Jetstar/AO threads Merged
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Lagrange -
Re. CRM... I cannot speak for pilots but the Impulse/Jetstar CRM program for cabin crew was FAR more thorough than what I have experienced at Qantas. I am not suggesting the QF one is not adequate - just that the CRM programs I attended at VQ/JQ were more intensive. And we always had both pilots AND cabin crew attending the same course.
I left 'The Star' six months ago and things may have changed, ofcourse. Six months at Jetstar is a very long time!
Danny -
I agree. We FAs at Jetstar had a saying... "Have you ever heard of an airline where your colleagues congratulate you for leaving?" We used to laugh at how ecstatic we became when someone said they were quitting and how happy we were for them.
I really miss my colleagues at 'The Star'. No matter how miserable the company made us feel (or how many APS officers and ambulances we had to call for violent pax and drug overdoses) we ALWAYS had a great day.
Re. CRM... I cannot speak for pilots but the Impulse/Jetstar CRM program for cabin crew was FAR more thorough than what I have experienced at Qantas. I am not suggesting the QF one is not adequate - just that the CRM programs I attended at VQ/JQ were more intensive. And we always had both pilots AND cabin crew attending the same course.
I left 'The Star' six months ago and things may have changed, ofcourse. Six months at Jetstar is a very long time!
Danny -
I agree. We FAs at Jetstar had a saying... "Have you ever heard of an airline where your colleagues congratulate you for leaving?" We used to laugh at how ecstatic we became when someone said they were quitting and how happy we were for them.
I really miss my colleagues at 'The Star'. No matter how miserable the company made us feel (or how many APS officers and ambulances we had to call for violent pax and drug overdoses) we ALWAYS had a great day.
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I think most of the guys going to Jetstar are guys who have just got their residency, and are perhaps in the process of getting Australian passports. It would appear that most Australians with families have done the figures, and they don't add up as compared to EK, so once again the lifestyle versus career argument presents itself. The single guys are ok with it and some probably will go. I believe the figure is around 10 guys. I assume the TRI/TRE's will get paid more and will have a deal to maintain a command after 3 yrs.
Perhaps Jetstar may increase the package slightly for individuals to attract the numbers they need. As far as the 20k with EK is concerned, that is only true if you live outside of the EK accommodation system and take the allowance. If you are single then the pay is ok, however if you have a family and are exposed to the high inflation your disposable income does not look to flash.Thats why the single guys have all the toys. And good luck to them.
All the best Woodja I'm sure you'll have a great time.
Perhaps Jetstar may increase the package slightly for individuals to attract the numbers they need. As far as the 20k with EK is concerned, that is only true if you live outside of the EK accommodation system and take the allowance. If you are single then the pay is ok, however if you have a family and are exposed to the high inflation your disposable income does not look to flash.Thats why the single guys have all the toys. And good luck to them.
All the best Woodja I'm sure you'll have a great time.
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Fist, Bolty and Longjock...still think it's a wind up?? Chimbu had a change of heart! 
Foreign pilots employed on AWAs at 230k (60-70K above the incumbent Aussie guys) and a no demotion guarantee!! Haven't I seen this movie before??
Guess who is buying the beers on those long hot "days off" in HNL??
Foreign pilots employed on AWAs at 230k (60-70K above the incumbent Aussie guys) and a no demotion guarantee!! Haven't I seen this movie before??
Guess who is buying the beers on those long hot "days off" in HNL??
LTBC et al...
So lets look to the future for a moment...
2007
AO integrates seamlessly into QF colours and uniforms. No great loss... all the guys are on what they considered fair and equitable conditions right?! A lot of the boys are earning the same, if not more than they would be in mainline... And they are still mainline guys flying mainline aircraft right?!
2008
All of a sudden, JQ Intl comes onto the scene, with their overgenerous marketing budgets from management and just their domestic brothers, make a huge profit (QF A330s transferred over, just like the freebie A320s given to QF as a gift for buying the A380). Thats great they make a profit, as it distracts from the real QF Group finanacial results. Thats right, the sustainable futures program! Yes its sustainable, for those who leave in mid 2008 (formerly 2007)!
