Song and dance over 'ageist' Virgin
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Song and dance over 'ageist' Virgin
Thurs "The Australian"
Discrimination? ... Virgin Blue will have to answer claims it only hires young, pretty hostesses.
Song and dance over 'ageist' Virgin
By Scott Emerson
August 19, 2004
THEY are seen as too old and too ugly, but they are fighting back.
A group of experienced female flight attendants are taking Virgin Blue to the Queensland Anti-Discrimination Board over the stereotype of the youthful trolley dolly.
"It became very clear that if you weren't young, blonde, gorgeous and with legs up to your armpits, you had no chance," said 56-year-old former Ansett flight attendant Carol Dowling, one of the eight women complainants.
Ms Dowling said her interview to become a Virgin Blue flight attendant amounted to little more than a meat market with a song and dance thrown in.
Eight female flight attendants -- aged 36 to 56 when they applied for Virgin Blue jobs in 2001 -- claim that less than 3per cent of the discount, no-frills airline's workforce are older than 33, and that 799 of its 803 flight attendants are under 35.
Ms Dowling said the airline's application process included being asked to demonstrate the "Virgin flair" by singing or dancing.
Ms Dowling believes her 29 years' experience with Ansett Airlines, which collapsed in late 2001, counted for nothing at Virgin, an attitude that contrasted starkly with rival airline Qantas, which interviewed Ms Dowling yesterday for a flight attendant's job.
"They (Qantas) were extremely professional and they asked me things that were extremely relevant," she said.
"It took five hours -- and they didn't ask me to sing or dance."
In the original application to the tribunal there were 10 complainants.
However, two have decided not to proceed further.
The application contended that Virgin not only discriminated against older workers, but that the airline's group test recruitment strategy was indirectly discriminatory in that it "favoured youth".
The Richard Branson-owned Virgin is expected to ask the Brisbane hearing to dismiss the case on the grounds that its search for "Virgin flair" has nothing to do with age.
Virgin Blue head of strategy and communications David Huttner yesterday declined to comment specifically on the case before tomorrow's hearing. "But I can tell you that we have people not just in the office but also on the front line, like cabin crew and check-in staff, of a wide variety of ages and background,' Mr Huttner said.
At an earlier hearing of the case, the tribunal in May upheld Virgin's right to request a song and dance from applicants as part of its recruitment process.
It pointed out that the ability to sing and dance was not dependent on age.
The tribunal found that Virgin actually rejected more candidates aged 18 to 22 than it did those aged 43 to 47, and that the airline actually rejected 93 per cent of candidates under 32 and 92 per cent of candidates above that age.
The discrimination complaint is not the first controversy involving Virgin Blue flight attendants.
In 2001, Virgin Blue angrily denied claims by the Flight Attendants Association of Australia that it had asked female flight attendants to wear G-strings, after several attendants had complained to unions about the requirement.
And a female business executive told the crikey.com.au website that the airline's female flight attendants -- whom she branded "fembots" -- treated her as if she were invisible while they "smilingly farewell every single male passenger".
============================================
Discrimination? ... Virgin Blue will have to answer claims it only hires young, pretty hostesses.
Song and dance over 'ageist' Virgin
By Scott Emerson
August 19, 2004
THEY are seen as too old and too ugly, but they are fighting back.
A group of experienced female flight attendants are taking Virgin Blue to the Queensland Anti-Discrimination Board over the stereotype of the youthful trolley dolly.
"It became very clear that if you weren't young, blonde, gorgeous and with legs up to your armpits, you had no chance," said 56-year-old former Ansett flight attendant Carol Dowling, one of the eight women complainants.
Ms Dowling said her interview to become a Virgin Blue flight attendant amounted to little more than a meat market with a song and dance thrown in.
Eight female flight attendants -- aged 36 to 56 when they applied for Virgin Blue jobs in 2001 -- claim that less than 3per cent of the discount, no-frills airline's workforce are older than 33, and that 799 of its 803 flight attendants are under 35.
Ms Dowling said the airline's application process included being asked to demonstrate the "Virgin flair" by singing or dancing.
