Oct 9 - The real vote on the Aviation Reform Group

[Shitsu-Tonka]

Whilst they don't have a vote, as an aside it is revealing / interesting to see how the election announcement is being viewed from outside Australia, and what the international media perceive as the key issues:

From The BBC:

Opening Line: "The presence of Australian troops in Iraq is expected to dominate the polls. "

"Mr Howard's Liberal/National coalition last won in November 2001, with a strong policy against illegal immigration. "

From Television NZ

"Australians will vote on October 9 in a cliff-hanger election pitting the conservative government against centre-left Labor, with national security and the economy as major issues"

From Straits Times (Singapore):

The poll offers voters the choice of maintaining Mr Howard's controversial military engagement in Iraq or backing Labour leader Mark Latham's vision of pulling hundreds of Australian troops out of the Middle East by Christmas and boosting economic aid to Iraq.

Mr Howard, 65, a staunch ally of US President George W. Bush, sent 2,000 troops to take part in last year's invasion of Iraq...

..Mr Howard arguing his administration is tougher on homeland security and a better guardian of the country's economy.

From: www.washingtonpost.com

"Howard is banking on ../.... strong stand on national security, which included sending troops to Iraq and Afghanistan in enthusiastic support of the United States."

From www.latimes.com

"Among the key issues in the campaign will be the economy, national security and the war in Iraq"

"The vote will pit Howard's three-term conservative coalition against a resurgent Labor Party led by maverick lawmaker Mark Latham. It will offer voters the choice of maintaining Howard's controversial military engagement in Iraq or backing Latham's vision of pulling hundreds of Australian troops out of the Middle East by Christmas and boosting economic aid to Iraq. "

And from our own alternative non-media Crikey!

"On a rainy day in Canberra, John Howard today chose to cut and run to an October 9 election, seeking to avoid parliamentary scrutiny of his Children Overboard obfuscations – and handling Labor its best chance to govern the nation in eight and a half years.
This could be Howard's final crazy-brave act as Prime Minister, and it was a doozy. He will allow the Senate to sit for two days, during which time Labor will combine with the minor parties to re-open the Kids Ahoy inquiry.

This is very dangerous, and Bob Brown has just told journalists he would move to keep the Senate itself running during the election campaign to put the Government under a Children Overboard blowtorch. This is an unprecedented move that will fill the Government with dread as it tries to push the PM's election platform of – wait for it – "trust"."

[Duff Man]

http://www.justnotjohn.com/

[Chronic Snoozer]

S-T

I'm not going to pick a fight about aviation policy/management. Indefensible. Disgraceful. Has been for quite some time now wouldn't you agree? Countless reorganisations and re-printing of stationary to administer a pretty simple part of the world (in aviation policy terms) Not high on the list of election issues according to the links you posted. Therein lies the problem.

However I try not to confuse the man with the party. I don't like liars either, hell they all do it, thats politics. Its almost a choice about which lies you choose to accept/believe and those you don't. I don't give a rats about the overboard thing. Its the only pathetic 'issue' the media go on about. Although I thought it really, really poor form to besmirch Defence as the government did.

I just happen to think a change of party leader is in order, not a change of party. Otherwise it could be case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Shitsu-Tonka]

I accept your point of view.

But would you seriously fear spilling the bathwater consisting of John Anderson, Alexander Downer, Wilson Tuckey, Phillip (Monty) Ruddock, Amanda Vanstone, Larry Anthony.....?

Even in this vicious drought I would happily see that aquatic talent pool swirling down the plughole forever.

[Chronic Snoozer]

S-T

By what measure are you judging these people? I don't know them personally, and I'm certainly not going to believe 10sec media grabs about how bad they are/seem/perform. There are a shedload of public servants that run government capably in spite of these MPs, and I'm not certain that IF the party in power were to change we wouldn't be replicating this exact same exchange in say 2 years.

I'm not prepared to run them out of town before I'm sure who's gonna be sherrif instead.

Its important to remember that people running for office want power and that generally means saying anything to get it. Its like a tri-annual groundhog day. Of course Labour could do a better job, trust us!