2009
Over time this JQI false economy begins to fall apart and it is decided that maybe those aircraft could be better utilised under the QF brand.
AND HERE IS THE CLINCHER...
In years gone by, AO was seamlessly changed over to the QF brand and there were no great problems there... So lets do the same with JQI... What a win!! JQI now wetlease their operation to QF for half (or whatever figure you chose to cook the books with) price. Hey they even chose to have their days off overseas (JQI pilots only have their domestic colleagues to thank for that lot! What a win!)!! Thats ok though, coz all of us are aiming to move onto QF and other airlines around the globe after a bit of time at JQI... Sorry fellas! Its not going to work like that, the whole industry has been brought down by the actions of a few. No longer are you able to aim for a higher paying job elsewhere, because the standard has been set by none other than yourselves!
And now back to the present....
What can we do about it? Well, unfortunately those JQ boys in their infinite brainwashing have already set our whole industry back a long way... but now is the time we must stand up and secure our conditions for the future! Stop undercutting eachother and protect what has been fought for long and hard! If you want that job with a major, DONT UNDERCUT THE JOB YOU ARE AFTER!
This post is not intended to 'get up' any particular group of pilots, but for goodness sakes look at what is happening to our industry!! We are being undercut by no one but ourselves!!!!!
So lets look to the future for a moment...
2007
AO integrates seamlessly into QF colours and uniforms. No great loss... all the guys are on what they considered fair and equitable conditions right?! A lot of the boys are earning the same, if not more than they would be in mainline... And they are still mainline guys flying mainline aircraft right?!
2008
All of a sudden, JQ Intl comes onto the scene, with their overgenerous marketing budgets from management and just their domestic brothers, make a huge profit (QF A330s transferred over, just like the freebie A320s given to QF as a gift for buying the A380). Thats great they make a profit, as it distracts from the real QF Group finanacial results. Thats right, the sustainable futures program! Yes its sustainable, for those who leave in mid 2008 (formerly 2007)!
2009
Over time this JQI false economy begins to fall apart and it is decided that maybe those aircraft could be better utilised under the QF brand.
AND HERE IS THE CLINCHER...
In years gone by, AO was seamlessly changed over to the QF brand and there were no great problems there... So lets do the same with JQI... What a win!! JQI now wetlease their operation to QF for half (or whatever figure you chose to cook the books with) price. Hey they even chose to have their days off overseas (JQI pilots only have their domestic colleagues to thank for that lot! What a win!)!! Thats ok though, coz all of us are aiming to move onto QF and other airlines around the globe after a bit of time at JQI... Sorry fellas! Its not going to work like that, the whole industry has been brought down by the actions of a few. No longer are you able to aim for a higher paying job elsewhere, because the standard has been set by none other than yourselves!
And now back to the present....
What can we do about it? Well, unfortunately those JQ boys in their infinite brainwashing have already set our whole industry back a long way... but now is the time we must stand up and secure our conditions for the future! Stop undercutting eachother and protect what has been fought for long and hard! If you want that job with a major, DONT UNDERCUT THE JOB YOU ARE AFTER!
This post is not intended to 'get up' any particular group of pilots, but for goodness sakes look at what is happening to our industry!! We are being undercut by no one but ourselves!!!!!
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Fistf..ker
Just reviewing your enlightening posts here, there and everywhere.
Let me take a wild guess……
Not so long ago you started out life as the illegitimate child of a Belgian prostitute who had webbed feet. Your Daddy purchased a licence for you and was prone to utterances such as…”I invented the question mark!”
Now days you’re a young Red Hot, hugely experienced Jetstar Capt jock?
‘Cause buddy…it shows.
UNOME you couldn't be further from the truth of the matter. It might pay to be a little more circumspect about deciding, based on a very small number of Pprune posts, just what link someone holds in the aviation food chain.
Woomera
Just reviewing your enlightening posts here, there and everywhere.
Let me take a wild guess……
Not so long ago you started out life as the illegitimate child of a Belgian prostitute who had webbed feet. Your Daddy purchased a licence for you and was prone to utterances such as…”I invented the question mark!”