Ms Dowling believes her 29 years' experience with Ansett Airlines, which collapsed in late 2001, counted for nothing at Virgin, an attitude that contrasted starkly with rival airline Qantas, which interviewed Ms Dowling yesterday for a flight attendant's job.
"They (Qantas) were extremely professional and they asked me things that were extremely relevant," she said.
"It took five hours -- and they didn't ask me to sing or dance."
In the original application to the tribunal there were 10 complainants.
However, two have decided not to proceed further.
The application contended that Virgin not only discriminated against older workers, but that the airline's group test recruitment strategy was indirectly discriminatory in that it "favoured youth".
The Richard Branson-owned Virgin is expected to ask the Brisbane hearing to dismiss the case on the grounds that its search for "Virgin flair" has nothing to do with age.
Virgin Blue head of strategy and communications David Huttner yesterday declined to comment specifically on the case before tomorrow's hearing. "But I can tell you that we have people not just in the office but also on the front line, like cabin crew and check-in staff, of a wide variety of ages and background,' Mr Huttner said.
At an earlier hearing of the case, the tribunal in May upheld Virgin's right to request a song and dance from applicants as part of its recruitment process.
It pointed out that the ability to sing and dance was not dependent on age.
The tribunal found that Virgin actually rejected more candidates aged 18 to 22 than it did those aged 43 to 47, and that the airline actually rejected 93 per cent of candidates under 32 and 92 per cent of candidates above that age.
The discrimination complaint is not the first controversy involving Virgin Blue flight attendants.
In 2001, Virgin Blue angrily denied claims by the Flight Attendants Association of Australia that it had asked female flight attendants to wear G-strings, after several attendants had complained to unions about the requirement.
And a female business executive told the crikey.com.au website that the airline's female flight attendants -- whom she branded "fembots" -- treated her as if she were invisible while they "smilingly farewell every single male passenger".
============================================
Last edited by Wirraway; 18th Aug 2004 at 22:32.
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About time someone took this mob on. It's been patently obvious since they started that this was their attitude. Hope they get their comeuppance.
'Course they wouldnt give me a job 'coz my legs are too hairy. And thats on the flight deck!
'Course they wouldnt give me a job 'coz my legs are too hairy. And thats on the flight deck!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Ms Dowling believes her 29 years' experience with Ansett Airlines... counted for nothing at Virgin,
Ansett was a full service, 2-class airline - VB is a no-frills, LCC.
No doubt most of Carol's time would have been spent taking care of the First/Business Class passengers.
Pilots who change companies also find out that their new employer is NOT interested in knowing how an employee's former company did things - even if it is a more efficient way.
Fifty-six, imo, isn't the right age to be considering starting work as the most junior (in terms of seniority) F/A in a physically highly demanding work environment.
"They (Qantas) were extremely professional and they asked me things that were extremely relevant," she said.
"It took five hours -- and they didn't ask me to sing or dance."
"It took five hours -- and they didn't ask me to sing or dance."
Fifty-six, imo, isn't the right age to be considering starting work as the most junior (in terms of seniority)
One of the basic principals of LCC is that there IS no seniority. An experienced FA (or pilot or anyone else) can be placed in any position their ability and experience can be benificial. Someone of Carols huge experience would have been perfect in a direct entry or fast tracked Senior/Training role.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
As I don`t work for VB, I`m not sure whether they have a seniority list, however in this case - as with ALL employees - seniority is used wrt length of service within a particular company, as the "senior" F/A`s used to remind the "more junior" F/O`s (and even some "more junior than they" Captains!).
Conversely, Wiz, a "huge" amount of time spent with a company doesn`t necessarily equate to "huge experience" - or it may be "huge experience" not particularly relevant to another operator`s operating procedures.
VB have employed "senior" ex-AN F/A`s in the past, no doubt realising they had something to offer.
Is it possible, in this case, that the applicant was simply unsuitable for the position for a variety of reasons OTHER than age?
Conversely, Wiz, a "huge" amount of time spent with a company doesn`t necessarily equate to "huge experience" - or it may be "huge experience" not particularly relevant to another operator`s operating procedures.