[woftam]

Umm...............Who is this "Labour" party anyway?
Don't you mean "Labor"?

Johnny aint perfect by any stretch.......but the country hasn't got anywhere near the credit card bill that it had under the "labour" party.

[Rich-Fine-Green]

I have a long memory.

I remember trying to pay off aeroplanes and a house at 15% - 20% interest under Labor!!.

I remember a destroyed G.A. due to the previous Labor Govt.

Anderson has been a hopeless Transport Minister (except for QF), however, Collins and other Labor Ministers were worse.

The Liberals may not be perfect, but they have run the country pretty well through two world economic downturns and Australia got through it pretty well.

I remember under Labor, everytime the world had a small economic downturn, Australia's economy suffered.

D.P. - Labor's hopeless economic skills are not an Urban Myth - It happened. I was there - were you?!.

I remember LATHAM'S economic policy during HIS Mayor term of Liverpool City sent the City broke.

Look at ALL the spending promises Latham has made in the last 9 months. Books for Kids, 100% bulk-billing etc etc etc etc.

IF he keeps his promises - the country will be broke for sure. At least the Liberal spending spree is paid for.

As for trust and telling the truth - Look at Latham:

Beats up Taxi Driver.
Beats up City of Liverpool Labor member.
Beats up first Wife (her story).

As much as I think Anderson is a total zero and that Howard will not be there for a full term - it is still better than the alternative offered by Labor.

GST: Correct me if I am wrong: But GST can only be increased if all the states and Govt. agrees......

IF Labor wins, there will be total Labor control - state and Federal.

Under labor - I foresee an increase in GST from 10% to 12.5 % as per New Zealand.

[Sunfish]

Rule !: "Oppositions don't win, the Government loses"

It does not matter what Latham does or says. Its what Howard does or says. My guess is that Howard may get back in, but only just, by running another fear uncertainty and doubt campaign.

Fear - of terrorism, union power, interest rate rises.

Uncertainty - What is Latham really going to do?

Doubt - Can Latham do it?


Latham has to counter all of this which is not going to be easy. Calling Howard a liar is one thing, but coping with a FUD campaign is another.

[NAMPS]

RFG, I remember all those things too.

Also, which party was responsible for bringing in HECS? - Labor

The education "rung" in the "ladder of opportunity" was stuffed up in the first place by Labor.

[DirtyPierre]

Sorry, but Labor governments have not been financially inept. They spend there funds on social programs that the Liberals think are not required. Obviously you feel the same.

Labor governments don't send Australian troops to Vietnam, Afghanistan, or Iraq. In 1974, Labor stopped cconscription. This was widely cheered by me and my friends at the time. I didn't want to be another fatality in a futile war in a south-eastern country.

I remember trying to pay off aeroplanes and a house at 15% - 20% interest under Labor!!.

Actually, when the Labor government came to power at that time, interest rates were 13% and rose to 19%. The economy has an inertia that lasts longer than the term of a government, so saying one government alone causes high interest rates is a furphy. Any financial advisor will tell you this.

D.P. - Labor's hopeless economic skills are not an Urban Myth - It happened. I was there - were you?!.

I have been a voter since 1976, when I turned 18, so yes I was there. Labor with its bevy of Rhodes scholars as leaders, are not hopeless economic managers. They like to initiate programs of social concience.

I got my Uni degree without having to pay a cent for it. My children will be in debt for years to receive a similar education. How hopeless is that!

I work hard to self fund my retirement, yet my super is taxed at 15%. How fair is that?

Every service and goods I receive are taxed at 10%. No wonder the Liberals are such great economic managers. They introduced a new tax, that taxes everything! Even me with my Human Movements degree and my diploma in aviation can work out the economics there.

Not too many boat people when Labor was in government. Might be something to do with foreign policy and Oz-Indonesian relations at the time.

Medicare.....is being decimated by the Liberals. Even the AMA, normally big supporters of the Liberals, have publicly denounced the governments health policies. My father is a GP, as are my uncle, my brother and 4 cousins. Most work in the same practice and most will probably not vote Liberal this year, some for the first time, because of the governments determination to destroy our good public health system.

