Jetstar/AO threads Merged
Speedy,
you beat me to it...
as for you ff,
your attention to detail needs a little focus. i hope you didnt sign off on the agreement by just listening to Romeo Hotel and his cronies... if you did, then you have been spun by the doctor! if i were a betting man, id put $50 on that bloke having a job in management within 2 years of the introduction of JQI. He did the same "smooth the boys over for us" job that QF's illustrious leader did!
seen it before... im just trying not to see it again!
you beat me to it...
as for you ff,
your attention to detail needs a little focus. i hope you didnt sign off on the agreement by just listening to Romeo Hotel and his cronies... if you did, then you have been spun by the doctor! if i were a betting man, id put $50 on that bloke having a job in management within 2 years of the introduction of JQI. He did the same "smooth the boys over for us" job that QF's illustrious leader did!
seen it before... im just trying not to see it again!
Last edited by OneDotLow; 19th Jun 2006 at 02:05.
And another thing FF...
If you believe your interpretation more accurately reflects the 'intent' of the award, and if you believe that J*management also holds that interpretation, then it should be no big deal to have them insert the words 'each of' and a few others into said clause... just to help everyone's peace of mind.
Try to get it changed, easily and without fuss (ie without having to buy it in your next EBA negotiations!), to say;
25.1.3 “You will be rostered free of duty at your Home Base for minimum of 9 designated days off in each of 6 roster periods and 10 rostered days off in each of 6 roster periods in each calendar year. The minimum number of days off in a roster period for a pilot will be notified to the pilot no later than before the end of the preceding period.”
The reaction to, and progress of such a suggestion will let you know what was really intended by this clause.
If anyone baulks at such a simple request, then you'll know that other motives underly what many view to be a deliberately ambiguous choice of words. I actually really do wish you well if you're prepared to ask the question. And is it such an unreasonable clarification to seek if everyone else has misunderstood?
Try to get it changed, easily and without fuss (ie without having to buy it in your next EBA negotiations!), to say;
25.1.3 “You will be rostered free of duty at your Home Base for minimum of 9 designated days off in each of 6 roster periods and 10 rostered days off in each of 6 roster periods in each calendar year. The minimum number of days off in a roster period for a pilot will be notified to the pilot no later than before the end of the preceding period.”
The reaction to, and progress of such a suggestion will let you know what was really intended by this clause.
If anyone baulks at such a simple request, then you'll know that other motives underly what many view to be a deliberately ambiguous choice of words. I actually really do wish you well if you're prepared to ask the question. And is it such an unreasonable clarification to seek if everyone else has misunderstood?
Last edited by Jetsbest; 19th Jun 2006 at 03:33.
Grandpa Aerotart
Yeah that would make sense
Why would Ansettstar
1/. Pay a contract crew company $230K to supply people who are then payed some lower amount.?
2/. Pay a contract crew company some higher amount out of which said company pays the crew member $230K?
When Ansettstar could negotiate themselves.
When a company like Parc or Rishworth supply crew they do the sourcing not the airline...why would Ansettstar send a team to DXB to interview pilots on behalf of such a company and THEN pay them a monthy fee to supply such crew?
I mean think about it for a minute.
watchdog FF is making that point too.
Why would Ansettstar
1/. Pay a contract crew company $230K to supply people who are then payed some lower amount.?
2/. Pay a contract crew company some higher amount out of which said company pays the crew member $230K?
When Ansettstar could negotiate themselves.
When a company like Parc or Rishworth supply crew they do the sourcing not the airline...why would Ansettstar send a team to DXB to interview pilots on behalf of such a company and THEN pay them a monthy fee to supply such crew?
I mean think about it for a minute.
watchdog FF is making that point too.
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OMG What stops QF forming its own contract company???
"GD&AJ AWA LTD",will do nicely........
It is the law now right?
Jetstar may not be desperate for crew, just experienced crew.
What stops QF forming its own contract company??? "GD&AJ AWA LTD",will do nicely........
It is the law now right? Jetstar may not be desperate for crew, just experienced crew.
Grandpa Aerotart
touche...hadn't thought of that
When you said 'the AWAs may have an interesting contractor name at the top' I assumed you meant one of the well known contract companies like Parc etc.
I still think it's bollocks BTW.
When you said 'the AWAs may have an interesting contractor name at the top' I assumed you meant one of the well known contract companies like Parc etc.