VB have employed "senior" ex-AN F/A`s in the past, no doubt realising they had something to offer.
Is it possible, in this case, that the applicant was simply unsuitable for the position for a variety of reasons OTHER than age?
Evertonian
most of Carol's time would have been spent taking care of the First/Business Class passengers
and they didn't ask me to sing or dance
I think she will find, like most other ex AN staff that applied to DJ, that they wanted people with no previous experience (in certain fields) to ensure that it was their product that was being pushed to the punters. Why would they want a legacy of another carriers ideas about how to run an airline?
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Conversely, Wiz, a "huge" amount of time spent with a company doesn`t necessarily equate to "huge experience" - or it may be "huge experience" not particularly relevant to another operator`s operating procedures.
VB have employed "senior" ex-AN F/A`s in the past, no doubt realising they had something to offer.
Hope this whole mess gets cleared up... I got rejected by another airline that I applied for - most probably because I am Male (and no folks it was not the US carrier 'Hooters'), but I took it on the chin and moved on...
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Geez, you blokes have missed the point, being led merrily down the garden path by the good Kapt, who can't think outside the Ansett vs others comparison.
This isn't about experience, its about AGE!
Lets say that Carol had zero experience, and is 56 years old. Would VB give her even a second thought? NO! Of course they wouldn't. And that my friends, is discriminatory. Right or wrong, VB have been setting themselves up for a while now. All they have been waiting for is someone to take them on.
And they deserve it.
Don't believe me? Visit http://www.hreoc.gov.au/media_releases/2004/37_04.htm and see for yourself.
This isn't about experience, its about AGE!
Lets say that Carol had zero experience, and is 56 years old. Would VB give her even a second thought? NO! Of course they wouldn't. And that my friends, is discriminatory. Right or wrong, VB have been setting themselves up for a while now. All they have been waiting for is someone to take them on.
And they deserve it.
Don't believe me? Visit http://www.hreoc.gov.au/media_releases/2004/37_04.htm and see for yourself.
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7, Anti-discrimination (a) Virgin Blue and the Association respect and value the diversity of Virgin Blue's workforce. (b) In conjunction with relevant anti-discrimination legislation, those bound by this Agreement will help to prevent and eliminate discrimination on the basis of race, colour, sex, sexual preference, age, physical or mental disability, marital status, family responsibilities, pregnancy, religion, political opinion, national extraction or social origin and will endeavour to ensure that the operation of this Agreement does not directly or indirectly discriminate against Cabin Crew or any other person, having regard to the operational requirements of the duties to be performed.
If she could do the job as well as, or better than, other applicants, she should have got the job. Whether or not she has the 'wrong' kind of experience.... why not have given her a probationary period as I'm sure kost other candidates go through? If she was no good at the end - see you later! (Before anyone comments on training, I'm sure it would not be such a big deal as she has worked in CC rle before, probably all that would be required is bringing things up-to-date and compant SOP's....
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Sorry, can't help myself...
The Daily Bugle
19th August 2004
Considered boyish and pre-pubescent, they are answering their critics.
A gaggle of Year 9 computer students from Bagball Boys High are taking startup airline Koala Blew to task over recent flight crew recruitment.
“As the interviews progressed, it was obvious that Koala Blew were only interested in people with the appropriate licenses and relevant experience”, said class Chess Captain, Roy.
6 boys aged 12 to 14 claimed that despite their combined 100 hours flying computer Flight Simulator programs, they were treated with contempt and ridicule by the selection panel.
“I’ve even got the Australian Enhanced scenery ” claimed 13 year old Evan.
The boys have since been accepted into Skyballs Virtual airlines as direct entry captains on Beech 1900Cs.
“I e-mailed my flight video of Albury to Perth, and they came back in 24 hours” said a boy, who wished to remain nameless.
The class contended that Koala Blew not only discriminated against younger workers, but that the airline's group test recruitment strategy was indirectly discriminatory in that it "favoured qualification and experience".