NAS.......been done to death, but this alone is a big reason for me not to support a Liberal government.

Enough reasons for a change. I think so.

[rtforu]

The way I see it, Howard lives in the past, he lies and gets a big brown nose every time he visits the US or his mother country England.

Downer is a stupid man who should never had held a position in government, he makes Australia look stupid!

Anderson should be jailed.

Get rid of this lot, bring on the republic!

[Howard Hughes]

Hang on whats all this talk about Howard?

Oh and ****su I take offence to your banner!!

What have I ever done for you? Perhaps as much as my namesake? ie: NOTHING!!


On a more serious note, you can change elected members if you like, however, the same public servants and appointed representatives will still be running the country and that includes our friends at the airspace reform group!!

Cheers, HH.

[Jet_A_Knight]

Try feeding, educating, clothing and entertaining a familywithout a squillion dollar income under this government and then tell me they're doing a good job.



Not to mention making us all look like a bunch of lap-dogs across the world. Once upon a time, we didn't have an enemy in the world.

[Duff Man]

Visit my Election 2004 quicklinks page find links to sites like this:
and more.

The divide between rich and poor has never been so great in all of Australia's modern history. Howard et al are trampling on the less fortunate, marginalised, soft targets. Abusing human rights. YOU may have it comfortable, but you are fortunate. You are comfortable at the expense of many, many others.

[Shitsu-Tonka]

Sorry HH, but I tell it as I see it. They ARE liars. Not white lies - big Porkers!

Your point about the public service:

the same public servants and appointed representatives will still be running the country

I 100% agree. The same public servants who have done such a fine job running finance and treasury that all the Howard supporters here give him credit for. Remember: Treasury set interest rates - the Reserve Bank governor, NOT Costello or Howard.

The same public servants, of whom their better numbers continued to offer frank and fearless advise to their respective ministers - Scrafton, Wilkie, and the 'Daquiri Diplomats' who all know that the Truth was the only thing thrown overboard.

When the real truth gets out, the Howard team swings in to action and does the only thing they know how - play the man and play him hard. Remember how long it took Howard to reprimand that cockroach Bill Heffernan over his unfounded attack on High Court Justice Kirby? Disgraceful conduct. And they continue it to this day.

I think you can continue to have faith in the non-political appointees of the Australian Public Service to run the country.

The same can not be said for the shifty, mean-spirited lot in the current cabinet. The only relaxed and comfortable beneficiaries are all the ex-Ministers working as 'consultants' - Reith and Alston spring immediately to mind.

Is Howard and his government fit to govern Australia? What of the following charges (source:tonykevin.com):

Did the Howard government deliberately ignore repeated Australian official intelligence reports, and public reports, of serious Indonesian Army-sponsored killings and other human rights abuses in East Timor throughout 1999 that culminated in the massacres of up to 2000 East Timorese, forced expulsions of 100,000 East Timorese, and the scorched-earth destruction of scores of towns and villages in East Timor, in the three weeks after the UN-supervised referendum in September 1999 ? Was it Australian policy to maintain Indonesian acquiescence and international diplomatic momentum towards the UN referendum and subsequent UN authorisation of the international peacekeeping force INTERFET, regardless of the human rights abuses suffered by the East Timorese on the way ? Was this policy of turning a blind eye to these human rights violations in East Timor contrary to Australia’s international legal obligations under the UN Human Rights convention ?

The decisions were Downer’s, but the command responsibility was John Howard’s.

Was there criminality in Australia’s setting-up and operating at arms-length a mostly covert people smuggling disruption program in Indonesia 2000-2001, involving the use of Australian-recruited Indonesian police disruption teams (i.e., our mercenaries) and undercover civilian agents (eg Kevin Enniss), and which allegedly contributed to the deaths by drowning of unknown numbers of asylum-seekers in unsafe boats that were deliberately sunk off the coasts of Indonesia ?

Responsibility for this potentially criminal program lay within the portfolio responsibilities of Ruddock and Ellison (in respect of DIMIA and AFP), and possibly Downer (in respect of ASIS) but the command responsibility was John Howard’s.