I still think it's bollocks BTW.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 19th Jun 2006 at 08:37.
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Watchdog, The 787 will still need checkies. Anyone on the A330 will go onto the 787 with the company providing the necessary training. More 787's than A330's means more pilots and more checkies. I doubt that the number of
787's will stop at 12.
787's will stop at 12.
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Slag off all you like gents. The clause in question was in the original agreement, nothing to do with the gentleman that you are quite erroneously putting ****e on. Neither the company nor the pilots have any difficulty interpreting the clause. No shortage of experienced people wanting to join Jet* either.
ff,
At this stage, and please correct me if im wrong, but jetstar domestic rarely do overnights, if at all... therefore they spend every night in their home base.
However, once JQI start flying to overseas destinations with lower frequency, ie 2-3 times per week, this will require crews to slip. Do you think the company would take advantage of any such a clause at that point in time?
At this stage, and please correct me if im wrong, but jetstar domestic rarely do overnights, if at all... therefore they spend every night in their home base.
However, once JQI start flying to overseas destinations with lower frequency, ie 2-3 times per week, this will require crews to slip. Do you think the company would take advantage of any such a clause at that point in time?
FF,
yep agree the 787 will need checkers - but would J* bother paying for the
A330 to 787 conversions after their 3 year contracts are up? If it were the case, then are the current A320 checkers being transferred onto the 330?
Why not then employ 777 experienced checkies who will do a short CCQ onto the 787? These guys would have relevant fleet experience?
yep agree the 787 will need checkers - but would J* bother paying for the
A330 to 787 conversions after their 3 year contracts are up? If it were the case, then are the current A320 checkers being transferred onto the 330?
Why not then employ 777 experienced checkies who will do a short CCQ onto the 787? These guys would have relevant fleet experience?
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No UNOME that was not a light hearted dig and, FF, who is known to me personally, did not take it as a light hearted dig...so you can stop peddling your bike in reverse.
Annonimity is taken seriously here...no one knows who you are...but some of us know each other and, in the case of FF and I, have worked together in previous airlines.
There is a LOT of ill informed rubbish being posted about Jetstar and it's staff.
The way certain people chose to read certain clauses in the Jetstar Certified Agreement is simply breathtaking in it's panic ridden, adolescent stupidity.
It is long past time you lot calmed down and realised that the world does not owe you a living and no one has any 'right' to anything...be it a job flying jets, a comfortable retirement or CX A scale wages and low tax.
Expat Ozzies chosing to come home to fly for Jetstar will do so on the basis of their individual circumstances and will accept, or not, what is on offer.
That is no ones elses business and they are NOT STEALING JOBS from pilots within the available pool in Australia.
They are not prostituting themselves or driving the profession into the toilet...they are merely getting on with their lives and careers as they see fit.
I have merged all the threads because irrespective of the original topic you all end up in the same place.
NOW PLAY NICE!!
Woomera
Annonimity is taken seriously here...no one knows who you are...but some of us know each other and, in the case of FF and I, have worked together in previous airlines.
There is a LOT of ill informed rubbish being posted about Jetstar and it's staff.
The way certain people chose to read certain clauses in the Jetstar Certified Agreement is simply breathtaking in it's panic ridden, adolescent stupidity.
It is long past time you lot calmed down and realised that the world does not owe you a living and no one has any 'right' to anything...be it a job flying jets, a comfortable retirement or CX A scale wages and low tax.
Expat Ozzies chosing to come home to fly for Jetstar will do so on the basis of their individual circumstances and will accept, or not, what is on offer.
That is no ones elses business and they are NOT STEALING JOBS from pilots within the available pool in Australia.
They are not prostituting themselves or driving the profession into the toilet...they are merely getting on with their lives and careers as they see fit.
I have merged all the threads because irrespective of the original topic you all end up in the same place.
NOW PLAY NICE!!
Woomera
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Pilot ire as outsiders apply for Jetstar jobs
Tues "Sydney Morning Herald"
Pilot ire as outsiders apply for Jetstar jobs
Email Print Normal font Large font Scott Rochfort
June 20, 2006
JETSTAR has further enraged long-haul pilots working for its full-service parent, Qantas, after announcing it had received 1000 "job applications" from pilots based in Asia and the Middle East keen to fly its long-haul services.
