
Sure Pommey land has its share of problems...but thats not whats on discussion here. Wouldn't it be nice to think that we are all fair minded, and able to construct a reasoned argument, clearly however that doesnt seem to be the case with some of you, who it would appear, prefer to play the man rather than the ball.
Dannys comments are valid, his observations are accurate, and some of your responses to these, have just proved the point.
The highlighted comment below..is not an example of this however
WE are an adaptive "race".
I suggest you Poms are not nearly as receptive to change as we have proven ourselves to be - and you, with this topic starter, have once again proven the British NOT to be
I suggest you Poms are not nearly as receptive to change as we have proven ourselves to be - and you, with this topic starter, have once again proven the British NOT to be
All I can say to that is...go and read Dannys comments again, he suggests of the Ozmates/Kiwi's hes flown with are the very example of adaptive, he is critical however of the dogmatic, and wholly insular attitude that exists in its own unique way in Oz and NZ aviation..not of the likes of you or I who have sought pastures further afield.
Now the message is something that plenty of us find unpalatable (myself included) but it does ring true on many levels.
Last edited by haughtney1; 12th Sep 2006 at 16:23. Reason: for clarity
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Charlie as an experienced airline pilot you would surely have learned about the risks inherent with the word YOU in CRM?
Do you think the wording of the above post might be changed to better reflect some level of respect for the Pprune Captain?
Perhaps you might reflect on how it feels when an FO suggests YOU have forgotten this or that...as opposed to the FO who, when something has been clearly missed, says "have WE completed xy or z yet"?
Perhaps that basic common courtesy might extend to not plugging your own website in EVERY POST you make on this one?
What ya think?
Do you think the wording of the above post might be changed to better reflect some level of respect for the Pprune Captain?
Perhaps you might reflect on how it feels when an FO suggests YOU have forgotten this or that...as opposed to the FO who, when something has been clearly missed, says "have WE completed xy or z yet"?
Perhaps that basic common courtesy might extend to not plugging your own website in EVERY POST you make on this one?
What ya think?
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As one of Danny's opening, blanket statements, try this one
This is coming from a guy who has less than 10 years experience in international airline operations, and who feels he needs to read the "Riot Act" to many of us who have been working offshore - for foreign companies - for way in excess of that time he has accrued.
But then the confusion within his own thinking sets in, with -
Danny, as you made it painfully clear at the outset, PPRuNe is YOUR domain - YOU invented the D & G Forums.
That "understanding" has been gained by talking with people who were expressing their opinions. The FACT is, Danny Fyne has NEVER worked in Australia for anymore than a brief charter at best.
Having LIVED, and worked full time, in 6 different countries, perhaps I might make the same quip, Danny.
But I won't, because it's a cheap shot, and has no depth.
I HAVE experienced "the rest of the world", and it isn't all that different the whole world over.
Anyway, I'm sick of the back-stabbing, and the cheap shots.
We only divide our ranks further.
Now is the time to consolidate, and act as responsible professionals, putting (relative) minor differences aside, to advance the profession as a whole, rather than trying to advance ourselves - or singular entities - individually.
Charlie Rich
You abviously missed out on the lesson plan marked conflict spiral too...so let me to introduce you to the CRM (Cretin Reactive Moderating) version of a bitch slap.
one of the main problems facing you Antipodeans when it comes to professional aviation is that you have become too insular. You have come to believe that you are somehow special or so different from everywhere else on earth that you are a special case. Well, perhaps it is time to wake up and smell the coffee
But then the confusion within his own thinking sets in, with -
Please tell me how can a country with an aviation idustry the size of Australia's warrant such an exclusive forum
I have met and flown with enough Australian and New Zealand pilots during my career to understand that those of you who have never had to venture outside of your area to fly professionally seem to think that what you do, the problems you face and the environment you fly in are somehow exclusive and different. Well, let me tell you, you need to get out more often and experience how the rest of the world do it.
Having LIVED, and worked full time, in 6 different countries, perhaps I might make the same quip, Danny.
But I won't, because it's a cheap shot, and has no depth.
I HAVE experienced "the rest of the world", and it isn't all that different the whole world over.