Now days you’re a young Red Hot, hugely experienced Jetstar Capt jock?
‘Cause buddy…it shows.
UNOME you couldn't be further from the truth of the matter. It might pay to be a little more circumspect about deciding, based on a very small number of Pprune posts, just what link someone holds in the aviation food chain.
Woomera
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Woodja51 hit the nail on the head.
Anyone who thinks 30 blokes quitting EK to go to J* will sway EK management is living in fairy land.
Much the same as J* Management spruking that they have hundreds of crew ready to quit Emirates and Dragon to fly any widebody as the company may operate for S.F.A!!
Check what Air Luxor are paying to get the going rate for A330 inAus. That is the REAL going rate for Widebody Contract pay in this part of the world. $11US Base plus plus
Cheers,
Con
Anyone who thinks 30 blokes quitting EK to go to J* will sway EK management is living in fairy land.
Much the same as J* Management spruking that they have hundreds of crew ready to quit Emirates and Dragon to fly any widebody as the company may operate for S.F.A!!
Check what Air Luxor are paying to get the going rate for A330 inAus. That is the REAL going rate for Widebody Contract pay in this part of the world. $11US Base plus plus
Cheers,
Con
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CON has summed it up perfectly, JET* continue to dream if they think the floodgates will open and their crewing issues will be solved
I got offered an interview with them as a Kiwi with a JAA ATPL (was interested originally in the NZCH base) but when I found out the actual conditions..the hoops to jump through, and the "fluid" management practices, I told them no thanks.
A couple of EK mates of mine were offered interviews and turned them down as well
I got offered an interview with them as a Kiwi with a JAA ATPL (was interested originally in the NZCH base) but when I found out the actual conditions..the hoops to jump through, and the "fluid" management practices, I told them no thanks.
A couple of EK mates of mine were offered interviews and turned them down as well
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Keg, Yes I have heard of AWA's. However the current certified agreement is written as applying to "all pilots employed by Jetstar", therefore to employ some pilots under AWA's would be in breach of the agreement. Not a position management want to take at this point, I wouldn't think. Management pilots are outside the agreement and are employed under seperate management contracts. The Company and the Pilot Council reached agreement on conditions that would permit the employment of enough people to get the job done.
UNOME, at this point in time what you call TRI/TRE are still employed under the agreement and as such are subject to the three year command deal. The agreement states that one must have the seniority for a command to hold a TRI/TRE position. Therefore technically at the end of the tree year deal such persons would revert to whatever position there seniority would by them. It is however anticipated that the positions available would be sufficient(as a result of 12 wide body aircraft minimum) that nobody would be adversely affected. It is possible that the Company may have promised a permanent left seat position because of that or if the Company chose to keep them on in the left seat this would also be possible under the agreement by the payment of bypass pay to any pilots adveresely affected with reference to seniority. The Company does not like paying bypass.
The figure of $230K sounds like a phurphy because it is significantly more than even management pilots get paid. But if the Company is willing to pay that to secure the sevices of some key personnell, great, that is supply and demand. I doubt there would be a crew room problem. However I think I would need some tangible evidence before I could change my view regarding the wind up.
For all those reading to much into Jet* sending a team to EK , this was done simply for the convenience of the applicants on file, rather than 30 or 50 having to find rhere way to Oz in dribs and drabs. There were certainly enough applicants to justify this.
Jet* is not deperate for crew. It certainly needs pilots but the vast majority will come on throught the F.O. ranks on both the narrowbody and widebody aircraft.
UNOME, at this point in time what you call TRI/TRE are still employed under the agreement and as such are subject to the three year command deal. The agreement states that one must have the seniority for a command to hold a TRI/TRE position. Therefore technically at the end of the tree year deal such persons would revert to whatever position there seniority would by them. It is however anticipated that the positions available would be sufficient(as a result of 12 wide body aircraft minimum) that nobody would be adversely affected. It is possible that the Company may have promised a permanent left seat position because of that or if the Company chose to keep them on in the left seat this would also be possible under the agreement by the payment of bypass pay to any pilots adveresely affected with reference to seniority. The Company does not like paying bypass.