After holding "roadshow" job presentations in Asia and the Middle East, Jetstar chief executive Alan Joyce said many of the applicants were "experienced on [Airbus] 330s and 320s and working for major airlines around the world".
Just five months away from the low-cost airline's first long-haul flight, Mr Joyce said many of the expressions of interest were from pilots working for overseas carriers such as Emirates and Singapore Airlines, many of them expatriate Australians.
But with Jetstar already bypassing Qantas pilots to crew its long-haul planes, other unions are growing edgy over whether the airline plans to bypass their members as well.
After leaving the Australian International Pilots Association in the cold in recent wage negotiations, other unions are increasingly uneasy over Jetstar International's intentions given the airline has already stated it wants to have a 40 per cent lower cost base than Qantas.
The Flight Attendants Association says it is yet to hear from Jetstar.
Australian Services Union assistant national secretary Linda White said she was still waiting to hear whether the airline's long-haul arm planned to use the parts of the Howard Government's IR laws that would allow it to write its own Australian Workplace Agreements - without union or worker input.
"Either they haven't got [any plans] or they are not prepared to come clean," she said.
Ms White also warned the airline's plans to send call-centre jobs to Asia could create a backlash from Jetstar customers and the general public.
Her comments came after the Jetstar boss confirmed the airline was putting out a tender for a joint call centre serving Jetstar and the 44.5 per cent Qantas-owned, Singapore-based, Jetstar Asia.
Mr Joyce also confirmed Jetstar had held talks over possible code-share arrangements with Asian airlines.
"We are talking to a number of different carriers," he said, while declining to confirm speculation talks had already been held with Vietnam Airlines.
Mr Joyce disputed that code-share deals would result in Jetstar forming cosy deals with other carriers and undermining its pledge to offer the cheapest fares in the market.
"Our intention down the line is to have a very close relationship with people in Asia that could allow us to give customers greater choice," he said.
=========================================
Pilot ire as outsiders apply for Jetstar jobs
Email Print Normal font Large font Scott Rochfort
June 20, 2006
JETSTAR has further enraged long-haul pilots working for its full-service parent, Qantas, after announcing it had received 1000 "job applications" from pilots based in Asia and the Middle East keen to fly its long-haul services.
After holding "roadshow" job presentations in Asia and the Middle East, Jetstar chief executive Alan Joyce said many of the applicants were "experienced on [Airbus] 330s and 320s and working for major airlines around the world".
Just five months away from the low-cost airline's first long-haul flight, Mr Joyce said many of the expressions of interest were from pilots working for overseas carriers such as Emirates and Singapore Airlines, many of them expatriate Australians.
But with Jetstar already bypassing Qantas pilots to crew its long-haul planes, other unions are growing edgy over whether the airline plans to bypass their members as well.
After leaving the Australian International Pilots Association in the cold in recent wage negotiations, other unions are increasingly uneasy over Jetstar International's intentions given the airline has already stated it wants to have a 40 per cent lower cost base than Qantas.
The Flight Attendants Association says it is yet to hear from Jetstar.
Australian Services Union assistant national secretary Linda White said she was still waiting to hear whether the airline's long-haul arm planned to use the parts of the Howard Government's IR laws that would allow it to write its own Australian Workplace Agreements - without union or worker input.
"Either they haven't got [any plans] or they are not prepared to come clean," she said.
Ms White also warned the airline's plans to send call-centre jobs to Asia could create a backlash from Jetstar customers and the general public.
Her comments came after the Jetstar boss confirmed the airline was putting out a tender for a joint call centre serving Jetstar and the 44.5 per cent Qantas-owned, Singapore-based, Jetstar Asia.
Mr Joyce also confirmed Jetstar had held talks over possible code-share arrangements with Asian airlines.
"We are talking to a number of different carriers," he said, while declining to confirm speculation talks had already been held with Vietnam Airlines.
Mr Joyce disputed that code-share deals would result in Jetstar forming cosy deals with other carriers and undermining its pledge to offer the cheapest fares in the market.
"Our intention down the line is to have a very close relationship with people in Asia that could allow us to give customers greater choice," he said.
=========================================
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Woomera.
I take your point on JQ Int except it is using QF aircraft (A330's gifted to the operation for free) and flying QF routes.
QF mainline pilots careers have been destroyed by this move.