Did Australian border protection and maritime rescue authorities criminally put over 400 people’s lives at risk on the asylum-seeker vessel Palapa, which in August 2001 very nearly sank in an overnight storm 60 miles from Christmas Island, after Australian authorities had twice overflown and inspected it on the previous day, but had chosen to ignore the passengers’ obvious hand-signals appealing for rescue from their damaged and immobilised boat ? Did this negligence, which very nearly caused over 400 deaths, violate Australia’s safety of life at sea international and domestic law obligations?

The decisions were made by Coastwatch and the Australian Maritime Safety Authority under the ministerial portfolio responsibility of Ellison. The command responsibility was John Howard’s.

Did Australian authorities criminally put at risk the lives of over 200 asylum-seekers, who could well have drowned during an illegal 22 hours circular tow by HMAS Adelaide on 7-8 October 2001, during which time they were ordered to remain on board their unseaworthy and sinking vessel Olong (SIEV 4), within 24 miles of Christmas Island ? Did Canberra’s orders to Commander Banks of Adelaide to keep the people on board their boat under post-rescue tow violate Australia’s safety of life at sea international and domestic legal obligations?

The decisions were allegedly made by the Prime Minister’s Department-chaired People Smuggling Taskforce and by the ADF (under Defence Minister Reith), but the command responsibility was John Howard’s.

Did Australian border protection authorities fail in their duty to conduct a legally required safety of life at sea search for the 353 people who drowned when their asylum-seeker boat SIEV X sank in the Australian border protection surveillance and interception zone on 19 October 2001 ? Have these authorities made deliberate efforts from then until today to cover up the facts of this alleged serious evasion of Australia’s safety of life at sea legal responsibilities ?

The decisions were made mainly by the ADF under Defence Ministers Reith and Hill, but the command responsibility was John Howard’s.

Did Downer, aided by his department DFAT, choose to take no action over a period of 13 months prior to the Bali bombings in October 2002, pursuant to at least three ONA and ASIO generic intelligence warnings of possible terrorist attacks on Western bars in holiday resorts in Indonesia ? Was the failure to amend DFAT travel advices in respect of Bali on the basis of these clear warnings, a manifest breakdown in the Foreign Minister’s duty of consular care to Australian citizens travelling abroad ?. Is there a legal case of contributory Australian government negligence in respect of the deaths of over 200 people including 88 Australians in the Bali bombings ?

The decisions were made by Downer, but the command responsibility was John Howard’s.

The attempt to destroy Justice Michael Kirby’s public reputation and tenure as a High Court of Australia judge, based on a libellous forged paper trail and associated unfounded accusations, is on public record. . The circumstances of Senator Heffernan’s public claims were defamatory and potentially litigable had Justice Kirby chose to go that route.

The actions were apparently initiated by Parliamentary Secretary Senator Bill Heffernan, but the command responsibility was John Howard’s. Howard to some extent accepted this, in demoting Heffernan: but he never made a proper apology to Justice Kirby.

The successful destruction of Pauline Hanson’s One Nation Party by highly dubious legal manoeuvres, culminating in her unjustified (and three months’ later judicially overruled) jailing. Pauline Hanson would have a strong legal criminal case against those who allegedly set out clandestinely to destroy her party and violate her rights as a citizen, should she ever choose to mount such action.

The legal actions were allegedly set in train by a group set up by Tony Abbott, but the command responsibility was John Howard’s.

The misrepresentation and misuse of coalition intelligence re alleged WMD in Iraq, prior to the coalition invasion. It appears that Howard took our nation to war on false pretences.
The action and command responsibility were John Howard’s.

The government decision to involve Australia’s ADF in the invasion of a sovereign nation Iraq, an invasion that did not have UN Security Council authorisation and was therefore illegal according to the general consensus of international government and expert opinion.
The action and command responsibility were John Howard’s.