The figure of $230K sounds like a phurphy because it is significantly more than even management pilots get paid. But if the Company is willing to pay that to secure the sevices of some key personnell, great, that is supply and demand. I doubt there would be a crew room problem. However I think I would need some tangible evidence before I could change my view regarding the wind up.
For all those reading to much into Jet* sending a team to EK , this was done simply for the convenience of the applicants on file, rather than 30 or 50 having to find rhere way to Oz in dribs and drabs. There were certainly enough applicants to justify this.
Jet* is not deperate for crew. It certainly needs pilots but the vast majority will come on throught the F.O. ranks on both the narrowbody and widebody aircraft.
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Lagrange, my response to Eagle... was simply meant to reflect that too big a deal was being made of the "unconfirmed buzz from the pub". To suggest that any of Jet* CM,s would deliberately withhold crucial information for personal convenience is silly in the extreme. However it is possible that information transfer loss, differences in "what I thought I said" and "what you think you heard" are far more likely an explanation.
I have attended many CRM course with a number of providers and the Jet* course is one of the best. It combines tech crew and cabin crew on the same course. The workers have a very strong CRM commitment
The case you mention regarding the young Cabin Crew member is very disappointing. I have not heard about it. I wonder if they asked any of the others. It is worth pursuing. It would not surprise too many pilots to discover that Management does not always practise what it preaches, whatever the airline. There will always be issues that require resolving.
UNOME, far from the mark my dear chap. My recent renewed interest in this forum is twofold. I have recently obtained broadband (previously not available in my area) which makes the site more accessible and the constant attacks on my airline and my colleagues, often made from ignorance, coupled with perspective that I have received from seeing worse places to work.
I have attended many CRM course with a number of providers and the Jet* course is one of the best. It combines tech crew and cabin crew on the same course. The workers have a very strong CRM commitment
The case you mention regarding the young Cabin Crew member is very disappointing. I have not heard about it. I wonder if they asked any of the others. It is worth pursuing. It would not surprise too many pilots to discover that Management does not always practise what it preaches, whatever the airline. There will always be issues that require resolving.
UNOME, far from the mark my dear chap. My recent renewed interest in this forum is twofold. I have recently obtained broadband (previously not available in my area) which makes the site more accessible and the constant attacks on my airline and my colleagues, often made from ignorance, coupled with perspective that I have received from seeing worse places to work.
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OneDot, why do you think JQ guys have their days off overseas?
It is guaranteed in the JQ agreement that a minimum of 9 or 10 days off per month will be at home base. Any days off required for CAO purposes or whatever, overseas, are additional to those. This is a commonly held incorrect interpretation of the agreement. The rest of your attack on JQ is equally poorly informed. There is no JQI or JQ domestic. There is but one JQ that operates both a narrowbody and a widebody fleet. Both fleets can and do operate internationally.
It would be interesting if all the JQ knockers found out some real facts about the organisation before savagely attacking it and its employees.
It is guaranteed in the JQ agreement that a minimum of 9 or 10 days off per month will be at home base. Any days off required for CAO purposes or whatever, overseas, are additional to those. This is a commonly held incorrect interpretation of the agreement. The rest of your attack on JQ is equally poorly informed. There is no JQI or JQ domestic. There is but one JQ that operates both a narrowbody and a widebody fleet. Both fleets can and do operate internationally.
It would be interesting if all the JQ knockers found out some real facts about the organisation before savagely attacking it and its employees.
fistfokker,
i'd be doing some maths before I would place money on continuing the LH seat position after 3 years - there are a heck of a lot of guys in the seniority list already. Also, what happens when the temporary A330s are replaced by the 787s - A330 TRI/TREs won't be required anymore?
i'd be doing some maths before I would place money on continuing the LH seat position after 3 years - there are a heck of a lot of guys in the seniority list already. Also, what happens when the temporary A330s are replaced by the 787s - A330 TRI/TREs won't be required anymore?