Koala Blew head of Ground Support said that she had offered work to the local Scout group on weekends washing planes and emptying the Hangar bins, however she did acknowledge that the ability to ‘steer a plane’ was not necessarily dependant on age.
Customer Relations spokesperson Jackie said, “We have found that our passengers prefer grown men and women with licenses up the pointy end of our planes.”
19th August 2004
Considered boyish and pre-pubescent, they are answering their critics.
A gaggle of Year 9 computer students from Bagball Boys High are taking startup airline Koala Blew to task over recent flight crew recruitment.
“As the interviews progressed, it was obvious that Koala Blew were only interested in people with the appropriate licenses and relevant experience”, said class Chess Captain, Roy.
6 boys aged 12 to 14 claimed that despite their combined 100 hours flying computer Flight Simulator programs, they were treated with contempt and ridicule by the selection panel.
“I’ve even got the Australian Enhanced scenery ” claimed 13 year old Evan.
The boys have since been accepted into Skyballs Virtual airlines as direct entry captains on Beech 1900Cs.
“I e-mailed my flight video of Albury to Perth, and they came back in 24 hours” said a boy, who wished to remain nameless.
The class contended that Koala Blew not only discriminated against younger workers, but that the airline's group test recruitment strategy was indirectly discriminatory in that it "favoured qualification and experience".
Koala Blew head of Ground Support said that she had offered work to the local Scout group on weekends washing planes and emptying the Hangar bins, however she did acknowledge that the ability to ‘steer a plane’ was not necessarily dependant on age.
Customer Relations spokesperson Jackie said, “We have found that our passengers prefer grown men and women with licenses up the pointy end of our planes.”
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This isn't about experience, its about AGE!
"They (Qantas) were extremely professional and they asked me things that were extremely relevant," she said.
"It took five hours -- and they didn't ask me to sing or dance."
"It took five hours -- and they didn't ask me to sing or dance."
As mentioned earlier I was rejected by another airline that I applied to, presumably on the basis that I am male - but I dont know this for sure, and have no way of knowing - so took it on the chin and dealt with it.
Hint hint!
Grandpa Aerotart
I find it interesting that, on the one hand, ex Ansett employees who are not successfull regaining employment in Aviation think themselves discriminated against, while on the other hand, those that do so often make themselves very unpopular in their new company.
It seems so common throughout the ME and Asia...so many pilots I speak to have horror stories about ex AN pilots making fools of themselves and causing people to be very anti AN, pilots in particular.
Clearly I'm not referring to EVERY ex AN employee but they (a significant % of ex AN employees) seem to have caused a lot of bad feeling.
What was it about AN company culture that convinced it's employees that they were/are so much better than everyone else?
Standing by to be flamed BIG TIME
Chuck.
It seems so common throughout the ME and Asia...so many pilots I speak to have horror stories about ex AN pilots making fools of themselves and causing people to be very anti AN, pilots in particular.
Clearly I'm not referring to EVERY ex AN employee but they (a significant % of ex AN employees) seem to have caused a lot of bad feeling.
What was it about AN company culture that convinced it's employees that they were/are so much better than everyone else?
Standing by to be flamed BIG TIME
Chuck.
Mouths wide open, tonsils on display.
The one to the south east could swallow a fire hose.
All their PR crew photos the same. What ever happend to say CHEESE?
They recruited some blokes involved in the dispute to avoid discrimination claims, imagine a couple of senior ladies on line soon aswell.
Miss South East and co were supposed to be perks of the job.
69K a year to fly 900 hours a year with senior F/A's-
Chimbu. What companies are they? Bit general again.
The one to the south east could swallow a fire hose.
All their PR crew photos the same. What ever happend to say CHEESE?
They recruited some blokes involved in the dispute to avoid discrimination claims, imagine a couple of senior ladies on line soon aswell.
Miss South East and co were supposed to be perks of the job.
69K a year to fly 900 hours a year with senior F/A's-
Chimbu. What companies are they? Bit general again.
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Pacific Blue, Virgin Blue under fire
AAP
Pacific Blue, Virgin Blue under fire
August 19, 2004 - 3:04PM
Pacific Blue and sister airline Virgin Blue have come under attack amid claims of selecting flight attendants on the basis of their ability to entertain rather than look after passengers' safety.