Anyway, I'm sick of the back-stabbing, and the cheap shots.
We only divide our ranks further.
Now is the time to consolidate, and act as responsible professionals, putting (relative) minor differences aside, to advance the profession as a whole, rather than trying to advance ourselves - or singular entities - individually.
Charlie Rich
You abviously missed out on the lesson plan marked conflict spiral too...so let me to introduce you to the CRM (Cretin Reactive Moderating) version of a bitch slap.
Last edited by Woomera; 12th Sep 2006 at 16:53. Reason: repeated links to another website
With respect, Danny is particularly sensitive (perhaps justifiably) about the possibility of litigation arising out of comments on Pprune. You may notice that threads about the actions of a certain airline were deleted at the time his rant was posted.
In a way I guess Pprune is a victim of its own success. It's not just a group of Professional Pilots talking in a shed somewhere, no matter how much Mr. Fyne would like it to be. If it was, I guess few of us unprofessionals would be interested.
In a way I guess Pprune is a victim of its own success. It's not just a group of Professional Pilots talking in a shed somewhere, no matter how much Mr. Fyne would like it to be. If it was, I guess few of us unprofessionals would be interested.
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With respect, Danny is particularly sensitive (perhaps justifiably) about the possibility of litigation arising out of comments on Pprune. You may notice that threads about the actions of a certain airline were deleted at the time his rant was posted.
In a way I guess Pprune is a victim of its own success. It's not just a group of Professional Pilots talking in a shed somewhere, no matter how much Mr. Fyne would like it to be. If it was, I guess few of us unprofessionals would be interested.
In a way I guess Pprune is a victim of its own success. It's not just a group of Professional Pilots talking in a shed somewhere, no matter how much Mr. Fyne would like it to be. If it was, I guess few of us unprofessionals would be interested.
As the site owner, DF is culpable for allowing the comments to be published - as well as the person(s) making them. You cannot blame DF for protecting pprune - and I am sure the forceful comments made were forced and antagonized out of him because of the unfounded and damaging statements placed here and there.
Pprune has grown to a bethmehoth, a wonder, yet sometimes abused by those who ought to know better. I am no exception sometimes, but biting tongue, or in this case, crossing fingers before typing is a good idea....
The thing is that most aviation discussion in the Aust / NZ region doesn't fit neatly into one area (Flying Instruction, GA, Airlines or whatever) - the dynamics and interactions are such that a topic of interest often crosses over these arbitrary boundaries and generates relevant opinion and comment from many sectors of the industry.
If healthy and well-rounded discussion of an issue is what you want, then trying to pigeon-hole it isn't the answer.
Yes, strong action from the moderators is necessary and welcomed by most when slagging matches start, but don't kill the essence of the site by getting too heavy-handed and prescriptive, please.
If healthy and well-rounded discussion of an issue is what you want, then trying to pigeon-hole it isn't the answer.
Yes, strong action from the moderators is necessary and welcomed by most when slagging matches start, but don't kill the essence of the site by getting too heavy-handed and prescriptive, please.
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Proffessional Pilots rumour NETWORK
Dear Danny,
I may be putting myself out on a limb hear, as i am new to the forum.
However I am a training pilot, completeing an accelerated course, and conduct every training flight as if i am a professional pilot. It is not as if people suddnely become proffessional when the gain a CPL or join an airline, if you are serious about becoming a career pilot then that is the way you act from the very begining.
In my experience proffesionals of any industry wish to have an overview of the entire industry, from training to management and ownership. Pilot are no different, I have met very experienced pilots and not one of them has not wanted to hear my views on the industry; where i believe various parts of it are heading, and where there are issues in the industry that need to be addressed. The more people know about the industry the better as ultimately that leaves scope for improving conditions, especially in GA, which is where i will eventually be employed.
I believe that this forum does have a negative aspect to it, and that some memebers arent genuinely interested in it for a proffesional purpose, but to say that student pilots and private pilots do not have a place here is a huge mistake. This is after all a NETWORK and it should include all aspects pertaining to proffesional aviation. Including LAME's, hostees, management, training, and aircraft development aspects. To say that only pilots that have jobs should be on this forum, is very narrow minded and does not let this site live to its full potential.