I find it unbelievable that (according to your view of things) we should be happy about this and say "oh well its OK for guys who by their own choice left Aust to fly elsewhere and because they now decide they want to come home you QF boys should just move over and let them undermine your careers, and if any of you winge about it then we will ban / censor you because the JQ Int TRE's / TRI's are our mates"
My livelyhood and future career prospects has been ruined by FF and his mates. The company writes threating letters to my home address, fleet management threaten us personally, and we are being told a massive pack of lies from senior management about fuel costs (fully recovered by the surcharge if any of you bother to do the maths) and you expect us to just 'roll over' and apologise for being a little 'hot under the collar' about what s going on.
Bizarre.
I take your point on JQ Int except it is using QF aircraft (A330's gifted to the operation for free) and flying QF routes.
QF mainline pilots careers have been destroyed by this move.
I find it unbelievable that (according to your view of things) we should be happy about this and say "oh well its OK for guys who by their own choice left Aust to fly elsewhere and because they now decide they want to come home you QF boys should just move over and let them undermine your careers, and if any of you winge about it then we will ban / censor you because the JQ Int TRE's / TRI's are our mates"
My livelyhood and future career prospects has been ruined by FF and his mates. The company writes threating letters to my home address, fleet management threaten us personally, and we are being told a massive pack of lies from senior management about fuel costs (fully recovered by the surcharge if any of you bother to do the maths) and you expect us to just 'roll over' and apologise for being a little 'hot under the collar' about what s going on.
Bizarre.
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Alan Joyce and Geoff Dixon are working together to destroy Qantas and recreate it under the Jetstar banner.
They will succeed because we are all full of hot air and p1ss.
When are we going to unite to protect our jobs?
They will succeed because we are all full of hot air and p1ss.
When are we going to unite to protect our jobs?
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rickwithasilentp, exceptionally well said 
Woomera, thanks for your unbiased moderating. Your mate FF and others will be proudly flying our ACTUAL aeroplanes at a bargain rate with no conditions, its MY job he is taking and you want me to say thanks??? Extraordinary.
BTW since you seem to be part of the debate now rather than just the moderator, would you care to explain how else to read the particular clause regarding days off???
This is kind of like the spotlight debate where employees traded in conditions for virtually no pay rise, except FF & Co have traded in conditions worth 40% and still took a 40% pay cut! A few spotlight employees may be uneducated and unskilled but they are obviously considerably smarter than certain pilots, because in the end they realised that they could just say NO!
Woomera, thanks for your unbiased moderating. Your mate FF and others will be proudly flying our ACTUAL aeroplanes at a bargain rate with no conditions, its MY job he is taking and you want me to say thanks??? Extraordinary.
BTW since you seem to be part of the debate now rather than just the moderator, would you care to explain how else to read the particular clause regarding days off???
This is kind of like the spotlight debate where employees traded in conditions for virtually no pay rise, except FF & Co have traded in conditions worth 40% and still took a 40% pay cut! A few spotlight employees may be uneducated and unskilled but they are obviously considerably smarter than certain pilots, because in the end they realised that they could just say NO!
Last edited by speeeedy; 19th Jun 2006 at 23:39.
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The 1000 pilots from overseas is rubbish. They just said that to keep the troops under control. No they use the sim for that!
They are having trouble crewing Ansett International, I mean Jetstar International and the blue shirts from the failed airline want to bring in full time command positions. No 3 years command then back to FO.
Ex QantaslinK 717 pilots get ready to bend over
Really they should have got Qantas A330 drivers to do the job but too many HQ people want to build an empire.
They are having trouble crewing Ansett International, I mean Jetstar International and the blue shirts from the failed airline want to bring in full time command positions. No 3 years command then back to FO.
Ex QantaslinK 717 pilots get ready to bend over
Really they should have got Qantas A330 drivers to do the job but too many HQ people want to build an empire.
It is long past time you lot calmed down and realised that the world does not owe you a living and no one has any 'right' to anything...be it a job flying jets, a comfortable retirement or CX A scale wages and low tax.
If the silly, vitriolic comments in this thread are any indication of what it's like to fly in the cockpit of an Australian airliner these days, I'm glad I made the move overseas all those years ago.
It's about time some of you climbed down from your ivory towers and had a damn good reality check...
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More hot Air!!!
RICK and SPEEDY.
Your preceived INTENT of Woomeras' post included;
,
or
It Is very typical for you lot to slag off on the sidelines,we've heard alot of it since the Jetstar inception.