Eight experienced female flight attendants are taking Virgin Blue, part-owned by British billionaire Sir Richard Branson, to the Queensland Anti-Discrimination Board after they were asked to perform a song and dance routine as part of their interview, Australian newspapers reported.
Virgin has also been accused as ageist for only employing younger attendants.
The Australian reported one of the complainants said that the Virgin Blue interview was little more than a meat market with a song and dance thrown in.
"It became very clear that if you weren't young, blonde, gorgeous and with legs up to your armpits, you had no chance," she said.
Pacific Blue chief executive Tony Marks told NZPA part of the recruitment process was to put applicants into groups of eight to 10, and they are asked to create a Pacific Blue advertisement, which they can present anyway they like.
"We ask them to demonstrate flair they can bring to the airline," he said.
Pacific Blue has a complete mix of people on their staff, with attendants' ages ranging from 18 to 42 he said.
"Pacific Blue want anyone who has the right attitude."
Mr Marks said there had been no complaints about the request for recruits to perform an advertisement as part of their interview.
"We don't prevent people from performing a song or dance during the interviews, but it is not a requirement," he said.
Flight Attendants and Related Services Association spokesman Billy Boreham said the primary role of the flight attendant was to be a safety official first who can evacuate a plane safely.
"You would want a flight attendant to cope in those situations rather than someone who can play the guitar," he said.
Airline companies were forgetting the main role of attendants, he said.
"We know they want people to embody their product, but that should be secondary," he said.
© 2004 AAP
===========================================
Pacific Blue, Virgin Blue under fire
August 19, 2004 - 3:04PM
Pacific Blue and sister airline Virgin Blue have come under attack amid claims of selecting flight attendants on the basis of their ability to entertain rather than look after passengers' safety.
Eight experienced female flight attendants are taking Virgin Blue, part-owned by British billionaire Sir Richard Branson, to the Queensland Anti-Discrimination Board after they were asked to perform a song and dance routine as part of their interview, Australian newspapers reported.
Virgin has also been accused as ageist for only employing younger attendants.
The Australian reported one of the complainants said that the Virgin Blue interview was little more than a meat market with a song and dance thrown in.
"It became very clear that if you weren't young, blonde, gorgeous and with legs up to your armpits, you had no chance," she said.
Pacific Blue chief executive Tony Marks told NZPA part of the recruitment process was to put applicants into groups of eight to 10, and they are asked to create a Pacific Blue advertisement, which they can present anyway they like.
"We ask them to demonstrate flair they can bring to the airline," he said.
Pacific Blue has a complete mix of people on their staff, with attendants' ages ranging from 18 to 42 he said.
"Pacific Blue want anyone who has the right attitude."
Mr Marks said there had been no complaints about the request for recruits to perform an advertisement as part of their interview.
"We don't prevent people from performing a song or dance during the interviews, but it is not a requirement," he said.
Flight Attendants and Related Services Association spokesman Billy Boreham said the primary role of the flight attendant was to be a safety official first who can evacuate a plane safely.
"You would want a flight attendant to cope in those situations rather than someone who can play the guitar," he said.
Airline companies were forgetting the main role of attendants, he said.
"We know they want people to embody their product, but that should be secondary," he said.
© 2004 AAP
===========================================
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Swinefund! More drivel!
Some 18 years olds get in, some don't. Some 50 year olds get in, some don't. BIG DEAL! What about the 35 year olds who miss out? Perhaps they can use the too fat or ugly argument. Some people need to take stock of their lot in life and move on.
With over 1500 cabin crew ranging in age from 18 to 50+, i really don't think the complainants will achieve ANYTHING other than expensive court costs.
Some 18 years olds get in, some don't. Some 50 year olds get in, some don't. BIG DEAL! What about the 35 year olds who miss out? Perhaps they can use the too fat or ugly argument. Some people need to take stock of their lot in life and move on.
With over 1500 cabin crew ranging in age from 18 to 50+, i really don't think the complainants will achieve ANYTHING other than expensive court costs.