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Ditzyboy said:
Ironically this is the scene playing out in ALL Qantas subsidiary airlines with both tech and cabin crews.
If nothing else, plenty of farewell parties to go to for us
Atmosphere @ these shindigs is one of getting paroled from Alcatraz
Still, the (mis)management of said company's care nought about retention rates.
We FAs at Jetstar had a saying... "Have you ever heard of an airline where your colleagues congratulate you for leaving?" We used to laugh at how ecstatic we became when someone said they were quitting and how happy we were for them.
If nothing else, plenty of farewell parties to go to for us
Atmosphere @ these shindigs is one of getting paroled from Alcatraz Still, the (mis)management of said company's care nought about retention rates.
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T.D
You beat me to it.
Some of the stories being told here by our JQ comrades have been happening to the rest of us in other parts of QF for much much much longer than that.
Welcome to the poisoned chalice if QF. Doesn't matter which part ur in it's all the same.
"Floggings will continue until morale improves"
You beat me to it.
Some of the stories being told here by our JQ comrades have been happening to the rest of us in other parts of QF for much much much longer than that.
Welcome to the poisoned chalice if QF. Doesn't matter which part ur in it's all the same.
"Floggings will continue until morale improves"
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Woomera
Well it was after all a light hearted dig.....and not knowing the chap personally (as you do) I can only base my comments on what he has posted.
However, noted, and good to see you stick up for a mate.
BTW Whatever happened to anonymity?? I sure hope the Jetstar management are not privy to the personal information of Pprunesters, especially those who take the odd shot!
Well it was after all a light hearted dig.....and not knowing the chap personally (as you do) I can only base my comments on what he has posted.
However, noted, and good to see you stick up for a mate.
BTW Whatever happened to anonymity?? I sure hope the Jetstar management are not privy to the personal information of Pprunesters, especially those who take the odd shot!
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ff,
It is you that has got it wrong regarding days off.
It is correct to say that days off OS will be in addition to the minimum days off at home, but what you have missed is the true definition of what these minimums are. You can't use assumption (you know whose mother that is), use the actual words.
Read this clause from that wonderous document that you are proud to defend:
This says that the minimum is 9 or 10 days off over 6 roster periods, that’s a long time, plenty of scope for days off OS.
If you are still having trouble interpreting plain English, lets do something simple:
A roster period is a month, so lets replace the word “roster periods” with the word “months”. So how does this read:
You will be rostered free of duty at your Home Base for minimum of 9 designated days off in 6 Months and 10 rostered days off in 6 Months.
I'm afraid you have been sold a pup, and this is only one of 12 very “questionable” clauses (all coincidentally can be interpreted in the companies favor) in that dirty little document.
As you have correctly pointed out this rewritten agreement covers narrow body as well, no one is safe!
It is you that has got it wrong regarding days off.
It is correct to say that days off OS will be in addition to the minimum days off at home, but what you have missed is the true definition of what these minimums are. You can't use assumption (you know whose mother that is), use the actual words.
Read this clause from that wonderous document that you are proud to defend:
25.1.3 “You will be rostered free of duty at your Home Base for minimum of 9 designated days off in 6 roster periods and 10 rostered days off in 6 roster periods. The minimum number of days off in a roster period for a pilot will be notified to the pilot no later than before the end of the preceding period.”
This says that the minimum is 9 or 10 days off over 6 roster periods, that’s a long time, plenty of scope for days off OS.
If you are still having trouble interpreting plain English, lets do something simple:
A roster period is a month, so lets replace the word “roster periods” with the word “months”. So how does this read:
You will be rostered free of duty at your Home Base for minimum of 9 designated days off in 6 Months and 10 rostered days off in 6 Months.
I'm afraid you have been sold a pup, and this is only one of 12 very “questionable” clauses (all coincidentally can be interpreted in the companies favor) in that dirty little document.
As you have correctly pointed out this rewritten agreement covers narrow body as well, no one is safe!
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Considered the possibility that they are not" employed by Jetstar", only working for Jetstar? The AWAs may have an interesting contractor name printed at the top! 