Times are are moving and changes are been made but you lot still have your head buried in the sand, surfacing only to cry little boy blue.
I know you all believe you are untouchable and you and AIPA will still be here in a hundred years,but so did Ansett in 2000 and so did the broard base domestic Pilot body of 1989, which AIPA conveniently came out unscathed.
The writing on the wall is now writen in very large letters.So stop you bleeding heart stories and get on with doing something meaningful about it.
For the record I wish you all (Qantas)the best.
Your preceived INTENT of Woomeras' post included;
its MY job he is taking and you want me to say thanks???
or
and you expect us to just 'roll over' and apologise for being a little 'hot under the collar' about what s going on.
It Is very typical for you lot to slag off on the sidelines,we've heard alot of it since the Jetstar inception.
Times are are moving and changes are been made but you lot still have your head buried in the sand, surfacing only to cry little boy blue.
I know you all believe you are untouchable and you and AIPA will still be here in a hundred years,but so did Ansett in 2000 and so did the broard base domestic Pilot body of 1989, which AIPA conveniently came out unscathed.
The writing on the wall is now writen in very large letters.So stop you bleeding heart stories and get on with doing something meaningful about it.
For the record I wish you all (Qantas)the best.
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I too take exception to this post by the moderator(s).
Some of us, with a long term perspective, have worked it out already; some plainly haven't.
The aim of J* is an end to collective bargaining in this industry. Now a lot of you are going to say "So what?" to that statement and perhaps even "good riddance" from a few of the usual suspects.
If we cannot collectively bargain then any certainty in this industry goes out the window. Even for the QF haters in this forum, there is a need to understand that the current QF Certified Agreement, the thing that Oldmeadow and his mates are actively working to destroy, represents the last australian aviation career path that is stable, with protections for the pilot workforce and adequate remuneration.
If we go down the path of the AWA then we lose ALL of that. The job becomes a dutch auction.
In five years we, and those who follow us could be:
1. Paying 40,000 dollars for the priviledge of flying any new version of our employers aeroplanes.
2. Getting promotion on the basis of "Are you willing to sign this contract?"
3. Losing many years of invested time in a company as seniority becomes irrelevant.
4. Be forced to go offshore chasing the last worthwhile remuneration standards for this industry.
To say that those who are returning to J* are just doing the best for themselves and their families is only telling half of the story. The rest of the book will be completed in a few years time. How is it going to end? The complete disintegration of what was once a worthwhile career, or the story of how some people with a vested interest in maintaining a worthwhile endeavour rose above their petty squabbles, unified and resisted the threat?
This is not an ad for AIPA. This is a plea for unity. Look past the next few months and see the overall Oldmeadow game plan. AIPA, AFAP, the JPC and the ordinary pilots represented by those organisations need to become partners in the defence of our profession. Anything less will be suicidal.
Some of us, with a long term perspective, have worked it out already; some plainly haven't.
The aim of J* is an end to collective bargaining in this industry. Now a lot of you are going to say "So what?" to that statement and perhaps even "good riddance" from a few of the usual suspects.
If we cannot collectively bargain then any certainty in this industry goes out the window. Even for the QF haters in this forum, there is a need to understand that the current QF Certified Agreement, the thing that Oldmeadow and his mates are actively working to destroy, represents the last australian aviation career path that is stable, with protections for the pilot workforce and adequate remuneration.
If we go down the path of the AWA then we lose ALL of that. The job becomes a dutch auction.
In five years we, and those who follow us could be:
1. Paying 40,000 dollars for the priviledge of flying any new version of our employers aeroplanes.
2. Getting promotion on the basis of "Are you willing to sign this contract?"
3. Losing many years of invested time in a company as seniority becomes irrelevant.
4. Be forced to go offshore chasing the last worthwhile remuneration standards for this industry.
To say that those who are returning to J* are just doing the best for themselves and their families is only telling half of the story. The rest of the book will be completed in a few years time. How is it going to end? The complete disintegration of what was once a worthwhile career, or the story of how some people with a vested interest in maintaining a worthwhile endeavour rose above their petty squabbles, unified and resisted the threat?
This is not an ad for AIPA. This is a plea for unity. Look past the next few months and see the overall Oldmeadow game plan. AIPA, AFAP, the JPC and the ordinary pilots represented by those organisations need to become partners in the defence of our profession. Anything less will be suicidal.