Tiny Fly
I may be putting myself out on a limb hear, as i am new to the forum.
However I am a training pilot, completeing an accelerated course, and conduct every training flight as if i am a professional pilot. It is not as if people suddnely become proffessional when the gain a CPL or join an airline, if you are serious about becoming a career pilot then that is the way you act from the very begining.
In my experience proffesionals of any industry wish to have an overview of the entire industry, from training to management and ownership. Pilot are no different, I have met very experienced pilots and not one of them has not wanted to hear my views on the industry; where i believe various parts of it are heading, and where there are issues in the industry that need to be addressed. The more people know about the industry the better as ultimately that leaves scope for improving conditions, especially in GA, which is where i will eventually be employed.
I believe that this forum does have a negative aspect to it, and that some memebers arent genuinely interested in it for a proffesional purpose, but to say that student pilots and private pilots do not have a place here is a huge mistake. This is after all a NETWORK and it should include all aspects pertaining to proffesional aviation. Including LAME's, hostees, management, training, and aircraft development aspects. To say that only pilots that have jobs should be on this forum, is very narrow minded and does not let this site live to its full potential.
Tiny Fly
Last edited by tinyfly; 13th Sep 2006 at 01:35.
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation.
Not sure where I read that but to put it into the context of this thread, I suspect the real concern Danny has is a legal one. The sight of Antipodeans tearing each other to pieces, per se, would likely cause nothing but bemusement. However when things turn slanderous, there can be legal ramifications.
May I suggest Danny or the Flying Lawyer lay out some guidelines. I am confident that professionals, when presented with the facts, can moderate themselves more effectively than can any delete button.
Praemonitus, pramunitas.
And by way of clarification, I believe the correct spelling for pom is POHM which is an acronym for 'Prisoner of His Majesty'
Not sure where I read that but to put it into the context of this thread, I suspect the real concern Danny has is a legal one. The sight of Antipodeans tearing each other to pieces, per se, would likely cause nothing but bemusement. However when things turn slanderous, there can be legal ramifications.
May I suggest Danny or the Flying Lawyer lay out some guidelines. I am confident that professionals, when presented with the facts, can moderate themselves more effectively than can any delete button.
Praemonitus, pramunitas.
And by way of clarification, I believe the correct spelling for pom is POHM which is an acronym for 'Prisoner of His Majesty'
Last edited by VR-HFX; 13th Sep 2006 at 03:33.
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I see that there are two new threads in the miltary forums now. One is basically some blokes talking about funny things that have happened to them while on gatehouse duty, the other is about some bloke burning a piano after getting drunk at a dining in night. Awesome aviation topics I thought!
As far as I can see, neither of these are in any way related to "professional" (mustn't forget to use that word) military aviation and professional (again) aviation pilot related things.............. can you get someone from the pprune head office please write to the miltary blokes and give them an pointed, angry official warning that it's just not on and that it has to stop because it might all end up in court one day? Got knows what sort of lawsuit could be hurled at pprune if it got out that blokes were talking about aviation related topics such as the smelliest fart they ever dropped while drunk at a dining in night. Heaven forbid.
Thanks.
As far as I can see, neither of these are in any way related to "professional" (mustn't forget to use that word) military aviation and professional (again) aviation pilot related things.............. can you get someone from the pprune head office please write to the miltary blokes and give them an pointed, angry official warning that it's just not on and that it has to stop because it might all end up in court one day? Got knows what sort of lawsuit could be hurled at pprune if it got out that blokes were talking about aviation related topics such as the smelliest fart they ever dropped while drunk at a dining in night. Heaven forbid.
Thanks.
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lest we forget the various wing commanders talking about opening champagne with a sword, or the constant , ever returning, amusing and ultimately revealing epaulette thread discussed by 747 , 152 jocks and cabbies alike.
Professional indeed, amusingly so.
Professional indeed, amusingly so.
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Lord Fyne,
I remember when this board was nothing like it is now, I think it was a membership of a mere 2,500 ish at that stage ...