The launch of secret pre-emptive ADF armed combat inside Iraq 30 hours before the expiry of a declared 48-hour coalition pre-war ultimatum to Saddam , and the misleading by Howard of the Australian Parliament and people at the time as to when Australian combat would start, and the subsequent attempts (after the timing of the covert preemptive attack had been exposed) to pretend that the preemptive attack was properly authorised and in accordance with the laws of war. How many Iraqi soldiers died during these 30 hours of illegal undeclared warfare ?
The action was under Defence Minister Hill but the command responsibility was John Howard’s.

The now admitted denial and cover-up of what Australian ADF officers serving with American forces in Iraq may have known and reported back to Canberra since September 2003 about ongoing tortures (including deaths under torture) of Iraqi prisoners in American-run military prisons in Iraq. Why was nothing was done by Australian authorities to protest against this obvious misconduct by their coalition partner in the military occupation of Iraq ? Were Australian human rights obligations and obligations as a signatory to the international Convention against Torture thereby breached?
The action was under Defence Minister Hill’s portfolio but the command responsibility was John Howard’s.

The neglect over nearly three years of the Australian government’s legal duty of care to its citizens Hicks and Habib who have been imprisoned without charge or prospect of fair trial at the US military prison of Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Were Australian consular protection and international human rights obligations, and possibly Australia’s obligations as a signatory to the international Convention against Torture, breached by this neglected duty of care ?
The actions were under Attorneys-General Williams and Ruddock, but the command responsibility was John Howard’s

Continuing well-documented cruelties from 1999 to the present day towards asylum-seeker men, women and children, in detention or under house arrest in Australia or Nauru, or living under the cruel uncertainty of never-ending (at the immigration minister’s pleasure) Temporary Protection Visas. It seems clear that Australia’s human rights obligations, and possibly Australia’s obligations as a signatory to the international Convention against Torture, were thereby breached.
The actions were under immigration ministers Ruddock and Vanstone and Attorney-General Ruddock, but the command responsibility was John Howard’s.

[Boney]

Who says Aussies don't care about politics?

I have been a Liberal voter all my life but will never vote liberal ever again. That low life took this country to war, against the wishes of the majority and based on bull$hit.

For the first time ever, this country went to war as an agressor. The day it happened, for the first time, I was ashamed to be an Australian.

Bush, Howard and Blair should be arrested by The United Nations and charged as war criminals. If it were anyone else besides The United States of Aggression, this is exactly what would happen. I would love to work in The Middle East but would be too embarrassed these days.

Howard, you sir are an absolute disgrace to the office of Prime Minister. Rot in hell you horrible little turd.

[Whiskery]

THIS is the reason I'll be voting LIBERAL

Boney

I would love to work in The Middle East but would be too embarrassed these days.

I work in the Middle East and you don't have to feel embarrassed. I have local friends who are most thankful to see the end of The Butcher of Bagdad.

[Pharcarnell]

Whiskery?
You actually believe political publications? Silly boy.

It matters not whose hand is on the whip or with what colour political brush he(she)'s been tarred, we're still in for a flogging.

History of the last few decades show we are as badly off under either of the major mobs. Our economy is peanuts to the ones that matter and we survive, generally, despite their best efforts, not because of them.

What we need is to be able to Control our politicians, not have to take what they decide we should have, which invariably means to their interest and the furthering of their agenda, not ours. The only time you get a pollie to listen is when they are trying to suck up to you get another session at the trough, then you are ingnored.
Bring on Citizens Initiated Referendums. I want my representative to represent ME, not only the guy that has most recently bought him/her.

It's gonna be a LONG 6 weeks!

[Howard Hughes]

This is a great thread, but I think the links to political sites should be stopped.

I mean I cant believe that you guys(&gals) read that drivel, let alone think it has any merits!!

I think Pharcarnell said it best:

It matters not whose hand is on the whip or with what colour political brush he(she)'s been tarred, we're still in for a flogging.

Cheers, HH.

[Shitsu-Tonka]

Whiskery,

Just in case I have misinterpreted your rationale...

You will be voting Liberal because you read on John Howards own website what a great job he is doing?

Is that correct?

The Libs must just love the inquiring minds of their faithful.