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sinala, those comments are a load of crap and it just illustrates just how brainwashed you are by this idiot mob.
No sinala. The point is just how relevant those idiotic activities are. There are many out there who will make excellent FA's but dont want to dignify the stupitity that these clowns go on with.
And if you are going to tell me that this is your culture? God help you if it is!
And sperm, I would query just how many FAs you have who are over 30. Not very many I would suggest. Those who are will be tokens.
The point here is if you dont want to take part in the activities that are part of the recruitment process, then of course they are not going to employ you!
And if you are going to tell me that this is your culture? God help you if it is!
And sperm, I would query just how many FAs you have who are over 30. Not very many I would suggest. Those who are will be tokens.
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The point is just how relevant those idiotic activities are
And sperm, I would query just how many FAs you have who are over 30. Not very many I would suggest. Those who are will be tokens.
sinala, those comments are a load of crap and it just illustrates just how brainwashed you are by this idiot mob
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Gotta be fair. Thats a good answer, sinala.
But I would like to see the statistics on just how many FAs VB has over the age of 30. Because I spend a great deal of time observing them, probably more than is healthy really, but I havent yet observed one over 30.
And I do know a little about recruitment processes, including post graduate study in personnel management. And there are better ways of observing team behaviour under stress. Might I suggest to you that those younger, prettier people might have less in the way of inhibitions, and therefore perform better in those exercises you speak of. By doing so, VB get the people they are after, and have a seemingly logical explanation for it.
A generalisation, I know, but do you really think that Dickie would like to surround himself with 55 year old boilers? Dont think so. Do you really think that punters want to surround themselves with 55 year old boilers? NO. Do I want to be surrounded by 55 year old boilers. No - but I am, unfortunately. Is it illegal to discriminate - YES. Does VB discriminate - YES IMHO, but they attempt to hide it behind all of their usual bluff.
But I would like to see the statistics on just how many FAs VB has over the age of 30. Because I spend a great deal of time observing them, probably more than is healthy really, but I havent yet observed one over 30.
And I do know a little about recruitment processes, including post graduate study in personnel management. And there are better ways of observing team behaviour under stress. Might I suggest to you that those younger, prettier people might have less in the way of inhibitions, and therefore perform better in those exercises you speak of. By doing so, VB get the people they are after, and have a seemingly logical explanation for it.
A generalisation, I know, but do you really think that Dickie would like to surround himself with 55 year old boilers? Dont think so. Do you really think that punters want to surround themselves with 55 year old boilers? NO. Do I want to be surrounded by 55 year old boilers. No - but I am, unfortunately. Is it illegal to discriminate - YES. Does VB discriminate - YES IMHO, but they attempt to hide it behind all of their usual bluff.
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I remember Carol Dowling from Ansett and agree with VBs' recruitment panel that she would probably not 'fit in' at Virgin Blue. Carol possess far too much intellegence, dignity and class to fit in with the current bunch of dim-witted eye-candy at Virgin.
It is may profound hope that she is successful with her application to QF. Should this be the outcome, perhaps she should sent Huttner and Oh-My-Godfree a tape of her singing a song that starts with... "I've been to cities that never close down.."
It is may profound hope that she is successful with her application to QF. Should this be the outcome, perhaps she should sent Huttner and Oh-My-Godfree a tape of her singing a song that starts with... "I've been to cities that never close down.."
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Might I suggest to you that those younger, prettier people might have less in the way of inhibitions, and therefore perform better in those exercises you speak of. By doing so, VB get the people they are after, and have a seemingly logical explanation for it.
Do I want to be surrounded by 55 year old boilers. No - but I am, unfortunately.
But I would like to see the statistics on just how many FAs VB has over the age of 30. Because I spend a great deal of time observing them, probably more than is healthy really, but I havent yet observed one over 30.
I can also tell you that we would have, at a guess, at least 100 over the age of 30. A small percentage, well yes - but not a small number...Ralph The Bong:
current bunch of dim-witted eye-candy at Virgin
) Perhaps I am working for the wrong company? 