I remember when D&G was created and there was much rejoicing by all. I thought it was because of the size of the following drawn to this here place and not because we wanted to be considered special or become insular, that this happened.
What a shame you feel that the time has come to close it down or significantly reduce the size of this corner of the sandpit.
I'm still not a professional pilot. I have learnt to fly over the years, but realised that I didn't wish to earn my living do that. However, I have held positions with air traffic control providers and airlines over the years. I continue to hold professional positions within airlines.
I do have things to say from time to time, and I will continue to have may say from time to time. Aviators are a passionate bunch, and I can see that if you think the 8itchfights that are 'contained' herein are going to go away when intermingled with the mainstream boards, respectfully, I think you are mistaken.
In fact, I think it will deteriorate even further.
I remember when this board was nothing like it is now, I think it was a membership of a mere 2,500 ish at that stage ...
I remember when D&G was created and there was much rejoicing by all. I thought it was because of the size of the following drawn to this here place and not because we wanted to be considered special or become insular, that this happened.
What a shame you feel that the time has come to close it down or significantly reduce the size of this corner of the sandpit.
I'm still not a professional pilot. I have learnt to fly over the years, but realised that I didn't wish to earn my living do that. However, I have held positions with air traffic control providers and airlines over the years. I continue to hold professional positions within airlines.
I do have things to say from time to time, and I will continue to have may say from time to time. Aviators are a passionate bunch, and I can see that if you think the 8itchfights that are 'contained' herein are going to go away when intermingled with the mainstream boards, respectfully, I think you are mistaken.
In fact, I think it will deteriorate even further.
Danny
I know this is your train set and you are allowed to play with it the way you want but may I respectfully point out that this corner of Pprune was specifically set up so it could be:
As I’m sure you know this is taken straight from the entry header to these forums. While I agree that some here need to clean up their act, forcing us to other more general areas of Pprune will result in you loosing a very large number of valuable Australian and New Zealand members.
It has long been accepted by us and stated by the moderators of this forum that “all aspects of the Australian/NZ aviation scene” included:
Why do you suddenly and dramatically want to change the rules we have flourished under? Is it because of commercial reasons? If it is I would point out that forcing us to other more general forums could have larger commercial consequence. Since your post I have been approached (and I am sure many others have been as well) by three individuals highlighting other aviation forums that would allow “Dunnunda & Godzone” to continue in its current form. I personally don’t know if these individuals are legitimate or not but it shows quite clearly there are some out there that are willing to steal the business you have painstakingly built up over many years. Please don’t let this happen because of a rash decision made on the spur of the moment.
I know this is your train set and you are allowed to play with it the way you want but may I respectfully point out that this corner of Pprune was specifically set up so it could be:
An independent family of forums covering all aspects of the Australian/NZ aviation scene.
It has long been accepted by us and stated by the moderators of this forum that “all aspects of the Australian/NZ aviation scene” included:
Airlines, Airports & Routes; Cabin Crew; Private Flying; Biz Jets & GA; Military Aircrew; Spectators and anything that has wings.
I concur with 404 Titan etc.
The two D&G forums are a one-stop shop for news specific to regional Oz & NZ issues. I assume they along with HK Africa etc. were created to provide just that – a convenient region-specific focus. Why would I want to wade through a bunch of other forums in search for issues relating this region?? The airspace reform thread is a good example. That issue affects all levels from heavy jets to student pilots, ATC, military etc. etc. Which forum would that be buried in?
A blast for slanderous comments and allegations is fine and overdue, but sorry – it makes no sense to me to bury this region’s issues within international forums. That isn’t parochial – simply practical.
The two D&G forums are a one-stop shop for news specific to regional Oz & NZ issues. I assume they along with HK Africa etc. were created to provide just that – a convenient region-specific focus. Why would I want to wade through a bunch of other forums in search for issues relating this region?? The airspace reform thread is a good example. That issue affects all levels from heavy jets to student pilots, ATC, military etc. etc. Which forum would that be buried in?
A blast for slanderous comments and allegations is fine and overdue, but sorry – it makes no sense to me to bury this region’s issues within international forums. That isn’t parochial – simply practical.